TonyG > New Race Car Build Thread - Page 51 - Rennlist - Porsche Discussion Forums

Notices

TonyG > New Race Car Build Thread


Old 09-13-2013, 09:21 AM
  #751
Chris White
Addict
Rennlist Member

Rennlist Small
Business Sponsor

 
Chris White's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Marietta, NY
Posts: 7,345
Default

Originally Posted by Duke View Post
It is indeed hard to beat the logic behind the LS-engine. But logic also tells me I should have gotten a 996 Cup instead and have more spare time and more money to spend elsewhere. Damn it, damn that logic to hell!

Side note. Cost and reliability aside, a 3.0l 16v turbo engine is fantastic to drive and beats pretty much any LS engine except a high end worked machine. (Comparing torque at 2500 rpm is just meaningless for a track car.)
If you buy a Cup Car then you would just be another Cup Car driver....nothing interesting in that, anybody with a checkbook can be a Cup Car driver.

If you carry out that logic to its logical end the answer is a Formula Ford (same lap times as 996 cup car) or a Formula Atlantic (15 seconds a lap faster at WGI). Used FF - $10-20K with a full set of spares. Upkeep is very inexpensive.

so, clearly we are not driven by 'logic'....
Chris White is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 09-13-2013, 09:40 AM
  #752
V2Rocket
Rainman
Rennlist Member
 
V2Rocket's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Alta Loma, CA
Posts: 39,345
Default

Originally Posted by TonyG View Post
But the Porsche engine is lighter and can move the CG of the engine back behind the front axle. So it gets the nod for handling.
you've come this far...12" wheelbase stretch!
V2Rocket is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 09-13-2013, 10:43 AM
  #753
CyCloNe!
Super User
 
CyCloNe!'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Virginia Beach, VA 23464
Posts: 3,187
Default

Originally Posted by 333pg333 View Post
Damn your logic, damn it to hell!!!
CyCloNe! is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 09-13-2013, 11:16 AM
  #754
Duke
Super User
 
Duke's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Stockholm, Sweden
Posts: 5,499
Default

Originally Posted by TonyG View Post
That's great except for the small detail that the engines need to be rebuilt ever 30 hours (which is about one full season of track time). The cost: $22k USD if you don't blow it up/badly over rev it.

You have no ideal how many friends I have that go through this every year.

And... don't forget about the sequential trans. That too gets serviced to a tune of close to $15k every season and a half +/- depending on how you shift.

And.... last but not least... racing fuel at $10/gal (vs $4/gal for pump), there's another $4000/year in fuel costs.

So say... an additional $40k per year to run the Cup Car over what I've built... which is... btw... why I built my car in the first place :-)



There are several tracks that have slow turns where I come out of the corner at 3000rpms (in order to stay out of 2nd gear). This is what gives me that advantage over a Cup Car with a sequential box and the only thing that saves me. They have to shift... I don't.

If I had a regular H pattern trans and had to shift, they would kill me just in the time it take to shift.

Once I put in a 496 LS7 with over 500ft/lbs at 3000rpms... it's gonna be bad news for them when I pull out of the turn at 3000rpms and pull to over 7000rpms w/o shifting.

TonyG
I know a few people with cup cars and the 30 hours maintenance is highly overrated. I haven't heard of anyone doing it in the more grassroots series. But yes, the 997's with seq boxes increase the maintenance costs a lot.
In Europe the Cup cars are running on regular fuel, seems odd that you run on race fuel in the US given the engine is very close to the street engine.

So yes, to run the Cup cars in official race trim and recommended maintenance it's very costly. But I think it's safe to say that it is not necessary for the average joe the same way as I don't send my Íhlins shocks for a yearly $800 service, run race fuel in my car or buy $3k worth of new slicks for each event. Would be nice though
Duke is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 09-13-2013, 02:04 PM
  #755
TonyG
Rennlist Junkie Forever
Thread Starter
 
TonyG's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 5,976
Default

Originally Posted by Duke View Post
I know a few people with cup cars and the 30 hours maintenance is highly overrated. I haven't heard of anyone doing it in the more grassroots series. But yes, the 997's with seq boxes increase the maintenance costs a lot.
In Europe the Cup cars are running on regular fuel, seems odd that you run on race fuel in the US given the engine is very close to the street engine.

So yes, to run the Cup cars in official race trim and recommended maintenance it's very costly. But I think it's safe to say that it is not necessary for the average joe the same way as I don't send my Íhlins shocks for a yearly $800 service, run race fuel in my car or buy $3k worth of new slicks for each event. Would be nice though
Concerning the fuel: I think they have 98 pump gas in Europe. In California it's only 91. And it burns more like 89. If that's the case, they the Cup engines could easily be tuned for that. Makes sense.

Tires: If you're not running a new set of Michelin's each weekend, you're not ever going to win a race. Not in the classes I race in. Not unless the top 10 cars crash or blow up.

With respect to service times: I know quite a few people that have paid a big price for not sticking to the service schedule. And I know quite a few people that have not and have gotten away with it. But for those who didn't get lucky .... not good $$$

I'm sitting in Vision Motorsports as I write this and there are a stack of Cup engines getting serviced in the engine room. Glad none of them are mine :-)

On the other side of the equation... the reason I'm at Vision Motorsports now is because the GM engine shop (RPM Motors) pulled the pan to service the main and rod bearings after 2 1/2 seasons of track time. So since they are pulling the oil pan, I took the oil pan to Vision to get a couple of bungs welded in it.

Anyway... the GM engine shop called and said there's no need to replace the main or rod bearings.. The rod and main bearings look brand new. They told me not to replace them. So with that, and the leak down between 1%-3%, the only thing to replace are the valve springs.

That would never be the case with a Cup motor with that kind of time on it.

Total service cost after 2 1/2 seasons of racing: <$750 ish

TonyG
TonyG is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 09-13-2013, 05:21 PM
  #756
TonyG
Rennlist Junkie Forever
Thread Starter
 
TonyG's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 5,976
Default

Originally Posted by V2Rocket_aka944 View Post
you've come this far...12" wheelbase stretch!
No... but I seriously thought about shortening the torque tube, cutting the firewall, and moving the engine back another 6".

The only reason I didn't is because there are some classes where the firewall can't be altered.

TonyG
TonyG is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 09-13-2013, 06:14 PM
  #757
333pg333
Addict
Rennlist Member
 
333pg333's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Australia
Posts: 18,383
Default

Originally Posted by Chris White View Post
If you buy a Cup Car then you would just be another Cup Car driver....nothing interesting in that, anybody with a checkbook can be a Cup Car driver.

If you carry out that logic to its logical end the answer is a Formula Ford (same lap times as 996 cup car) or a Formula Atlantic (15 seconds a lap faster at WGI). Used FF - $10-20K with a full set of spares. Upkeep is very inexpensive.

so, clearly we are not driven by 'logic'....
Keep going along that path to Super Kart. Wish I'd just started and stayed with these!
333pg333 is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 09-13-2013, 07:44 PM
  #758
TonyG
Rennlist Junkie Forever
Thread Starter
 
TonyG's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 5,976
Default

Originally Posted by Chris White View Post
If you buy a Cup Car then you would just be another Cup Car driver....nothing interesting in that, anybody with a checkbook can be a Cup Car driver.
Exactly.


If you carry out that logic to its logical end the answer is a Formula Ford (same lap times as 996 cup car) or a Formula Atlantic (15 seconds a lap faster at WGI). Used FF - $10-20K with a full set of spares. Upkeep is very inexpensive.

so, clearly we are not driven by 'logic'....
The only problem is that it's open wheel.

TonyG
TonyG is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 09-13-2013, 10:07 PM
  #759
Darwantae951
Retouched
Rennlist Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 10,828
Default

Originally Posted by TonyG View Post
Concerning the fuel: I think they have 98 pump gas in Europe. In California it's only 91.
98(RON), which is pretty much 93(AKI) here in the U.S.
Darwantae951 is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 09-13-2013, 10:17 PM
  #760
gruhsy
Addict
Rennlist Member
 
gruhsy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 1,956
Default

You guys don't have Chevron 94 in California? Just 91???
gruhsy is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 09-13-2013, 10:41 PM
  #761
TonyG
Rennlist Junkie Forever
Thread Starter
 
TonyG's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 5,976
Default

Originally Posted by gruhsy View Post
You guys don't have Chevron 94 in California? Just 91???
For the most part... it's 91. And it's a special blend unique to California.

It is horrible.

FYI.... There's no way you're going to be running a 2014 Cup Car on pump gas. It's got 12.9:1 compression ratio.

TonyG
TonyG is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 09-13-2013, 10:45 PM
  #762
TonyG
Rennlist Junkie Forever
Thread Starter
 
TonyG's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 5,976
Default

Originally Posted by Duke View Post
In Europe the Cup cars are running on regular fuel, seems odd that you run on race fuel in the US given the engine is very close to the street engine.
Well.. per Porsche... at least for the 2013 model (in fact for every 997 model I can find that info on....), it's setup from the factory to unleaded 98 octane.

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j...,d.cGE&cad=rja

TonyG
TonyG is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 09-13-2013, 11:44 PM
  #763
CyCloNe!
Super User
 
CyCloNe!'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Virginia Beach, VA 23464
Posts: 3,187
Default

6 years from last tuesday
CyCloNe! is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 09-13-2013, 11:53 PM
  #764
TonyG
Rennlist Junkie Forever
Thread Starter
 
TonyG's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 5,976
Default

2265lbs dry without driver.

200lbs more on the front axle than the rear. And that ratio will change once there are fluids in the car. Especially fuel.

TonyG



Originally Posted by Raymond699 View Post
congrats.

estimate of weight when done ?

Oakley Sunglasses

TonyG is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 09-14-2013, 12:39 AM
  #765
333pg333
Addict
Rennlist Member
 
333pg333's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Australia
Posts: 18,383
Default

How much do you allow for fluids? That's very light with all the additions you've made.
333pg333 is offline  
Reply With Quote

Related Topics
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
mehoff
Racing & Drivers Education Forum
108
04-18-2017 08:31 PM
centerpunch
924/931/944/951/968 Forum
698
04-04-2017 11:22 PM
Nis1973
Porsche Cup Cars
11
11-01-2016 08:48 PM


Thread Tools
Search this Thread
Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -3. The time now is 05:42 AM.


Copyright ę 1998 - 2017 Rennlist.com
 
  • Ask a Question
    Get answers from community experts
Question Title:
Description:
Your question will be posted in: