Well done rob

Wish I knew this last week!! :banghead:

Great research though. Thanks!

Awsome great find. How are they holding up?

Nice, so works on the 86 turbo?

Worth buying a pair to have just in case.

We need a stickied thread with some of this cross-referenced stuff.

These axles, the BMW reference sensors, the VW visor clips, etc.

If they are hollow, they'll snap on your first real wheel-hop with your V8 implant. The Empi Type 2 CV's make the axle the weak point.

cheap enough to cut one up to check?

who cares about V8's

If it can handle the low end torque a V8 provides then it would be perfectly fine with a high HP Turbo.

i was kidding lol

The description on Rockauto says they have:
Precision cold rolled splines and threads
100% solid precision machined axle bars
Neoprene CV boots
Stainless steel boot clamps
Premium quality Moly grease used on all joints

From what robstah was saying on saturday is that they look like a quality piece.

Just weigh it. Or pull both CV's and you'll be able to tell right away.

Just dump the clutch a few times; easiest and most fun way to test your new axles.

Nice find! I paid almost twice that at autozone and one of them snapped less than a month later

Now find some for early cars :D

Hmmm... 86 Vanagon: 95HP @ 4800RPM, 117FtLbs @ 3200RPM

I really hope these work as a bolt in replacement, that are at least as strong as the factory part.

On a separate note, it appears EMPI makes a lot of upgraded racing parts for VW based off road buggies. This includes Chromoly cages, 4340 housings, higher spline counts etc.... These are all features advertised for a certain, $600 a piece, racing axle. I even found a racing set for $400 (complete, both sides) in the 21-1/4 length.

Good find - I need to replace my axels. Any reason to believe these would be of any lessor quality than Pelican?

They will fit.. strength is a whole other issue though. The 951 part number axles are much stronger than the 944 ones, I snapped a bunch before caving and buying the real deal. I can't see any reason why they'd spec a beefier axle for something like the vanagon, they're most likely equal to or weaker than the 944 units.

cant think of a better car to stress test it than a V8

I'm guessing you took my statement of hoping these hold up as being sarcastic. It was actually meant to be sincere.

However..., since you mentioned it, I will say that manufactures do pick parts to align with the finished products capabilities. If a "better" part is available for the same cost, usually, it will be used. (This holds true for a vast majority of products engineered by large companies). The drive trains of our 944s' are a prime example of a manufacture making changes for different hp levels.

Wonder how they compare compared to the LR offerings at a pretty similar price?

http://www.lindseyracing.com/LR/Parts/944CVAXLELR.html

They're not that similarly priced. The Lindsey axles are priced each xschop's are sold as a pair.

Haha, yes, a minor oversight. Didn't think I paid $1200 for the pair but so much stuff just blurrrrss$$$ that you forget. Still, be interesting to see if there are any differences?

for a street car definitely worth a try for that price.

Xshops axles are on my short list. But then so are many of his parts...

XSChop proves he's an asset to this community thread after thread. Nice work on the axles, would you mind disclosing who is running them? Or if you are running them feel free to chime in a on quality, fit, finish, etc. I'll wait to see how these Vanagon units hold up but if it's not up to OEM spec I'll probably be looking for a pair from XS or LR. I repacked and resealed all my stock CVs 18 months ago with the redline CV fluid, flipping the cages and hoping to get a little more wear out of them. This is all back when the car was drivable :)

Got mine today, too cheap not to try. Won't know how it holds up as it is going in the race-day spare box.

Do you have an reference VW Vanagon part number? I try to find a source for Vagon CV joint in EU.

Hate to burst anyone's bubbles here but the VW cv joints are spec for 17º of movement where the porsche ones are 22º. When the cv reaches its end of movement and binds, it's going to push the snap ring off or worse bust the cage inside.
They are an "alternative" for street cars but I wouldn't put a set on the track. IMHO.. not without modification anyway.

I'll have to measure angles on the track car, but with the heavy springs, it will likely move less than a street car?

Known about these axles for a while now. Just trying to save some of you the time from my experiences with them. Believe me, I was just as excited as you guys when I discovered they would bolt up. They are good for kicking around town, daily driver stuff, but don't push them to the limit because they have a total of 10º less travel per axle than stock.
There is a writeup online somewhere comparing these to 944 to 911 axles.

If you guys are hard up for CV joints I can get all the internals for them except the outside housing for around $25 each. New inner race, balls, cage, boot and flange. I have found that the outside housing (where the bolts go thru) doesn't tend to wear all that much anyway. It's the inside race that takes the beating.

What do you mean by 'proper' ?

KYB gas-a-just? :) ...

seriously though. Just trying to help. Continue on, I'll stay out of it. :corn:

I've been running the Type 2's for well over 20K miles WITH KYB GR2's and the V8 implant.... Have not busted one yet and I get airborne at times LOL. The real damage to the CV's besides wheel-hop is the CRAPPY trans mount design from the factory. Even a new one allows too much side-to-side movement. On top of that The 17* angle is measured anywhere from parrallel axis, therefore 34* max . One hybrider (948) measured his max angle to be nowhere close.

And if you are not in the know, the type 4's are 34mm thick thru the outer race and most type 2's are 32mm. There does exist a type 2 with bigger 0.75" balls and 34mm races.

As far as the axle shafts, non-hollow Chromo 4340, thru-hardened will take loads more torsional force than a standard axle and it's "spooling" affect will save your trans over a hardened conventional axle.

Driveshaft (and differential) torque ratings have little to do with engine power and torque. The tire to road contact (corner weight and friction) defines the upper limit.

If the 4100 lb VW Vanagon can chirp the wheels on a dry road, then it would need stronger drive shafts than the 3100 lb 951. If the differences in tire rubber compound and diameter are taken into account, then the needed drive shaft strengths are about the same.

The 17º vs. 22º CV angle is obviously only a problem if the 951 needs more than the 17º, which would be worth checking. That “xschop” has been airborne with those shafts points in the right direction.

Laust

wonder if they are using 951 cv axles :)

nope. 996 turbo axles

So what's the scoop? On a stock M030 car is it worth the a shot? Seems like it is....

Will look at Pelican too...


----

Looking at Pelican, I am a lucky 1989... so I have 25 spline (vs standard 22). 25spline - 88-89 Turbo...

$90 shipped for the CV kit...

Will these Vanagon axles fit...? Will try to research

Glad you caught this. I was about to place an order but now I would rather rebuild the CV joints. I track my car, and even though the suspension is lowered and tight, I would not want to take the chance of binding. Last thing you need to be thinking about on a high speed turn is if your CV joints are going to explode like a claymore!

Read something recently about a 2012 performance car (P? Ferrari? Corvette? can't remember...) that has two different diameter axles such that they don't "wheel hop" in unison and that that helps save the axles and/or other parts of the driveline as well...

has anyone measured angle on driveline on track car? mine barely moves 1-2cm in rear on track at max.

I bought an angle finder last night for another job. Will check the angles tonight and post up what I find.

How many splines are these? Hard getting data on them... I'm willing to give it a try (car gets tech'd before each event so we would catch it, and I can rebuild the original off the car at my leisure), but with my 89, I'm worried I will buy the wrong part.

Is it my AOR transmission, or something else, that would tell me what the correct count would be?

Pelican says...

"CV Joint Kit With Boot (33 splines), 924S/944/944S All, 944 Turbo (1986-87) "
and
"CV Joint Kit With Boot (25 splines), 944S2/968 (1989-95), 944 Turbo (1988-89, from ch# 95HN151525)"

are different. My VIN is XXX951KN150510, so I think I fit into the second group!

Measurements:

Full drop is -7 degrees
Car on the ground under it's own weight +5 degrees
Wheel deflection over this distance is 4"

I can't measure total distance that the wheel will move upward without removing the spring and I'm not doing that tonight. My guess is that at the very most, the upward deflection from static is less than two inches, which is approx 6 more degrees of deflection for a total of 13 from horizontal.

I'll throw the axle on the car for the next DE and give it hell for you guys.

Last time I checked this was a forum where everyone could express their views. If you only want to hear your own view send yourself an email.

I appreciate the new information provided on how much the axles will deflect. But I am wondering how you can get an actual number of a car in motion on the track where things tend to move differently than if you just jack up one side of the car. What is the basis for these numbers?

And lastly, I am far from a nay-sayer. If these things work I want to buy them which is why I am posting on this thread! I'd like to hear from someone who has a track car who went out and drove it hard. Driving aggressively on the street is NOT (repeat NOT!) the same thing.

As mentioned in my post, measurements were taken on my lift. The total upward deflection is my best guess, based on the fact that if the wheel moves up more than 2 inches from it's static position, the tire would rub the inside of the fender, which it does not while on track.

To get the greatest upward deflection, you will need to remove the spring and jack the wheel up till you hit the bump stop. This would be the max angle, whether measured on the lift or on the track. Max droop on the lift is the max, the wheel is hanging and it isn't going to go any lower on the track.

My race car is lowered, and hence the +5 degree angle on the axle when the car is just sitting. The more you lower your car, the greater the angle will be. However, I doubt that most daily drivers are lowered more than my race car. I'll measure the angle on my daily driver 968 and see where it's at in the static position.

Rob, that'd be great! I am looking to buy some time in May. I am a newbie when it comes to axles/CVs, so I thought the splines referred to the CV 'hooking into' (somehow) the transmission. Thinking about it now, the splines probably just connect to the CV at each end, so the # of splines is irrelevant to whether it will bolt up or not!

I am in the 85.5+ category (89), so I am very interested in this!

Good stuff and thanks for the explanation. Sometimes my ADHD gets the better of me and I scan through posts quicker than I should. I can just get a floor jack under my car so your thoughts on this are reassuring.

I sent this link to TonyG and maybe he will measure his axle deflection. Seems like another renny myth is being busted about the 17* CV's not working on the 944/951 suspension. The spline count has nothing to do with fitment onto the stub shafts. Just like everything else the German makers do with parts interchanging and cost reduction, going to a 25 spline was just an off-the-shelf solution for parts availability from BMW as they had a ton of them with the same Porsche CV Bolt PCD (86mm). As far as the axle shafts holding the V8 torque without sheering, only time and wheel hop will tell.

Textbook....

http://944hybrids.forumotion.com/gal...le-pic_441.htm
http://944hybrids.forumotion.com/gal...le-pic_442.htm
http://944hybrids.forumotion.com/gal...26-pic_444.htm

Just checked the angle of the axle in my daily driver 968 (stock ride height). The angle is +1, which is 4 degrees less than my lowered race car. YMMV:bigbye:

Not to side-track too badly but do you guys go with making sure the holes are clean and just torquing to spec, or are you guys using locking bolts to keep the axle from backing out? Links to the latter if that is what is recommended... I am going to go with the Vanagon replacement in May.

Caddy CTS-V

When's your next DE?

Thanks!

So NO issues what so ever? Wow!.. Makes you wonder if the companies sell the same axle under a different part number for our 944's and make all that extra $$ for nothing...? Wouldn't suprise me.

It should surprise if that wasn't happening.

That link doesn't link to the part # quoted (90-6805).

Google works and I see them on amazon and other places. So far I have $75 shipped... is that the best one can do?

*edit*

shipped from rockauto with discount 92015847578143 is $66.67... That's not ominous...

*edit*
63.xx shipped from impartpartsguy... $55 if you order over $149 and get free shipping...

Ben,

I had the same confusion - you have to look at the part number in the picture itself.

I just ordered three of these buggers - cheap enough to have a spare for track days. If I am killed by a cloud of shrapnel at the track please someone reply to this thread with "he should have known better".

Anymore updates, time to replace my cv's pronto!

Mine is still in my spare box, have yet to need to pull it out.

Has Tony been racing with his? I wonder how these will hold up

Ben, I will donate $10 to the cause of cutting one up to see whats inside the boots and if the shafts are solid.

Anyone else what to drop a dime for the cause???

What does one of these VW axles weigh fully assembled?

Axle Alternative
 

I wanted to make a decision today on whether to pull the trigger on these, so I called EMPI and spoke with Bill Shaw, (Product Development Manager). He was very informative and certainly way over my head in most respects during our conversation. I’m an amature when it comes talking mechanical tech specs, but I try to learn before I undertake something.

The primary issue we discussed was regarding the full range of Maximum Angularity of different types of CV joints which is a fact in question here. According to Bill at EMPI, some of the information floating around on the web regarding this is wrong, (surprize). Numerous sites on the web selling CV axels reference to different types of CV joints and they list them as: Type 1 = 12 degrees, Type 2 = 17 degrees, Type 4 = 22 degrees, and 930 = 25 degrees.

Bill states there is no such thing as Type 1, Type 2, Type 4, or 930 with these limitations. The type of joint we have on the 944 is the same thing the VW’s use which is like the EMPI 90-6805 that robstah started this thread with. These are Cross Grooved Joints, and, all Cross Grooved Joints have a full range Maximum Angularity of 25 degrees. If you look at this guys site CV Joints 101, he shows pictures of the so called Types. But all of the types are the same except for sizes. Bill read out of the SAE book and verified that there are not different types of Cross Grooved Joints with different limited MA’s. The only difference between Cross Grooved Joints is size of the joint and length and thickness of the bar.

We also discussed other things like the Axel Bars. EMPI bars are solid, heat treated and are made in Anaheim CA. The joint parts are made in China at a facility which they own, and parts are forwarded to Anaheim for assembly on the bars. I have an 89 turbo and I measured my dissembled axel. The EMPI bar is 1-1/8” overall, and the original oem bar on my car is 1”. The length of the oem bar is 24-1/8”, and the EMPI 90-6805 is 24-1/4”. EMPI’s tolerance is within 1/8” so no problem with the 90-6805 on late 944's. Bill believes that EMPI’s high quality standards meet the oem bar standards on our cars. With the additional 1/8” thickness, maybe they are better. The only issues they see breaking any of their axles are side stepping, and hard launches on STI’s and such. But do that with any axel 6-8 times, you're likely to break something, an axle or something in the TA that’s more expensive. FWIW, I didn’t perceive Bill was trying to sell anything at all. He genuinely portrayed his confidence and information. He’s been there for 20yrs+.

I’m replacing the originals on my car @ 95,000mi. Only the driver’s side is really in dire need as you can see in the pic, but at this price both are getting done. I tend to agree with the theory I’ve read somewhere on RL that the driver’s side usually goes first probably because the exhaust heat being close to the driver side joints dries out the grease faster. I never did any maintenance on the CV’s except inspect the boots. Wouldn’t you know it, after I repeatedly hear some single clunks in first and second gear, I look to see the boot is split wide open next to the TA. Had I followed some sort of a service interval of like re-packing every 50,000mi, they would probably still be good.

I placed my order today at Parts Geek where robstah bought his. The pair was $127.65 incl. shipping. I’ll report in over time and let you know how they are doing.

I noticed the VW Vanogen axle felt heavier than the original turbo axle that it replaced, didn't weigh it.

Thanks for bringing these up! I'm stoked that I'm getting new Cv's for this kind of money. Hopefully they'll time test themselves true. Bill said no reason we shouldn't see 100-150k miles out of them, which would be on par with the factory oem's.

I wouldn't count on EMPI revising anything towards the Porsche market. I asked him why in their cross referencing there were no Porsche's listed and he claimed it just wasn't part of their market. He talked like GLK/Lobro being one of the largest manufactures sort of owns the Porsche market. Good for us so the prices remain low.

Btw, from the information given, it looks like these may well measure up to original factory spec, but if your tracking with high power, than probably want to look into some of the chromolys.

If you have an accurate way of weighing these a comparision between the EMPI and an OE axel would be awesome. Thanks!

I don't really have any means of weighing aside from the bathroom scale. If I come across something more suitable, will do.

This theory was debunked by myself and TMS and probably many others that immediately broke axles after being replaced with brand new units with fresh grease, boots, etc. Same Side - Drivers. It was when we stabilized the transmission from moving excessively side to side that stopped this. Proven to me with at least 10 launches at the drag strip with no breakage after the trans fix. So in my case and a few others, heat and wear were not the issue for broken cages on the drivers side. It was excessive movement of the trans axle that broke the cages. Axles were never broken, just he cages.

agreed

accurate enough for me, if you get a chance to do it. do it by itself and then (with you holding it - you not holding it) to see if theres any difference with your scale.

If you’re talking about failures related to drag racing and hard launches, we’re on different pages. Immediate breakage issues after new installs or rebuilds, or, drag racing and hard launches changes the context. Although you found something that is working for you, there are many factors that can come into play under these conditions that can cause problems with cages and axels. It’s truly amazingly you have not destroyed something inside the transaxle having removed a considerable buffer.

I was relating to failures that occur over normally extended periods of time and more typical driving. It was my intention that added heat from the exhaust could be a contributing factor, but it wasn’t to say it would be a singular cause to result. Regardless, your solution of added stabilization to the TA doesn’t really answer why the driver’s side seems to fail more often than the passenger side. It does say you are stopping a failure under a particular set of very extreme circumstances. But the question still remains as to why the ratio of failure isn’t more equally distributed to the passenger side whether it is drag racing, road racing or typical Porsche driving over extended periods.

In my case the issue appears to have started with a torn & separated dust boot along with a piece missing. This allowed dirt and dust contaminates to be absorbed by any grease that wasn’t expelled and the joint dried out and was compromised. I noticed that on both joints on the same axle bar, the grease was less congealed and thinner than it should be, leading me to think it had broken down over time with heat being a contributor, and or a normal break down in the elements.

Sure it does. The transaxle always twists a certain way when under acceleration, and over time as the already loose tolerance trans mount wears, it allows more movement. This movement is always the same, twisting more and more as the mount wears, and binds the cage at angles it cant handle. This angle twists and moves laterally in a way that puts more stress on the drivers side. That is why the drivers side is more apt to break.

This^

I have also looked into another reason the axle cages break after many miles and I have come to the conclusion that the cage and ball wear gets to the point where the balls extend past the cage enough to become dis-engaged.

I found this when I heard the axle hitting the outer hub. I am working on a delrin plug that will limit the total lateral travel of the axle shaft so it will remain in the optimum position even when worn.

The cage on my CV hasn't broken in fact it looks to be in pretty good condition. Although in time it may have if I hadn't caught it now. But had it gone onto break, it would have been for the lack of lubrication, and not just typical wear. At 95k I don't have any evidence that there was any excessive side way movement. The end of the axles are unscathed and the wheel hub still has grease in it nice and smooth. The picture is from the CV joint next to the TA. No way the axle could hit in the TA hub because its more funnel shaped and way to deep.

No offense but there is some conjecture here. All things being relatively equal on both sides of the TA, how do you establish everything always twists in a certain way? How do you know that the movements are always the same and how is it known that it always puts more stress on only the driver’s side? For all practical purposes, my TA mount looked as good as new. After I cleaned it up good, I could not find any cracks or striations of any kind. This is my point.

Regarding cages breaking, there are some known issues with breakage sometimes when people buy a kit and rebuild themselves. Bill & I discussed this and the importance of re-assembling the cages correctly when repairing the joint. Although it’s relatively simple, there is a way the Cross Grooved Joints are to be reassembled that can be overlooked. Because Cross Grooved Joints are cut at an angle, unlike a Double Offset CV Joint which the grooves are cut perpendicular, (or parallel with the axel bar), the orientation of the Outer Housing to the Inner Race must be correct. If not, the cage will definitely break. Attached is a PDF specifying how to re-assemble the joint.

Because it does. centrifugal forces, velocity vectors and all those fancy things taking into account rotational and transversal pulls on the transmission when considering the torque from the motor twisting the whole assembly and the "pull" of the axles. Assuming this is happening when accelerating forward and not going in reverse. How exact would you like me to be in explaining this? Same angle and direction of deflection relative to intensity using stock mounting points and tolerance that gets looser with age on both ends. Damage varies with intensity depending on drivers right foot and, well, left foot too, hence your nice looking cages. Things are not equal on both sides of the TA.

95ONE - Thanks for explaining, guess I should have been clearer. I was looking for something more tangible.

I know that engines and trans-axles shift, (within the tolerance of design). Was just trying to find out, in this case, what is causing things to wear more in one direction than the other. This was designed by Porsche to move laterally. Given that is happening within the designed tolerances, was really trying to find out what if any other parts are wearing and contributing.

Sounds pretty tangible to me.

Using a digital bath scale, both the original oem & EMPI weigh about the same, i.e. 13lbs.

So who'll be the first to machine up some titanium axles :biggulp:

Great thread!

I found this thread searching for information about installing 944 axles onto a Vanagon and thought I would throw in my $.02.

Just to be clear, Vanagon axles are 21.25 (540mm) inches long. I think that lejams meant that the 944 axles measured 21 1/8, not 24 1/8.

Anyway, some of us in the 4WD Vanagon Syncro world have lifted our vans for better off road performance and are looking for a CV joint with a greater “Maximum Angularity”. The internet reports that the type 2 CV’s on a Syncro are rated at 17*, whereas the type 4 CV’s on the 944 are rated at 22*.

Thanks to lejams we now know that EMPI claims no variation in maximum angularity exist between the different types of CV’s. However, I replaced one of my stock Syncro axles with the EMPI 90-6805 and noticed that my maximum suspension droop (before the CV starts binding) increased by over an inch with the EMPI axle. So apparently there is some difference in maximum angularity, just maybe not with EMPI CV’s. The EMPI axle also measured 2-3mm thicker than the original Syncro axle. This all seems like good news for those of you running EMPI Vanagon axles on a 944, as they seem to offer a thicker (stronger?) shaft and greater maximum angularity than the original Vanagon shaft.

However the general wisdom of the Syncro community is that EMPI axles and CV’s are not to be trusted off road and are breaking at a significantly higher rate than the OE (GKN/Lobro) axles. These failures are in off road conditions, many times with one wheel off the ground and diff locks engaged and not while on a track (ha!) or daily driving. Being that AAA does not come get me if I break an axle up some Jeep trail I have just bought a pair of new Lobro 944 axles for my Syncro. Ironically new GKN Syncro axles are not available. Once they arrive I’ll compare them to the EMPI and OE Syncro axles and report back.

I found correct part on Parts Geek. Any track use updates on these axles? I need new ones and would rather swap than rebuild. Thanks, Mike

Great first post, and welcome!

Thanks for correcting my error on the axle length. You are correct and it should have read 21-1/8”.

Interesting about your findings on the differences between the EMPI & GKN/Lobro’s. You may find it beneficial to talk with Bill @ EMPI sometime. Apparently, although the SAE standard on all Cross Grooved Joints as Bill read from the book, is a maximum angularity of 25 degrees. Maybe globally not all manufactures comply for one reason or another? I don’t know under what circumstances, if or how, SAE standards interact globally, but in accordance with your finding, sounds like there can be differences.

I don’t have many miles on the EMPI’s yet, but so far so good. However, even though your use is off-roading, which probably neither manufacture intended to warrant, I’m a little disappointed to hear that the EMPI’s are not meeting some of the same stresses as the Lobro’s.

How are you guys bracing the trans?

FYI, had these axles for about 200 miles. Dynoed and layed down some rubber. No issues and don't foresee any either. Great bang for the buck!

Cheap Axles
 

Again, any track use updates on these axles? Thanks

Mine is in! (passenger side). I plan on doing a track event this season (besides the 3 I already did before having to replace the head).

I used a tube with rod ends. Random mounting points. I think there is an old pic in here somewhere of mine. A few others have done it will just some metal and drilled out holes in a bar to mount to the frame and trans. A little searching should find some pics on here.

I'm not sure if it's been mentioned yet. I havnt read the whole thread......



I broke a gnk axle a couple weeks ago at the strip. It was barely used, probably 1000 miles and 15 passes.

So... Rather than exchange it for another of the same I ordered 3 of the vanagan axles. I even ended up with a credit left over.


So onto my point. I measured the cages on both and the vanagan axles are .060 thicker (width) at the weakest point. The thickness on the height is the same. I havnt measured the ball bearings yet. The shaft itself doesn't look to be thinner, the only difference I can tell is paint thickness.

For now I'll have them as backups, unless I get time to swap them today, but I'm sure I'll be putting them to the test soon.

I should be able to get the car into the 1.6-1.7 sixty foot range, which will really test them out.

Thanks for the info and the thread. If nothing else the replacements are now less than a third of the cost!!!!

They seem to be holding up fine on my car. And I drive it pretty hard.
I do have solid trans mount that propably helps.

So the axle still failed with an auxiliary transaxle mount? Did the axle fail in the same way others have, ie: didn't break in an uncommon location?

Yeah, I was surprised. I spent two hours thinking I broke the trans, then finally looked. It exploded the outer cage. I should also say that I was VERY aggressive this night!!

I still think the shaft can move to far laterally and expose the ball bearing too much. I will probably add the delrin buttons to the spares and then see. I'm sure the trans will not be far behind at this point.

It safe to say that you're putting more strain on your car's drive train, on a regular basis, than anyone else on this forum. Not that I want you to keep breaking parts, but it would be interesting to see if you continue to break the CV cages and if the failures stop when the vanagan axles are used.

I installed the driver side today and made a moderate pass (2.0 sixty foot) just now and all is good. I'll update as I go.

Umm, no.... Broke on fourth run.

Broke the shaft right where the small end of the boot connects.

Fortunately I brought a spare and a battery ratchet. Took five minutes to swap out. I'm in the lanes now but I'm launching easy on this pass.


So IMO, the joint is better but the shaft sucks. I may see if I can meld the two together.

Is the axle dimensionally the same size? Can you just pop the snap rings off, and swap shafts?

We'll see soon enough.

I've been having axle problems too... a lot.

1) I broke 2 brand new GKN axles assemblies in 13 laps on the track. Both inner CV boots broke and both cages broke.

2) I get custom axles made. They last a few races then the inner boot tore and the inner race extended too far in and popped out. This exact same thing happened with 4 of the custom axles I had made.

Always on the trans side. Never a problem on the wheel side. That's a total of 6.

And I run a solid transmission mount. The trans doesn't more.


You can see the inner race damaged where the axle went into the stub axle on the transmission side too far as it popped out.

It's as if there's nothing stopping the axle from traveling too far.

One thing to note was about the cages. On the GKN motorsport axles I ran for years without problems... you can't pull off the cage from the inner race without removing the inner race from the axle. This would automatically limit how far the axle could travel preventing it from popping apart.

On the stock GKN and the custom axles I had made up... this wasn't the case. If you pull the balls out, the cage will slide right off of the inner race.

I'm going to have some custom cv joints fabricated up that duplicate the GKN motorsport axles as well as tapping the ends of the axles and threading in a bolt to use it as a travel limiter so this problem won't keep happening.


TonyG

Tony,

I'm not sure if you read any of what I wrote but I have the same idea as you. I am going to tap the end of the shaft and have a piece of delrin threaded and cut to fit to the end to take up the slack.

Just an FYI if you thread a bolt in it will make quite a clink every time you engage the clutch. I know ;)

I haven't taken one of these apart yet, but will a spring work instead of a solid spacer? It will allow movement, but keep the shaft from migrating out of the desired location.

I'll take your word for it but it doesn't technically make sense. The axles shouldn't move laterally due to load since each ball/race is at an opposite angle adjacent ball/race. Thus the lateral loads are cancelled out.

TonyG

Doesn't work that way. There must be some inertia that sends the axle outward. I've had a couple where the shaft would move all the way out and smack the stub shaft making a good racket

I don't think you could fasten a spring properly.

Is it possible to retrofit a 996 axle? It's a bit of a different design - the stub axle in integrated on one side. The CV joints are also larger than 951 size.

Van, I'm not familiar with them.you could change the inner flange easily but the outer would require some machining of the banana arm to fit a larger stub.

I am looking into some of the fwd Audi axles to see if the vanagon joints can be fit to the Audi shaft on the outside at the very least.

Some of the Audi axles are a torsion design and may hold up better for what I'm doing.

I am also looking into some BMW shafts and flanges.

The axle moving laterally due to inertia is different than a torque applied to the axle causing the axle to move laterally.

My point is that the the torque of the engine doesn't cause the axle to move to one side or the other. This is impossible because of how the bearing races in the cv joints are designed. One race is at x angle and the next race is at the opposite of x angle, and so on... Thus any lateral (side to side) movement caused by torque applied to the axle are cancelled out. So there won't be any movement.

Now it is possible to assemble the cv joints incorrectly so that this (as well as binding) can occur. But if they are assembled correctly... the side to side torque is cancelled out.

Anyway... I think we should have axles that have cv joint cages designed so that they cannot move past the race. This will stop any excess lateral axle travel and will stop the axles from popping out of the cages (again... this is how the GKN Motorsport CV joints are designed.

TonyG

TonyG

this is an excellent thread, thanks robstah for this info.

But I have one junior question : )

Is the right axle shaft assembly the same part as the left side on all cars... including my 951?

I got confused looking at this to buy one for my right side (it's clicking) in Canada :

http://www.autopartsway.ca/PartList..../pagenum1/tabS

If you click on the link, there is one made by FEQ that says Rear Axle Shaft Assembly only.

There are also the ones by EMPI, one for the right side, and one for the left side, with different part number.

There is also a 12$ difference between the FEQ and the EMPI

Tony, I think the reason they move to one side (in my case the outside) is due to wear..

For everybody:

I did a bit of disassembly yesterday and suite a bit of measuring. I took a few photos as well.

I measured the vanagon axles and also an axle I borrowed from Kyle (mooreboost)

They both were machined down out toward the joint area.

I then took apart a gnk 951 axle and found it was not turned down. Iirc the replacement axles were .945 ish where I broke it and the 951 axles are 1.080 ish all the way down. See photos for exact measurements.

Before I remebered that I had a 951 axle hanging around, I assembled the borrowed axle (I'm assuming it may be a 944na axle, or some rfpkacement) I was able to install the good vanagon joints onto the shaft.

I then found the gnk axle that had been moving too much laterally in the past and making noise (reason it was replaced. In I was able to install one side of the joint . The other end of the shaft was too mushroomed.

So I'll VE looking for a different shaft to install the beefier vanagon joints onto. This may be the final solution as the vanagon joints do not have the cage machined out as far like the 944na? And the 951 gnk cages are..

See photos for some detail;

broken shaft
http://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l1...t/69C36FD3.jpg

vanagon joint vs 944 and 951
http://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l1...t/BF8F5C22.jpg

assembled on 944 shaft
http://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l1...t/1215A442.jpg

vanagon and 944 na measurement at breakage point
http://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l1...t/56A9E74A.jpg

951 gnk at same location

http://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l1...t/5F2407AC.jpg

It wouldn't be that difficult to have a couple of axles machined. Make them out of chrome moly. Then for sure, the only thing you would have to worry about breaking is the joint.

Mark, I've never broken a 951 shaft. They are 1.080 all the way down. I don't think they will break so really no need to re-invent the wheel here.


for absolute clarification..
My final solution to be able to get the strongest axle possible out of readily available parts is:

951 thicker shaft
Vanagon joints
delrin buttons threaded into the end of the shaft to eliminate excess lateral movement

the only real weak link I can see is the vanagon cages. They havn't been fully tested yet. Those cages could be machined out of a stronger less brittle material pretty easily.

D'oh. I knew that :)

Glad the 951 shafts are the direct fit!

Anyway,

The delrin button sounds like a good idea. But I still can't work out in my head why the shaft moves so much.

When you launch the car, and squat the rear suspension, is it possible that when the rear axles straighten out, they become almost to long?

I don't think so...actually no..

The lateral movement I have witnessed with the worn gnk that has the mushroomed end. I watched as Dave went forward and backward engagining and disengaging the clutch. The axle just went straight outward every time making a huge clunk. I think that after the cage becomes worn in that they naturally migrate to the running position. Once there is too much wear they go further than wanted. This is my theory..

If I had known now what I know, I would have flipped the axle to see if it would have then moved inward to confirm.

I have a spare set of axles, so I'll have to check.... But,

What if you just flipped one of the joints, running it inside out? Maybe the way the grooves are machined for the balls/cage forces it out under load? Flipping a joint might make it stay centered, but still allow it to flex like its supposed to?

If its mushrooming steel, maybe delrin won't be strong enough?

:confused:

I can agree with that. I'm obviously willing to sacrifice a trans at some point.

All I was trying to do by posting my findings is to help everyone see the limitations.

I do still think these axles are a great idea for most people. That probably didn't come out like that in my track post after breaking one.

The joints are still stronger and not a bad idea just to swap onto the 951 shaft.

I'll look into his axles. I hadn't seen the thread.

I certainly didn't mean to derail the thread and put a negative spin on them. Hell, I'm still running the spare one I bought in my car now.

They are a great deal!!!!

Thanks again for the finding of these..

Well, I just ordered an 86 Vanagon Axle shaft for my right side. Paid 80.42$ shipping included. I wasn't able to find the Empi part in Canada, so I decided to go with the FEQ brand. I did read bad things on the web about the quality of the brand, but for 80$, why not. There is also a 12 month warranty on these, if it brakes in 6 months, i'll get a new one : ) I'm too lazy to do a rebuilt right now, and I'm so curious to see if it will actually work.

Even with the OEM ones, I broke 5 axles in 5 years, but with 3 different 944's. So if they always brake, why should I pay full price for oem. I paid a mechanic to rebuilt the one I'm changing last year, and it's already making a ton of knocking noise.

80$ compare to 355.96$, easy and quick to replace. If it last me one year, I'm happy. Heck at the price, I can get 4 FEQ axles shafts for the same price for one (GKN).

https://www.autopartsway.ca/PartDeta...33-1835581/FEQ

I installed this 80$ FEQ axles made for the 1986 Volks Vanagon for the right side of my 951.

It was a direct fit. Took me me 25 min. to do the job.

Came with new bolts (but I used the ones that where already there), new gaskets and axle grease.

I tried the car afterward, and went for a hard drive.

So far, absolutely no problems. I'm actually happy, I feel like I just saved 300$. You know how these cars can get expensive.

So direct fit, 80$, no noise, car runs great.... what can you ask for more.

As I mentioned in my last post, I paid 150$ to rebuilt on side of that right side axle shaft last year.

Now for 80$, I get a full new one, no core charge, one year warranty.

Thanks robstah, you made my day.

Eric

Does these axels fit 86 Turbos also?

Judging from Eric's signature. Yea;)

I need the late model axles. What part number is the vw equivilent? any help is apreciated.

Watch those CV's closely, either Empi or their suppliers have been sending out CV's with cages that slip over the inner star races. I'm not sure what the Vanagon CV's are designed like in that perspective. The GKN type 2's have never missed a beat.

As far as axles go, if it is not of a a material that "spools" like 4340 then your trans is taking an instant beat down under instant torque and good wheel bite.

so which axles should I go with? I will be in the states next week and want to order a pair but not sure which ones to go for. cheap tested ones will do if I can find a part number, otherwise the lobro ones from pelican are 220 each. please help

no drag racing just some track days and some street. my car has late rear end so what is the part number? parts geek doesn't have a phone and can't find it on thier site.

Look at Post #1 of this thread

so my 951 is an 86 but has a late model (87 or later) rear differential and offset. I thought the later model (87 and beyond) was different than the 86 which is why I keep asking. Now I think the part number listed in the early posts will work as when they were referring to the early model it was the 83s or something. Could someone please verify that the 87 and 86 axles are the same and should work on my car?

On his post, Rob signature says he has an 86 and are working well for him. I have an 89 and they are a perfect fit.

Installed two axels this past weekend. Did a bunch of hard driving and everything looks good. Should be going to Lime Rock or Watkins Glen or both in September and will report back. So far so good.

I had my mechanic install 2 about a week ago and all is good. will be doing a few days at Mosport and possibly 2 at the Glen. Car is running well so far:)

Just ordered a set, thanks Rob for finding these. :thumbup:

Installed one 2k ago. Running fine, and I've been beating the crap out of it.

^ what are you beating it with? a midget :D

Hey, Midgets need love too.......

For those worried about angles ...
01-98-5084-B EMPI OFF-ROAD T-2 CV JOINT ONLY, 100mm, EACH $ 46.95
^ Max angle of 25 degrees

01-87-9469-B EMPI 930 CV JOINT ONLY, 108mm, EACH $ 51.95
01-87-9469-K EMPI 930 CV JOINT & BOOT KIT, 108mm, EACH $ 75.95
^ Max angle of 21 degrees - made for 930, if something can be done to adapt to the 108mm O.D. since 944s use 100mm O.D., if I'm not wrong

Plus many more options here... http://www.dansperformanceparts.com/...susp%20IRS.htm

Just found the above link on thesamba.org or something similar. Just copying someone else's research here for reference.

mine have been fine with about 6 or 7 hard trackdays at Mosport.

just ordered a pair. I killed my passenger side axle the last track outing. Heard a bang then something that sounded like a woodpecker. Found almost every bolt on the transaxle side of both axles was loose or out completely. Axle itself appears intact so probably the inner cage of the CV is toast. This is a great find BTW

What type of bolts do the axles come with?

When you say, fits later models, doe sthis mean it will bolt right up to a '86 851?

Yes

As an update I pulled both my axles last nite and inspected them to look for broken cages or wear. No obvious signs of problems and they articulated smoothly. The passenger transaxle side CV was almost bone dry though. I re-greased it and swapped the axles L to R to reverse the stress on the units. Went to the track today and my noise was gone for now

Hi, what's your thinking behind this?

(Back when I was crewing, our driveshafts were marked L and R so we couldn't fit them in the wrong side.)

My understanding is that driveshafts don't like stress reversals, it's usually considered best to keep them loaded the same way. Otherwise they fatigue more rapidly.

IIRC, Carroll Smith mentions this in "Engineer to Win".

Of course if CV's are more likely to fail than the shafts, that's another story!

Cheers,
Mike

I made the assumption that the noise I heard was due to binding in the CV, and that the wear would be early and not catastrophic - no visible signs. By reversing the torque I was hoping that the worn axle may have enough life left for 1 track session (today) without failing. I have already ordered new EMPI units. It worked for now

4340 alloy axles are less prone to the torque twist memory and can be flipped.

well I got mine and tried to install them today (EMPI). Mine is an early offset 86 and they don't fit. They are maybe 1/4" too wide in the axle to clear the mounting cups. I can attach the outer CV joints to the wheelside but the length of the actual axle will not clear the cup on the transaxle. It is a smidge too wide.

Robstah has them on his 86 951 early offset, maybe he has suggestions to help. I plan to get these myself this spring.

Just to be clear, these will fit both passenger and driver sides right? They are the same size?

Yes, same on both sides. I managed to get the van axles on my late offset car although they were a smidge longer than the old axles. I had the car on a lift and compressed the suspension with a floor jack and 2x4 to get the axle past the cup on the transmission.

The new axles performed nicely for my last 3 track days.

Rich

You just need to angle it, I managed to get it on the passenger side with the trans cooler lines in the way :thumbup:

I just broke one of these axles today. The axle shaft broke right inside the inner boot. I didn't really abuse it more than I have before but I guess it had enough.
I'd like to try the Lindsey motorsport axles but they are just so much money.
I'll order another empi axle for now.

May want to use the OEM shaft with the empi cages. Blown 944 did this and had very good results.

I wish I had the OEM shafts.

Sucks but I'm not surprised. I think I only got 3-4 runs out of them.

There is a set in the NA forum.

I have a spare set of the 4340 axle shafts. They just need new CV's. I am weary of The Empi CV's because some have been mis-marked from the various suppliers and their cages slip over the inner race (off-road). I'd let these go for $325 shipped US -only. Just PM

I was either gonna try that or disconnect the rear shock (no torsion bars on mine) to jimmy it into place

I'm thinking there must be differences in these axles. After breaking the axle and replacing it with a stock one using the Empi cv's, I today broke the cage in the passanger inner cv.
I'm pretty sure I'm not making the power Sid is and his are holding up.
I have a solid trans mount so its not because of it moving.
Are the stock cv's maybe stronger?

are you getting a lot of wheel hop?

There may be some differences as I have found with other worldpac parts.

I am still wondering if you are getting some trans sway even with the solid mount. I am usign just a rubber mount and a brace off to the passenger side.

It could be driving habits as well. I don't really "dump" the clutch, I stil slip it, albeit agressively.

No wheel hop, both times it broke was when I short shifted into second.
I don't really slip the clutch shifting into second.
I'll look into adding a brace on the bottom of the tranny.

The brace is to stop the transaxle from moving left / right??

It keeps the transaxle from rotating on the torque tube center line, but basically yes, it keeps the output flanges from moving right/left.

Empi axles
 

I lowered the trans by unbolting the trans cross mount which allowed enough lateral movement to install axles. Re-torque the bolts to only 34lbs. I have now used the axles for one track day and they performed well.

Yes, good point. In my 1988 TS I have the 30mm tb's, which are 330 effective spring rate, elephant SP bushings, powerflex polyurethane inner TArm bushings and I am using the polyurethane filled stock trans mount. No wheel hop. Hope they last!

Busted the inner cage on the drivers side late yesterday afternoon at Barber. This was a 944 part that had been on the car for years with occasional greasing. I plan on installing the vanagon part that I bought long ago but am trying to decide if I'm going to install it whole, or just use the CV's on my porsche shaft.

I have three track days on my set now and no problems even after some very spirited driving.

Just received another one which I am keeping as a spare when I go to the track.

Do you guys know of an inexpensive replacement option for the early cars?

Anyone been running these for 968 boxes w/ unequal length shafts?

Someone in another post mentioned that EMPI makes a chrome moly cv joint. Does anyone know if these will fit the 25 spline axles used on the TS? I guess I can call EMPI and find out. Thanks, Mike

Mike, to my knowledge the Cr-mo EMPI CV's do not work with the porsche shafts since they have different spline counts. sombody feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

I can't correct you on this but i do have a question:

Is there anyone who ships these axles to Europe? At this moment they do not provide shipping to the Netherlands and the axles here are still 250euros a piece..

Ok so i broke my left inner CV joint today. :banghead:
1 new CV joint in sweden costs around $175
I don´t know the condition of the other CV joints on the car.
So i´m thinking it´s cheaper to buy the hole kit from the states like this one
http://www.ebay.com/itm/EMPI-90-6805...2&vxp=mtr#shId

or is this better?
http://www.ebay.com/itm/GSP-AMERICA-...c91c1d&vxp=mtr

is it the same to both left and right side

Edit
i found this but it´s for 33 splines
http://www.ebay.com/itm/EMPI-98-5084...d082c9&vxp=mtr
To bad :(

It´s very quiet in here :)

I found the axles in germany for around the same price and i avoid customs fee :)
Only problem is that i don´t know if it´s EMPI who makes them
http://www.ebay.de/itm/2x-Antriebswe...item4843e9fc50

http://www.dansperformanceparts.com/...susp%20IRS.htm
INTERESTING SITE

So, how do you remove the passenger side CV axle? I have no room with the tranny cooling lines on the way. Where is the wiggle room at? Thanks

The way I did it was to drain the tranny and remove the cooling loop. Takes about 15 minute to get it out and if you drain the fluid into a clean bucket and if the fluid isn't that old you can reuse it. I'm sure there's some combination of tools and German voodoo that would allow you to get the axle out without removing the cooling loop but I didn't want to chance damaging the loop. Price a replacement cooling loop and you will see why.

Yep, there almost no room to get a good angle to the get it out with out damaging the lines. The fluid is new so I will re-use it. I'll try again this week.
thanks

Loosen all bolts, trans side first followed by trailing arm, (I stick a flat head screwdriver into a rotor slot in center of caliper to hold assembly), pull all bolts back to boot but do not remove, dislodge/push inner cv up and slightly towards front of car and inTo space above and in front of fuel filter, now dislodge outer cv from trailing arm and push axle up, then pull whole axle down and out. Install is reverse. Because EMPI axles are a bit longer, you may need to loosen/unbolt trans support to move trans sideways get enough room to dislodge/install inside cv. Mike

Anybody know if there is a comparable set of van axles for the early 944 with shorter half shafts?

Can these be found anymore? Other than for $80 on eBay, they seem gone. Was it renamed or something? I'm hoping to find a good but cheap option. Thanks.

Check rockauto

Thanks! This is what it took me to (picture), but it looks different than the 90-6085, with the axle extending beyond the cv joint. Also it says 26 splines, as opposed to 33 on the turbo 944. Any thoughts on fitment?

http://www.rockauto.com/getimage/get...93-0&width=450

Thank you.

Apparently they don't carry it anymore, the part number doesn't show any findings when searched. The picture you posted is for the AWD version. On Partsgeek it redirects to another page when the 90-6805 part number is used. The new part number is 7289-05150861, but it is out of stock.
Cardone has remanufactured half shafts part number 7289-07077219 or new at http://www.autopartswarehouse.com/sk...Passenger+Side

Looks like this site still has them listed (90-6805).

http://www.dansperformanceparts.com/...susp%20IRS.htm


Cheers

I tried to buy them from an Ebay listing a couple of months ago. The seller called me to offer the Cardone ones or a refund. I took the refund.

Dang, looks like the stock is emptied, except for a few dozen left on the internet, for sale at $80-100.

I guess we have no alternatives now? Are there any non-Empi assemblies for the RWD standard vanagon that are sufficient for a 951? Thanks.

Any thought on used, complete axles?

Damn.

Shoulda bought a couple extras while I was thinking about it last winter.

Taking my rear suspension apart over the next few days and I think my CVs could definitely use some attention. Has anyone found a source who still has some more of those VW axles assemblies that we are using?

I checked out the dans performance parts linked above and if he still has any they are 100 bucks a pop. Is that probably going to be the best source?