Why can't the 951 do well in autoX?
05-22-2012, 01:02 PM
#76
Rennlist Member
To be fair, you get ~20x more seat time, too.
Hell, track days can get as much as 10x more expensive, easy.
Bang-for-buck, when looked only at the seat-time-per-dollar is handily in the DE's favor.
BUT, if you're like me and don't care about autox as much in that I don't bring race tires, don't buy race gas, and don't need lodging when staying overnight, the cost-benefit starts to grey a bit.
Plus, if you need to drive to farther-away tracks, you also have to account for the disparity in fuel/mileage.
My preventative maintenance for DE's is also way more OCD than for autoxes, so that's additional time spent.
When you add up all of the $$$ spent to both purchase and prep for a DE and compare it to an autox, that seat-time-per-dollar starts to lean more towards the autox's favor.
BUT, we all know we don't do this for the money. I, for one, prefer DE's because I get more seat time. Period. Yes, they're more expensive but I don't do them as frequently anyway.
Hell, track days can get as much as 10x more expensive, easy.
Bang-for-buck, when looked only at the seat-time-per-dollar is handily in the DE's favor.
BUT, if you're like me and don't care about autox as much in that I don't bring race tires, don't buy race gas, and don't need lodging when staying overnight, the cost-benefit starts to grey a bit.
Plus, if you need to drive to farther-away tracks, you also have to account for the disparity in fuel/mileage.
My preventative maintenance for DE's is also way more OCD than for autoxes, so that's additional time spent.
When you add up all of the $$$ spent to both purchase and prep for a DE and compare it to an autox, that seat-time-per-dollar starts to lean more towards the autox's favor.
BUT, we all know we don't do this for the money. I, for one, prefer DE's because I get more seat time. Period. Yes, they're more expensive but I don't do them as frequently anyway.
05-22-2012, 01:37 PM
#77
To be fair, you get ~20x more seat time, too.
Hell, track days can get as much as 10x more expensive, easy.
Bang-for-buck, when looked only at the seat-time-per-dollar is handily in the DE's favor.
BUT, if you're like me and don't care about autox as much in that I don't bring race tires, don't buy race gas, and don't need lodging when staying overnight, the cost-benefit starts to grey a bit.
Plus, if you need to drive to farther-away tracks, you also have to account for the disparity in fuel/mileage.
My preventative maintenance for DE's is also way more OCD than for autoxes, so that's additional time spent.
When you add up all of the $$$ spent to both purchase and prep for a DE and compare it to an autox, that seat-time-per-dollar starts to lean more towards the autox's favor.
BUT, we all know we don't do this for the money. I, for one, prefer DE's because I get more seat time. Period. Yes, they're more expensive but I don't do them as frequently anyway.
Hell, track days can get as much as 10x more expensive, easy.
Bang-for-buck, when looked only at the seat-time-per-dollar is handily in the DE's favor.
BUT, if you're like me and don't care about autox as much in that I don't bring race tires, don't buy race gas, and don't need lodging when staying overnight, the cost-benefit starts to grey a bit.
Plus, if you need to drive to farther-away tracks, you also have to account for the disparity in fuel/mileage.
My preventative maintenance for DE's is also way more OCD than for autoxes, so that's additional time spent.
When you add up all of the $$$ spent to both purchase and prep for a DE and compare it to an autox, that seat-time-per-dollar starts to lean more towards the autox's favor.
BUT, we all know we don't do this for the money. I, for one, prefer DE's because I get more seat time. Period. Yes, they're more expensive but I don't do them as frequently anyway.
I don't want this to turn into a DE vs. AX thread (plenty of those over in the DE section) but for me, as someone who has raced professionally in the past, I can say I've been to the top of the mountain. After getting there and slaving at it for a few years, you start to figure out the bits and pieces you like, and the bits and pieces that are a pain in the ***. At the end of the day, what I enjoy the most is the competition aspect. I like the mindset, the pressure, getting the gears turning to figure out the fastest way around the course while keeping the car under control. I get a time at the end that tells me whether or not I went faster. And I'm usually trying to beat friends with MUCH faster (and more expensive) cars.
For $40 I get that with Auto-X, and IMO is the best bang-for-the-buck. The low cost keeps the wife happy, she can (and does) participate too and it doesn't break the bank... there's still plenty of $$$ left over for her to go shopping with
By comparison, for my wife and I to drive at a Road America DE this coming weekend I had to shell out close to $900 in entry fees for 2 days of driving.... plus hotel, food, gas, brakes, fresh tires. AX is also safe (nothing to hit), little prep work required, and it's a new track every time. Frankly I tend to get bored at DE... all I'm doing is running around in circles. If you ever get into racing (and not just DE) you'll learn that the FUN of it quickly becomes the competition, and the "going around the track" part becomes secondary. It's outsmarting the guy in front of you. Predicting where he's going, setting him up for a pass, diving inside or around the outside of someone, etc. Those are all things that are flat-out forbidden to do at a DE.If I'm on the track I'd rather be RACING, which with my firsthand experience, fully know that I can't afford to do right now. To get out there and really do it right and safely takes $$$. Heck even LeMons racing (which is the budget-est form of racing out there) can still cost a few thousand bucks for a full weekend (which works out to a couple hundred bucks per team member).
Like I said though - it all depends on your experience and what you want out of it.
05-22-2012, 03:09 PM
#79
Race Car
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: TEXAS
Posts: 4,247
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
That autocross had the longest straights and easiest slaloms I have ever seen.. Wow. Must have been designed by a corvette guy! That looked like fun.
05-22-2012, 05:25 PM
#80
Rennlist Member
Yeah I hear you. The line is fairly grey and can shift sides depending on what you value most and what your personal experience is. For all out seat time, you clearly get a LOT more with DE. Each person is different.
I don't want this to turn into a DE vs. AX thread (plenty of those over in the DE section) but for me, as someone who has raced professionally in the past, I can say I've been to the top of the mountain. After getting there and slaving at it for a few years, you start to figure out the bits and pieces you like, and the bits and pieces that are a pain in the ***. At the end of the day, what I enjoy the most is the competition aspect. I like the mindset, the pressure, getting the gears turning to figure out the fastest way around the course while keeping the car under control. I get a time at the end that tells me whether or not I went faster. And I'm usually trying to beat friends with MUCH faster (and more expensive) cars.
For $40 I get that with Auto-X, and IMO is the best bang-for-the-buck. The low cost keeps the wife happy, she can (and does) participate too and it doesn't break the bank... there's still plenty of $$$ left over for her to go shopping with By comparison, for my wife and I to drive at a Road America DE this coming weekend I had to shell out close to $900 in entry fees for 2 days of driving.... plus hotel, food, gas, brakes, fresh tires. AX is also safe (nothing to hit), little prep work required, and it's a new track every time. Frankly I tend to get bored at DE... all I'm doing is running around in circles. If you ever get into racing (and not just DE) you'll learn that the FUN of it quickly becomes the competition, and the "going around the track" part becomes secondary. It's outsmarting the guy in front of you. Predicting where he's going, setting him up for a pass, diving inside or around the outside of someone, etc. Those are all things that are flat-out forbidden to do at a DE.
If I'm on the track I'd rather be RACING, which with my firsthand experience, fully know that I can't afford to do right now. To get out there and really do it right and safely takes $$$. Heck even LeMons racing (which is the budget-est form of racing out there) can still cost a few thousand bucks for a full weekend (which works out to a couple hundred bucks per team member).
Like I said though - it all depends on your experience and what you want out of it.
I don't want this to turn into a DE vs. AX thread (plenty of those over in the DE section) but for me, as someone who has raced professionally in the past, I can say I've been to the top of the mountain. After getting there and slaving at it for a few years, you start to figure out the bits and pieces you like, and the bits and pieces that are a pain in the ***. At the end of the day, what I enjoy the most is the competition aspect. I like the mindset, the pressure, getting the gears turning to figure out the fastest way around the course while keeping the car under control. I get a time at the end that tells me whether or not I went faster. And I'm usually trying to beat friends with MUCH faster (and more expensive) cars.
For $40 I get that with Auto-X, and IMO is the best bang-for-the-buck. The low cost keeps the wife happy, she can (and does) participate too and it doesn't break the bank... there's still plenty of $$$ left over for her to go shopping with
By comparison, for my wife and I to drive at a Road America DE this coming weekend I had to shell out close to $900 in entry fees for 2 days of driving.... plus hotel, food, gas, brakes, fresh tires. AX is also safe (nothing to hit), little prep work required, and it's a new track every time. Frankly I tend to get bored at DE... all I'm doing is running around in circles. If you ever get into racing (and not just DE) you'll learn that the FUN of it quickly becomes the competition, and the "going around the track" part becomes secondary. It's outsmarting the guy in front of you. Predicting where he's going, setting him up for a pass, diving inside or around the outside of someone, etc. Those are all things that are flat-out forbidden to do at a DE.If I'm on the track I'd rather be RACING, which with my firsthand experience, fully know that I can't afford to do right now. To get out there and really do it right and safely takes $$$. Heck even LeMons racing (which is the budget-est form of racing out there) can still cost a few thousand bucks for a full weekend (which works out to a couple hundred bucks per team member).
Like I said though - it all depends on your experience and what you want out of it.
Ok so new question: I've noticed that many groups who autox tend to limit the runs to ~5 per person, and then finish by 1pm-ish. Would y'all stick around until ~4-5 if it meant an additional 4-5 runs? I'm pretty sure I would. Hell, we have the parking lot booked for the entire day (usually) so the cost would be the same.
I would also love to see more use of continuous-lapping at autoxes. Many parking lots/airfields can handle it, and if planned correctly, you can often enable an equally-efficient schedule.
05-22-2012, 07:10 PM
#81
Ok so new question: I've noticed that many groups who autox tend to limit the runs to ~5 per person, and then finish by 1pm-ish. Would y'all stick around until ~4-5 if it meant an additional 4-5 runs? I'm pretty sure I would. Hell, we have the parking lot booked for the entire day (usually) so the cost would be the same.
I would also love to see more use of continuous-lapping at autoxes. Many parking lots/airfields can handle it, and if planned correctly, you can often enable an equally-efficient schedule.
I would also love to see more use of continuous-lapping at autoxes. Many parking lots/airfields can handle it, and if planned correctly, you can often enable an equally-efficient schedule.
06-25-2012, 02:03 PM
#85
Thanks
My wife AX's with me. She's fairly new (she started AX'ing mid-2009 in her GTI, and moved over to driving my 951 in mid-2010) and while improving, is ~3 seconds behind me at most 1:00 courses. (When she started, she was 8-9 seconds behind me... over time, she's closed the gap at the same time as I have gotten faster... so she's probably picked up a solid 12-13 seconds on average per event.) She also took Women's FTD yesterday and finished 17th overall out of 32.
She said to me yesterday that if it wasn't for the fact that she SEES me driving the same car as her (we share my 951) she'd say there was no way to go faster than the times she is putting down. But she sees it being done and is now hungry. With two Women's FTD's under her belt this year, I now have a target on the back of my head...
The car can do it. Those of you struggling with a 951 - keep at it!
My wife AX's with me. She's fairly new (she started AX'ing mid-2009 in her GTI, and moved over to driving my 951 in mid-2010) and while improving, is ~3 seconds behind me at most 1:00 courses. (When she started, she was 8-9 seconds behind me... over time, she's closed the gap at the same time as I have gotten faster... so she's probably picked up a solid 12-13 seconds on average per event.) She also took Women's FTD yesterday and finished 17th overall out of 32.
She said to me yesterday that if it wasn't for the fact that she SEES me driving the same car as her (we share my 951) she'd say there was no way to go faster than the times she is putting down. But she sees it being done and is now hungry. With two Women's FTD's under her belt this year, I now have a target on the back of my head...
The car can do it. Those of you struggling with a 951 - keep at it!
06-25-2012, 03:47 PM
#86
Three Wheelin'
Thread Starter
Jim, what spring rates are you running on your 951? Which sway bars? Are you any lower than stock?
Ill have my car done in a month or so, I ripped out the interior, AC and installed fiberglass fenders to lighten the car up a bit. I assume youre running a k26/6?
Thats cool that your wife is into as well, my girlfriend wants to try it, but she's still learning stick ( at a snails pace )
Ill have my car done in a month or so, I ripped out the interior, AC and installed fiberglass fenders to lighten the car up a bit. I assume youre running a k26/6?
Thats cool that your wife is into as well, my girlfriend wants to try it, but she's still learning stick ( at a snails pace )
06-25-2012, 06:03 PM
#87
Jim, what spring rates are you running on your 951? Which sway bars? Are you any lower than stock?
Ill have my car done in a month or so, I ripped out the interior, AC and installed fiberglass fenders to lighten the car up a bit. I assume youre running a k26/6?
Thats cool that your wife is into as well, my girlfriend wants to try it, but she's still learning stick ( at a snails pace )
Ill have my car done in a month or so, I ripped out the interior, AC and installed fiberglass fenders to lighten the car up a bit. I assume youre running a k26/6?
Thats cool that your wife is into as well, my girlfriend wants to try it, but she's still learning stick ( at a snails pace )
Running the Bilstein "Escort Cup" shock/strut setup. I'll have to look at receipts to confirm the springs but they're either 300# or 350#.
Stock ride height. I *am* running 18x8 and 18x10 wheels (CCW Classics) which I imagine helps a bit with grip. Using Yokohama Neova AD-08 (180 treadwear, 235's in front, 285's out back) tires.
I didn't do any weight reduction, minus pulling out the back seat this past winter (mostly because I didn't like the look of the back seat with the rollbar in place). It otherwise has a full interior. All the carpeting, factory sound deadening, sunroof, etc. is there. Redline rennsport rollbar. Recaro Speed seats. I also put a Momo wheel in the car (I hated that stock, thin-rimmed wheel!) I did yank the rear spare (car didn't come with the pump so it was kinda worthless) and put a Cool Suit cooler back in the rear well instead.
Motor-wise, car is mostly stock. Only performance mods are the M-Tune w/the Rogue injectors, an MBC set conservatively at 13-14psi (hits 14psi in 3rd on cool days, on hot days like yesterday it seems to only squeak 13), TiAL 38mm WG, and a 3" exhaust w/cat delete and Magnaflow muffler. I am still on the stock 26/6 turbo.
Car has the factory A/C (and was working great up until about a month ago!
) I forgot - I also installed a Guard TBD in the car. THAT made a big difference over the open diff the car came with. I imagine if your car already has a factory LSD then you probably wouldn't gain much (if anything at all) to justify the costs. My car was originally optioned with LSD from the factory, but somewhere along the lines (before I got the car) it was removed for one without LSD. I put the Guard torque-biasing unit in the car back in 2010.
06-25-2012, 06:09 PM
#88
Nice!
Also interested in spring rates, setup, tyres and pressure!
I'm running Ledas with 400/650 but will change to 700/900 shortly. Tyres 225/285 Kumho R-comp. Not happy with present setup maybe cause of the tyres...?
Me and my GF runs as well and she's always the only female running so she'll be qualifying to the finals without have to fight for it... I'm glad one of us can go there anyway... ;-)
/P
Also interested in spring rates, setup, tyres and pressure!
I'm running Ledas with 400/650 but will change to 700/900 shortly. Tyres 225/285 Kumho R-comp. Not happy with present setup maybe cause of the tyres...?
Me and my GF runs as well and she's always the only female running so she'll be qualifying to the finals without have to fight for it... I'm glad one of us can go there anyway... ;-)
/P
06-26-2012, 07:25 PM
#90
Rennlist Member
Nice!
Also interested in spring rates, setup, tyres and pressure!
I'm running Ledas with 400/650 but will change to 700/900 shortly. Tyres 225/285 Kumho R-comp. Not happy with present setup maybe cause of the tyres...?
Me and my GF runs as well and she's always the only female running so she'll be qualifying to the finals without have to fight for it... I'm glad one of us can go there anyway... ;-)
/P
Also interested in spring rates, setup, tyres and pressure!
I'm running Ledas with 400/650 but will change to 700/900 shortly. Tyres 225/285 Kumho R-comp. Not happy with present setup maybe cause of the tyres...?
Me and my GF runs as well and she's always the only female running so she'll be qualifying to the finals without have to fight for it... I'm glad one of us can go there anyway... ;-)
/P