Rogue or vitesse maf?
 

I wanna try a different maf set up. I wanna go with the one which will require the least amount of tuning. I'm leaning toward the rogue with injectors... Seems like a really nice setup for the $$$. What do ya think. My goal is about 400 chp.....

There isn't much of a difference between the two besides the use of high-z vs. low-z injectors. The only other difference is that Vitesse has a piggy back available right now, Rogue will have one available in the future. You can't go wrong with either one.

why do you need a piggyback if the tune already handles true maf conversion?

no piggyback needed for the M-tune although Josh has plans for 1 in the future. It's really only for the guy that just can't resist to tweak the last 2% out of the system. I have it installed on my new 3L and the car runs perfect. Perfect a/f ratios idle to redline. May sound like I'm a fan, but really I spent many hours fiddling with a piggyback and it's a total PIA. To have a system that is really plug and play is a beautiful thing. Talk to Josh and he'll hook you up.

Rogue

Vitesse!:bowdown:

Thanks guys!! I'll probly go with the Rogue. I just don't have the patience to fiddle with the old school Quad-M maf I have. I even ordered a new set of chips with it and used the suggested maf file, and the car runs PIG rich @ 10:1 ,or fatter. I asked if I should try a different file or try to tweek the maf voltage some and never got a response from LR so.... Seems that everyone is really pleased with all the Rogue offerings. There is no dyno to tune where I live so the less back road tuning runs the better. Sorry officer but I'm tuning my car... Understand? lol

I would go for the rogue since the afr's are pretty damn good from the start

I personally have a Rouge C-Tune which is his MAF chipset made for a Ford Lightning 90mm Maf and personally find the tune and drive-ability excellent.

Rogue, hands down. Actual true technical knowledge behind the product - Josh writes what he sells. And when you factor in the cost of his full kit (MAF + injectors) it's a no-brainer.

I'm on the A-Tune now but think I'm gonna make the jump to the M-Tune once my tax refund gets here :)

Rogue for life :-) lol.

I have certainly been proud to be a part of it from the start. I know Josh really cares about doing the absolute best he can to make all the improvements possible.

Alright!! A lot of happy Rogue users out there! I was going to try to get my '88 S sold before dumping $ into the '89.., but I'm gonna have to give in and get the M-tune + injectors soon.... I want to see how much I can get out of the k26/8 in the '89 before (maybe) pulling the super 53 off the '88 or going with another turbo....

I just think its awesome that someone put in the time and energy to provide the plug n play maf. It will make my quad-m unit seem pre-historic I'm sure!!

Getting my M-tune soon!!!!

Yeah! lets keep rogue products going so he can keep making us go-faster parts!

Dunno, had good luck with Vitesse in the past - ran 23psi on 26/8 every day...
Have another Vitesse in the garage waiting on my slack self to get it installed...

I am a very happy Vitesse user, and have confidence in John as a career software professional. I have never tried Rogues MAF so cannot compare, and suspect there are very few people who have actually tried both. Vitesse was the first system to offer True-MAF code over a decade ago and Vitesse's system has been time-tested on streets and tracks all over the country, and all over the world, to provide a safe, powerful, track-worthy system that idles like a factory car, right at 840+/-, and remains well within the strictest emissions limits in the country here in California. Vitesse's MAF can be run without a piggyback, but I have to say the piggyback is nice to have. Although you don't "need" to adjust fuel, it helps to be able to fine tune to your particular application. It can also provide a number of other functions, including data logging, ignition timing control, boost control, etc., all of which can then be integrated with your tune. Vitesse's system has a true "track record" in every sense of those words.

Having said all that, no disrepect intended at all toward Rogue. I am honestly thankful to any and all folks who take the time and efffort to produce quality products for our long-forgotten cars, and I assume there is good reason Rogue has produced such a loyal following in such short order.

I really like my M-Tune. It was easy to install and just plain WORKS. I shopped Vitesse several years ago and the prices were crazy, so I bought Autothority and limped along. Now that I've got the M-Tune, life is easy, and Joshua is hard at work making improvements to this young solution.

The other very cool thing is support, both to the buyer and to future owners. For instance, my brother bought a 951 last weekend that already had M-Tune installed. I emailed Joshua to ask how support works for transfer owners, his response was something like "send me the new owner's contact info and that's who I'll communicate with and send chip updates to as they become available." That's tough to beat.

Guys
This is a thread that only starts pissing contests:rolleyes:
I can't comment on Rouge's products, as I never had any of his products in my car
However, I do have Vitesse's (John's) products in my car and I have to say, they are worth every penny!!:jumper:
If you were to look at the guys, who have been on this board for close to 10 years now, and in my belief, are the most knowledgeable ...
It's hands down Vitesse !! HANDS DOWN !
The list is long, and very deep with experience and knowledge. I don't think that's just by chance...
That's the advice I was lucky enough receive and follow, and I am very happy for it. :thumbsup:
But you could probably save a few dollars, and you may never know, what could have been ;)
Good luck, whatever you decide ....
Best regards
Ed
That is a question for those, that I mentioned in my post....
but from my experience, it provides flexibility.....
To tune exactly the way you want....
If it's not a valuable asset, why would other vendors be offering it down the road:confused:

Neither is my vote! I've been down that road and thankfully saw the light.

So your vote must be stand alone..... I just don't want to mess with that just yet..

Oh dam you cant beat that. I remember when i bought my Vitesse kit from a lister that lost the instructions, John V wanted me to pay a crazy amount for them. He did not really offer any help unless i paid him a crazy amount.

I really dislike these X vs Y threads. It gets very cliquey and vitriolic. I've dealt with both of these guys and they both offer great products and support. Either choice is a good one but don't turn it into a forum brawl. It's really unnecessary. We should be very thankful that vendors like this exist in our little corner of the performance car world. Without them, we'd be left behind in the dark ages. The 'Us vs You' chest beating does nothing but make people want to walk away from our cars. Believe it or not, these guys are not making millions off their products. Live and let live.

Its all about customer service. I have never owned or know anyone with a vitesse system. I am sure it is great. That is why there are choices out there. But customer service always wins in the end. I went with Rogue, as Joshua is truely great to speak too. You do see what the car is called now.

I believe you have pointed out the only difference between the 2 vendors. If you buy from them first hand i doubt there will be any issues. but second hand you would want to buy from josh

There are other differences of course. By all reports, Rogue is cheaper, which is important to a lot of people. Vitesse has a longer track record and I believe (someone correct me if I'm wrong) more features -- e.g., 6 maps on board, user set rpm and boost limits, boost control, data logging and monitoring, MAP fault notice, fuel and timing control based on multiple inputs, etc. I'm sure they are both great to work with -- and both obviously have happy customers -- so I think it really comes down to what you are looking for in a MAF system.

+100000000:thumbsup:

*long post*

I ran Vitesse V-flex system in my old car and I was extremely happy with it. Unfortunately for tuners and supporters of this platform the customer base that was buying these cars 10-12 years ago isn't the same one today as most of those have moved on to newer platforms. The average user of this platform today will probably be extremely cost prohibited and might even be a huge DYI guy to make up the difference. You can't fault any vendor for wanting to protect their own hard work. John's kits where the first of their kind for our cars and his track record has been proven. An owner that paid near the same amount to buy the car that john's kit costs is probably going to be hesitant to go that route. With that being said his products have a great track record and his support is fantastic. John would talk to me at 10pm on a Sunday for pete's sake.

I do not have any personal experience with Rogue's products because he was just getting started when I redid the combo on my car. His customers seem to be happy with their product and the support seems to be there. You really need to ask yourself what are your goals with your combo and what are you interested in spending. These questions might help narrow your search. As for me I didn't mind spending the money on a proven plug and play product and I could care less about people buying 2nd and 3rd hand kits and complaining about not getting support for free. If I buy a car off of an individual and it's not covered under warranty I can't expect to drive into the dealership and to receive service for free as if I bought the car from there. That sort of thinking is childish and not realistic.

getting instructions is not warranty. Zitronix, Link, Motec, Power Perfect, All of lindsey racing stuff, tec3, haltech, msd, aeromotive, holly, edlebrock and the list goes on. they have instructions online and free updates both software and firmware. I often look up the instructions before i buy things to make sure i can do it and if i need anything else that i might not have. I had a vendor on here send me the updated part (hardware) because it was the updated part. $250 for instructions is crazy.

Josh great job on help on the others

Not trying to start a vendor war here. Just wanted to know peoples experiences with both maf's. They both sound like excellent choices. I just want to go with the unit that will work the best without tweeking, etc.... I'm not concerned about the cost, just want to go with the one that will perform without having to adjust much if any...

I guess in order to buy the Vitesse you have to call them?

John has always sent me copies of instructions for free. Many of them are unique to my system, however, and would do more harm than good I'm sure if followed by others. That said, I don't know what he does for second-hand buyers, but suspect it probably depends on the situation and person asking.

Logging and monitoring, boost control, multiple input fuel and timing control - that's all extra. You have to buy the PB for that ($750)... and add an extra $100 for the boost control solenoid if you want boost control. And then there is the time required to set it all up (you get a "blank" PB to start with.) In other words: not apples-apples comparison here.

Apples to apples:

• User set rpm and boost limits, MAP failure detection, that comes with both products. Josh and John both have the capability to set whatever rpm and boost limit you want. Just email or call them before you place your order.
• Both come with a MAF sensor and all your necessary brackets and hoses.
• Both probably "work" just as well once installed on the car - I can't imagine there being a HUGE difference in performance between the two.
• Both have reputations for having good customer service
• Rogue is plug and play on '87+ cars. Vitesse requires you to cut your stock AFM connector off and splice in his adapter. Or you can pay an extra $150 to get an adapter that doesn't require cutting and soldering
• On 1986 cars, you DO need to update your DME to the 28-pin socket to run the Rogue setup. Josh charges $50 for that service (or you can chance it and do it yourself for free...) The Vitesse chip works with both 24- and 28-pin DMEs without needing to be modified. As the OP has an '89, this isn't an issue for him
• Both have the ability to store multiple maps. The Rogue I believe can hold 2 and 2 maps are included in his base price. Vitesse can definitely hold more - his website says 16, but I don't know how much he charges per additional map.

I see what your saying. i Hope he would do that. Second-hand buyers different stories. I have emails to prove.

I posted once here the prices individually for the stuff he charges and he made the mods of rennlist take it down. they even gave me a infraction for posting prices if i am not mistaken.

I had full Vitesse on my Car.. His turbo, Maf, SMT 6,as well as other things. I spend over $4000 with John. The product worked very well. I found a lister selling a vitesse wasted spark. He was the original owner. I purchased the product and called John for alittle tech support. Unless I paid he would not give any support.. After the amount of money I spent with him I thought that was rediculous.
Basically what I am saying is that the product is very good but as far as I am concerned the company stinks.. I own a Sound and performance shop . If you buy a product from any company that I represent you can call them or look on there web site and get specs and instructions for the product. That is the way it is suppose to be. Unless John changed his ways he will not give 2nd owners any help or support or waranntee. That is terrible.
Had an issue with the car so I had to have the motor rebuilt so I sold all the vitesse stuff to help me with the rebuild ( nothing to do with Vitesse product). I was going to rebuild it and just leave it with original eqiupment. I gave the car to my son and he has the bug to BOOOST. So he went with Rogue product. He did not get the MAF. He bought the A tune I think it is called, chips and the Map sensor.
We had nothing else that was Rogue. Lindsey 3 in exhaust , dual port wastegate and garret turbo.
He sent us chips and they were not perfect, so after talking a couple of times we got it right and the car runs great. The support you will get from Russell is much better than John. I have driven my sons car and the car is smooth and pulls like an animal. Rogue tuning makes a good product and matches it with top support, even if you are working with other copanies product , something I think Vitesse is lacking.
So to sum it up. I fell thay are both good product cost aside. Costomer service with working product rogue is the way to go.
John

sorry ment joshua not russell

Yes, to be clear, I was indeed referring to Vitesse's overall system, some parts of which like the piggyback and boost control, do cost more. Entirely agree that it is an apples to oranges comparison, which is why I tried to make clear that (in my view) the decision really comes down to what you are looking for in a MAF system.

You obviously completely miss the point. :thumbup:

Hardly. The OP was asking about the product and service and as long as he is buying first hand he will have a fantastic one. I've heard several people complain that John did not give them free tech help and use that as a basis to not do business with him. Ironic thing about that is if you are buying 3rd hand you aren't doing business with him in the first place. When your in his position and have been making products for so many years it gets old when someone calls you asking for install or trouble shooting help on a kit that's god knows how old and in god knows what shape. I've seen John help people out in need, people are greedy and want first rate service without paying first rate pricing. You've got to look at it from his point of view. If someone didn't buy this from you and knows extremely little about it you could spend hours trouble shooting even the simplest of problems, because of poor grounds or other issues with the the car. I don't know what line of work your in, but I'll bill out anything more than 30 minutes let alone hours spent through email, voice mail, or phone support. John spent tons of time on the phone with me and through email long before I was ever his customer.

John's products are first rate and so is his support. I've seen so many 951's that are rigged its terrible. At the end of the day your talking about a car that can be bought for five grand and with that price point comes certain expectations of cost per ownership. Most 951s on the market today are not in great fully sorted order and I'm being generous when I say that. The few cars that are, are money pits and the owners know it. They also aren't the ones who are usually complaining about cost versus service.:cheers:

Give Rogue 10 years of making kits and when enough of his products are out there where his phone will literally ring several times a day from people he has never done business with asking for his time and see how long he is willing to give into that bottomless pit. Eventually you've got to draw the line at some point.

^+1

I am one of the long time 951 owners here on Rennlist, and a long time Vitesse customer and enthusiast. I have not used Rogue and cannot make any sort of comment about Joshua or his products or offer a comparison between Rogue vs Vitesse. What I can say is that I have never felt the need to go elsewhere after initially going with Vitesse. His products AND his customer service have FAR exceeded my expectations.

One thing that seems to keep getting skipped over is that these cars have a fair number of variables that are out of the control of either John or Joshua, and it doesn't take very much with a tuned 951 to get it to the point that something catastrophic can happen to it. John has provided plenty of unpaid for support for his products over the years to second and third hand owners, and for some people to state otherwise is absolute BS. Try using the search function if you don't believe me. And there are plenty of other folks who state with absolute conviction about how Vitesse products work without having ever so much as riding in a car that has Vitesse products on it, let alone owned or installed them. It would be nice if the 'listers that fit that description would clearly identify their firsthand experiences (or lack therefof) before casting stones in his direction. Likewise with anyone talking about Rogue or any other vendor that still supports our cars. As it is, its that sort of behavior that has significantly cheapened the outstanding technical reputation that this forum once had. It has gotten to the point that there are only about five 'listers who still frequent this forum that I would actually trust to know what they are talking about.

To those of you who state that its great that we have vendors that are supporting the 951 platform, you are absolutely right. Its a small community, and its very tough to do any sort of comparison between two vendors without having it come down to a pi$$ing contest and unfortunately, I don't have a good answer for how to avoid that. Both John and Joshua deserve our respect, because I am postive its a labor of love for them. No one is getting rich selling products for 951's at this point, and if we aren't careful, we won't have anyone providing products for our cars.

Yes the real money has long since moved on from this platform. Those vendors that remain are here out of love, not because they're getting rich. It's not like we are talking about mustangs of which there is an endless supply of new potential customers. A 944 turbo is a rare car by comparison and can easily double or triple its used purchase price in modification and maintenance.

Trust me, it can go WAYYY beyond triple... I'll let you add up my pile of receipts if you don't believe me! Just don't tell me or my wife the total. lol

Vitesse :-D or standalone due to the features .. Shouldn't be buying things like sensors second hand in my opinion better to save to you can afford something new. Would you buy used fuelpump,sparkplugs,afm,o2 sensor, as well? To many people cant afford these cars and would be better off with out tuning them and focusing on the maintenance instead. My vitesse setup is tuned right were you want it (plug and play no need to touch the piggyback or even own the piggyback) and works very well with both E85\racefuel and gas. However if you want boost-control and the more advanced futures a piggyback becomes a must. Rouge seems great for the price however if you plan to joke around with cams and other bigger engine changes that setup need just like the vitesse a piggyback as well. Slightly modified cars require only the chip,maf,injectors,fpr though . I guess you cant go wrong with either however i would not trade away the over boost protection and the added safety the vitesse piggyback adds to my car.

theres a few rogue vs vitesse threads if you search. but they're both good. theres no 1st and 2nd. if there was, they'd be both at the top. :thumbup:

I dont agree with John support being great. As I wrote before I spent $4000 with John and I purchase a used wasted spark and he would not give me any help. That sounds right to you. Not to me. I own a very busy car audio performance shop and If I need a question answered about a product that I do not deal with all I have to do is call the company and they will answer any question about the product I want. Specs, hook up. You can usually get owners manual on line also.. Will John give a second hand customer a owners manual or install manual. On his site he sound have a section to download owners manuals or installation manuals and he would not get called as much..

I know you have help me with the hack job that was done with the 951 stereo and not charge me a dime. Actually told me to come back so we can 951 talk and go on runs

As much as I dislike posting in these type of threads, it's impossible to sit on the sideline when incorrect information is presented. I know you wanted technical data, however a few posters are not interested in technical facts and features, and will derail a thread in a heartbeat.
I feel this thread is going down hill really fast. If you have any technical questions, feel free to email me directly.

John, I'm not sure how you can come on a public forum and make such erroneous statements. For now, I'm going to assume that you simply forgotten what took place, as what you describe is not correct.
The facts are:
- Feb 07, you contacted me to inform me that you are purchasing a used WS. Making you the 3rd owner of the WS system, as you did not purchase it from the original owner. I even warned you that purchasing used electronics can be iffy, so be careful.
- Once you installed the WS system, you could not get it to work. And you requested assistance.
- I did provide you support and assistance for FREE (via email and phone calls). You even tanked me for it in your email to me dating 03/04/07. In the same email, you had a few questions regarding the installation document, which I replied to. So you did have instructions and I did assist you.
- After many failed attempts, you sent me the WS box to test. Which I spent a few hours testing, even installed on my personal car. It tested fine!
I did charge you a symbolic charge for the test procedure. You were charged less than a 1/4 of the time I spent.. Apparently you thought hours of my time should be free!
- On 4/12/07 I did send you a copy of the WS installation instructions FOR FREE.

So based on my calculation, I probably spent multiple hours assisting you and providing Free support for a product you purchased 3rd hand.

Installation is out of my control, so is the condition of used parts. Based on the data you gave me, I concluded that either the installation was incorrect, a signal was questionable or the wiring harness was questionable. As I recall you became agitated and a bit abrasive, you reminded me that you owned a Stereo shop and you do wiring all of the time. You decided you want to sell the WS system as you could not get it to work on your car.. I even sent you a buyer, someone who wanted a spare WS as he was running one already on his race car.

I did support you, I'm not sure why you expected additional FREE support, when you were entitled for none in the first place.
I do offer free support all of the time, not out of requirements, simply to help out. Many Rennlisters know this, and there are many posts (use the search).. However it appears that when someone gives freely, people expect more and more to a point they think it's a obligation. And when the free giving stops, the person who gave is all of the sudden a A.H. for not continuing to give freely.... I'm sure many been there...

Hope the above facts jogged your memory. If you have any doubts, with your permission, I can post the emails...

I always find these threads amusing, particularly when people are pinching pennies. Excluding the cost of the car, I've dumped in the range of 50K into my car so when I want an upgrade, I typically don't pay too much attention to price. Particularly when purchasing an item that can destroy a motor with one wrong keystroke.

I have not bought Rogue's kit but I have seen it and did some of the wiring. It seems to be well put together and the components are of good quality. That being said, I'm not a big fan of the dme soldering on the older DME's but that's a pretty minor pet peeve of mine (because I suck at soldering). From what I can tell the car with the kit ran well and made great power. I believe the engine builder was excellent though.:icon107: I would consider using the Rogue kit in the future on a "typical" build or one where pricing was a significant consideration (like on my father's 951).

I am one of the "original" Vitesse guys and over the last 10 years have bought or installed about a dozen of the Vitesse Maf's or chips and I have not had a single one run poorly out of the box. None of them REQUIRED a piggy back tune. The first one I installed is still running great. There's virtually no vendors out there right now with that type of history and product performance. I believe you will find it difficult to find a single Vitesse original product purchaser that will disagree with me.

One of the factors I've used is who has the direct hands-on experience with what I'm trying to accomplish? I've found that John's vast experience owning and racing these cars with a myriad of engine/turbo combinations makes me confident that he can reference a real world application (or failure) and apply that experience to what I need. That's what i pay for. I'm not sure Rogue has the same level of experience yet, but I could be wrong. For me I'll gladly spend a few extra bucks for that confidence but this isn't appropriate for everyone. I've never had an issue with john supporting second hand products but I wouldn't expect him to, particularly from people who've never bought anything from him. I'm a bit surprised by JBrown's experience though.

The second thing I get concerned with it "fly by night" tuners. Not saying that Rogue is or will be one, but for me it is a consideration. Those of you that know me can reference my often skeptical (being nice here) questioning of Danno, Russell, the pro-flow MAF, and a handful of other long-haul great guy "tuners" who had the greatest products but are no longer around. I've heard plenty of claims of new products that never come to fruition or experience significant failure when they do. Many of these products are not new but a piggyback to Vitesse’s with a lower price point. I've seen even more people jump on these product’s band-wagon not because they’ve used them or have intricate information about them but because they're anti-Vitesse products and pricing, even though they've never bought a single item. I can easily name a dozen of these guys. I find that Vitesse has run his own race for 10 years and hopefully Rogue continues to do the same.

For the OP of this thread, before deciding, figure out how complex or simple your combination is, consider the experience level of the vendor, weigh the pros and cons of each system, determine where you may want to make changes in the future and how flexible the system is, factor in the feedback you get from people who've actually used the products, and select the product within your price point. I don't think you can go wrong selecting either of the two.

One thing I've noticed since the e-mail list days, is this forum recycles experts every couple of years with information that is mostly regurgitated from others. Those of us that have been around for a while kind of laugh and roll our eyes when the new to me owner of a 951 takes the board by storm and schools the rest of us. I find that many of us geezers don’t post much these days and have somewhat resorted back to the e-mail days as that's where I have most of my technical discussions with others. It's so much easier being able to filter out the experts.

both systems are good. I bought a vitesse racing smt6 piggyback used and John was able to help me diagnose my connection problems. As far as the directions, they were on the disk that came with the smt-6. I have nothing against either company. Both have their perks and I wouldn't mind having either of them.

23psi on pump?

As far as charging for documentation and software, this applies to the PB. The software is not free, it costs us $. The time I spent figuring out the in/out to perfect the installation and to document took many hours if not days. Many purchased a PB off eBay or elsewhere on the Internet, a product that was not purchased from Vitesse in the first place, and wanted free instructions. So the logical thing was to put a $ amount on the instructions as we cannot police the source of the Piggyback.

Interesting enough, there are a certain listers who sold components as Vitesse components when they were not. Some people wanted support to components that were not originally Vitesse components. Some even distributed Copyright material without our permission.
If you think about it, a few bad apples ruin it for everyone else!

As far as a support policy, our MAIN priority are those who purchase directly from us. However, we spend countless hours supporting others as well. The support policy does get abused, and often requires alteration.

People who ever owned or ever ran a business surely have a clear idea. Others, just think that this is your "hobby", while it is someone's business. Running a business like a hobby always fails..

As sad as it is, some people here suck the passion of it. Bad enough to have to deal with people trying to pull scams. But having people that we are supposed to share the passion pull crap makes you think twice. In the long run, the 951 community will suffer. Any business catering to the 951 is based on passion much more than financial rewards.

OP - Sorry I did not post technical information on "your" thread, and more sorry you have to deal with this sort of BS.

wow...The OP was just asking for opinion on a maf system and now this thread has deteriorated to a mud throwing contest.

Some people don't understand the issues of running a small business. I run a small business and when a customer calls for help it comes down to this. Is the product still under warranty? If no then I have a general idea of the problem and if they want a diagnosis and estimate for repair/replacement then there is a fee. Time is money in a small business, you can't afford to give away your time for free it takes you away from other potential customers. John really has no responsibility for helping with issues beyond the original buyer. John has given his time for free well beyond what I would have in similar situations in my business.

I did not buy John's product,but he answered every email/call I made. John,you don't need to explain anything to anyone. Look, we have 2 great companies making great products,PERIOD! Buy one or buy the other, both ways I'm sure you will be happy. Stop with the silliness! Let's get back to helping one another, to supporting those who support us. Let's bring back the "Saratoga" or the V1 or another great product. Anything but a long thread about B.S.! I guess folks will compare the size of Maf tubes next.

I didn't say it was particularly smart... but yes.

I'm throwing in my $0.02 as a happy rogue customer. Had vitesse chips, tried out the A-tune, and was beside myself. Then I upgraded to the M-tune, and holy crap!

That is fantastic. Now that you mention it, maybe you can clear something up for me.

As I recall you evaluated both AFM chips. Were you not using the incorrect fuel pressure regulator (3.8bar) with the Vitesse AFM chip? While the Vitesse chip requires a 3.0bar FP. So when running 3.8bar (vs. 3.0bar FP) the car will run very rich, which hurts the performance, wouldn't it?
When you compared the dyno results, were you running the incorrect FPR also with the non-Vitesse chip?

When evaluating products to "help" others make a educated decision, and to be considered as a reliable impartial source, it makes sense to disclose all the facts including the running conditions under which the tests were performed. So if you can clear the above, it'll help greatly, TIA

Just my $0.02.

John at first you did not want to give me support , you gave me nothing but a hard time because I did not purchased it from you direct. As far as multiple hrs of help. That is a joke I might have had you on the phone a couple of times for maybe a total of 15 mins. Lets be real. At first you did not want to send me the instructions I had to basically talk my case that I just spend thousands of dollars with you. You are right I did get it from a 3rd party, I apologize for that. If you look at the post I am not the only person who has seen this. If a person spent thousands of dollars with me and then bought one of my products 3rd hand from one of my costomers I would have given them all the support they need without the need to bash them about buying 2nd or 3rd hand to buy it from me.. Thats all I have to say about this issue.

John,

At first you claim I gave you "NO SUPPORT" now your story is changing.
Well, you think only 15 minutes were spent, I know otherwise.

As far as bashing you for buying 2nd or 3rd generation product? When did that happen? Heck, I was never able to keep the WS in stock, so even if you wanted a new one, probably I couldn't sell you one.
I'm not sure how you came to the conclusion that I bashed you for purchasing a used WS.. I even sent you a buyer to buy your used WS, his name is Steve, maybe you recall.. If I wanted to sell a new unit (which I didn't have), why would I send someone to buy a used WS from you. Your comments make no sense, and your story keeps changing!

I may have mentioned this to you already, and of course you deal with the same thing in your business.
One of the reason at times I'm hesitant to "send out instructions", is because there were a few changes in the wiring. Of course if "I just send any document", and there is a error, and something gets fried I'm to blame. This is why it's best to get the instructions that came with the product.

The bottom line is , and I don't care if you admit it or not, you received support, you received the document (FOR FREE). when you were entitled to none. You failed to install and operate the product, and you come here bashing me.

I guess it's either your memory is foggy or you misrepresent facts.

I'm done here as well..

in before the lock and the ban. This thread should be locked

Keep in mind that Rogue has been around for quite a while - offering nothing but FREE advice, with his TunerPro software :)

http://roguetuning.com/free_944_tuning_tools

I get your point, and it's a legitimate concern for sure for a new vendor on the scene. But Josh and Rogue have been around a lot longer than just the release of his M- and A-Tune product.

OP - sucks this thread went downhill. Obviously some people are pretty passionate. Best of luck to you in whatever you choose. Just be careful to keep yourself in check, weigh all the factors before making a decision based on facts and not sales pitches or pressure. At the end of the day, there's enough knowledge here on RL to get you through whatever you need if either vendor happened to go jump off a cliff. :)

I hope no one, including Josh, gets the impression I've included him in the fly by night class. I can usually pick apart 99% of the BS guys and have not encountered that with Josh. He's been here a while, seems pretty technical, and more over I haven't classified as a dousche. I would consider his product for a particular application.

I sorta look at it this way... sometimes I buy Snap-On and sometimes I buy Craftsman. Both companies sell quality products and support them forever (for the most part anyway). My decision is based on the features I'm looking for and how often I plan to use and rely on th tool. The bottom line is that both options are good choices, it just depends on how money you want to spend on a particular aspect of the hobby. None of us are making a living driving these cars, so is there really a need to spend Snap-On money on something that makes the car more "fun"? That decision is up to you. I chose to save some money when possible on the fun stuff if I have multiple good options, some of that money saved goes towards pretty parts, and I dont spare any expense when buying safety components like brakes, suspension, helmets, harnesses, etc, at least as much as is appropriate for the minimal amount of track time I put in.

The bottom line to the OP is that you have two great choices, and I'm sure you will make the decision that works best for your immediate needs as well as our future plans for the car.

And just to continue with the apples-to-apples... it looks like Rogue is coming out with a piggyback device of his own, too:

http://roguetuning.com/rogue_tuner©_piggy-back

So it seems both vendors also offer PB devices now (or will soon?)

Hey and where do you guys leave the Lart's piggonback I have been offering the kit since 2003

Oh, I forgot about Lart. So to make my list complete, sometimes I buy Snap-On, sometimes Craftsman, and sometimes Harbor Freight!

:rockon:

What particular application might that be Jeremy?

I thought it was still in beta?

I'll take two. Gimme your paypal.

Everything is better with bacon! mmmm. Bacon-wrapped 951.

Something established. 2.5L 27/6, TO4E 50trim, GT series, mild cams, etc.
Timing curves are significantly different in a 3.0L and 2.8 (for max power).

On my 3.0L with a big cam, big turbo, worked head, about every bolt on you can think of, and 115 degree ambient temps I went to Vitesse based on his experience with 3.0L motors, race environment applications, and my past dealings with him. I couldn't find a better choice in my opinion.

Nice to see you post up jeremy! I know like myself you've bought from many vendors over the years and have a pretty well seasoned opinion. I hear ya on the money. I was about 70 grand or so over the course of 5 years of ownership. To be fair a lot of that was spent on mods and combo change ups.

Lol - I don't look at this thread for a day, and it blows-up!

I suppose it is kind of like asking what is better, Chevy or Ford...

It does not matter what objective points are brought up, there will be two sides disagreeing for eternity. And those that have ran both systems are likely not going to be vocal about it, not that I blame them, as they will get the most aggressive back-lashing.

Those that mentioned these cars being a labor of love - that is exactly the fact for myself! I've owned my 951 for ~7years, and even picked up a 944NA last year. Of all the cars I've owned, this has been my favorite, and I have no plans of moving away from them (though I might be looking for a 968 coupe this year). Since owning this thing, I've tried to make it better and give back to the community.

Ha, first time I've actually considered quoting someone for my signature :cheers:

In the end, I do believe competition to be a good thing, even in a marketplace as small as this one. Because of competition, people have options to argue about, prices to scrutinize, and continued innovation.

Couldn't agree more. Congratulations on your success. You obviously stand by your product which is important.:thumbup:

Well put unlike some ppl on here. BTW you know Ford is better no argument about that.

No way. Chevy is better.

;)

"Where there's smoke, there's usually some semblance of fire", I always say...

Ford US or Ford AUS?

Clearly Ford Aus is better ;)

FORD- First On Race Day
Chevrolet-Cracked heads everlasting valve leakage engine trouble

Well i all can say 65 1/2-70 mustangs win for USA and rest goes to Aus ie Capri

Funny. I've always heard a very similar breakdown of the FORD acronym, but it started with a different "F" word....

;)

Mopar.

It's probably safe to say that any AUS variant of either American maker is going to be better.

You guys get the Holden Monaro, the Ford Falcon, etc. We get stuck with the Chevy Malibu and Ford Taurus.

Fail.

F****d-Over Rebuilt Dodge
Found On Road Dead

Is this thread dead yet?

HAHA

Here are few things i gotta say about Mopar
MOPAR-Mostly Old Parts And Rust
My Old Pig Ain`t Running

That being said I would rather drive a Mopar than Chevy

In the end it's

This
http://f-150svtraptor.com/wp-content...VT-On-Road.jpg

VS


This http://pictures.topspeed.com/IMG/cro...e-2_460x0w.jpg

:thumbup:

Backwards: Driver Returns On Foot

Fix Or Repair Daily

DAM i want f the raptor

Mopar or No car. Thats all I'm going to say.

Most Original Parts Are Replaced.

Well I did are you related to Vic Sourman, the inventor of nuclear fission?

I know, right? :D

So to keep this going, premarital sex or not

This reminds me of the "Please delete" thread on the 928 board :)

looks like im going m-tune for my 951 track car. Quicker and cheaper than doing a v8 conversion, and allows me to race pca eventually.

if i could put a 302 or a 351w in a 951 i would

I want to see a Termi motor in a 951. Even better, a new 5.0

terminator in a 928ftw. too bad that motor is just so w i d e !

FWIW I had been looking into the Rogue kit for a while and just so happened a customer wanted to upgrade his old MAF kit so I went ahead and got the M-Tune. Josh has been great to deal with and I have not had any trouble when trying to reach him.
We got the kit in the mail yesterday and got it installed today, haven't had a chance to drive the car yet but it started right up and was pretty pleased with the overall ease of installation.

I've got to put and LSD gearbox in the car tomorrow morning but once that is done will rip it around a little and see how it does!

So far I would grade Rogue Tuning/Josh 2 thumbs up!
$.02
J

we have your authority dyno results care to get a dyno with josh's product?

I hate when young punks bash/love domestic car manufacturers base on my daddy once owned a hot rod (mustand, camaro, charger, AMC)...... instead of using stats.

92% of all GM products produces in the last 20 years are still on the road today.

I guess the other 8% actually made it home!


Josh & John, continued success to the both of you in the future (unless you take Danno on as a partner).

I'm young, but I am a Mopar fan because I have first hand experience with all of them. Parents had 3 taruses and all of them the transmission crapped out. Had a Oldsmobile Eighty Eight with the 3.8 Type 1 motor it had all kinds of issues, my old neon had not one issue until it was up around 180,000 miles and the trans crapped out. Just wanted to give a little to this thread.

MOPAR OR NO CAR.

I was really big into the Shelby-Dodge scene for a long time (hence my screenname.)

Though as I write this, I'm not sure if that allows me to speak from experience when I say Mopar is junk, or just look like an idiot....

I had a few fun Mopars a long time ago, including a '68 Dodge Super Bee and a '71 Challenger RT Convertible. I also had a handful of classic Mustangs, including a '67 Fastback with a 390 and a 70 Mach I. I am not saying that I wouldn't mind having them again (assuming I didn't have to pay recent market value, anyway) but they all rode and handled like a buckboard wagon compared to a Porsche. Between the Fords vs Mopars, there was no comparison, the Fords were better in just about every single way, imo.

Wait a minute. You are implying that people make car choices based on something resembling logic.

If that were the case the 944/951 would be the most desired and most expensive car in the world(since it is logically the very best car in the world:evilgrin:) and the entire world would make fun of 911s and anything made by honda(logically the most boring cars in the world).




For the OP, I've ridden in cars with both MAF systems. You will be happy with either one.

My old car was pretty stock with the exception of a Vitesse AFM chip. I then upgraded to a M-tune MAF, Vitesse Stage 2 Turbo, SFR stage 1 headers, and a bunch of Lindsey Racing parts and they all work well together.
There are a lot of vendors who make great products for our cars.

From personal experience, both John and Josh provide great customer service. I had Josh on the phone at 10pm on a Sunday night troubleshooting an issue. John answered my questions even though I bought the AFM chip and the turbo second hand.

I bleed Chrysler Corporation Blue...I love my 951 but the Superbirds are family.

just ordered mtune to run e-85 in my race car. K278 turbo, no cats, no balanc shafts, straight 3"pipes duel port wastgate, lightend flywheel, forged bottom end with crank sraper. any bets as to what whp I wil see? at different boot levels?

how much boost are you planning to run?

ah, see its a two dimentional game. I dont know exactly, caue I dont know what each boost level feels likely. So I'd say somewere between "oh **** this is fast" and "captain I dont think she can take much more of this"

Well this is being installed on a customers 87 951 street car and not sure we ever dynoed it. At this point I am impressed with the system so far and as soon as I have the extra cash will likely get one as I would like to see what kind of HP improvement will be had. Plus I was at 297 rwhp before so I figure the MAF kit would be more then enough to push me over the 300 mark :)

325-350whp is my guess depending on the lvl of boost :D