Who here wants a simple water injection sytem for a good price??
03-12-2003, 07:47 PM
#64
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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Originally posted by toddk911:
<strong>What is the difference in systems that spray before the turbo and after the turbo?
I believe the Snow kit injects right before the throttle body which seems the easiest to install, but curious why some systems spray before the turbo, other than a higher pressure pump is needed to spray after turbo.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Todd, I've been reading up on this subject since this thread was started, and there seems to be a consensus that injecting before the turbo will cause significant wear on the compressor blades (i.e. damage). No first hand experience on my part.
Ron
<strong>What is the difference in systems that spray before the turbo and after the turbo?
I believe the Snow kit injects right before the throttle body which seems the easiest to install, but curious why some systems spray before the turbo, other than a higher pressure pump is needed to spray after turbo.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Todd, I've been reading up on this subject since this thread was started, and there seems to be a consensus that injecting before the turbo will cause significant wear on the compressor blades (i.e. damage). No first hand experience on my part.
Ron
03-12-2003, 08:29 PM
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I wonder......
with the addition of water injection and the resultant reduction in intake charge temp, will the combustion gas temp be reduced and thus add turbo lag?
with the addition of water injection and the resultant reduction in intake charge temp, will the combustion gas temp be reduced and thus add turbo lag?
03-12-2003, 08:37 PM
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Ski
Just looked at the Snow kit and it includes a water tank. Would Snow offer a cost savings to delete the water tank from his kit? Our 951's have a very large windsheild washer tank that would work very well.
Just looked at the Snow kit and it includes a water tank. Would Snow offer a cost savings to delete the water tank from his kit? Our 951's have a very large windsheild washer tank that would work very well.
03-12-2003, 09:20 PM
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Don't know,,all you have to do is ask though. I was going to use the kit tank and try to locate in a somewhat cool area.
One thing,,I know that it is better to mount closer to the throttle body BUT my Kokeln intercooler pipes are thin. I wonder about drilling, at an angle to get the jet nozzle centered up at the end of the intercooler outlet...any thoughts from anyone?
One thing,,I know that it is better to mount closer to the throttle body BUT my Kokeln intercooler pipes are thin. I wonder about drilling, at an angle to get the jet nozzle centered up at the end of the intercooler outlet...any thoughts from anyone?
03-12-2003, 10:35 PM
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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Originally posted by Bill:
<strong>I wonder......
with the addition of water injection and the resultant reduction in intake charge temp, will the combustion gas temp be reduced and thus add turbo lag?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Bill,
Good question, I can't imagine that it would be enough to notice. I'm sure the exhaust temps are cooler, but no worse than running on a cool damp night. (and we all know what that's like!!) <img border="0" alt="[jumper]" title="" src="graemlins/jumper.gif" />
--------------------------------
Hey J. Cooper. (look guys another cupmeister!)
(inside joke Mr. Cooper)
It cools the fuel charge before it goes into the cylinders. It allows the computer to keep the timing advanced instead of retarding it to prevent detonation. The biggest advantage is not having to buy $5 per gallon 100 octane fuel when the 91 octane isn't cutting it.
Oh, I forgot, it allows you to run somewhat higher boost. ( I won't be the one to tell someone to turn up their boost)
<strong>I wonder......
with the addition of water injection and the resultant reduction in intake charge temp, will the combustion gas temp be reduced and thus add turbo lag?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Bill,
Good question, I can't imagine that it would be enough to notice. I'm sure the exhaust temps are cooler, but no worse than running on a cool damp night. (and we all know what that's like!!) <img border="0" alt="[jumper]" title="" src="graemlins/jumper.gif" />
--------------------------------
Hey J. Cooper. (look guys another cupmeister!)
(inside joke Mr. Cooper)
It cools the fuel charge before it goes into the cylinders. It allows the computer to keep the timing advanced instead of retarding it to prevent detonation. The biggest advantage is not having to buy $5 per gallon 100 octane fuel when the 91 octane isn't cutting it.
Oh, I forgot, it allows you to run somewhat higher boost. ( I won't be the one to tell someone to turn up their boost)
03-13-2003, 01:43 AM
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Yeah its another Cooper. Only I am only 17 so you don't have to call me Mr. Cooper. But anyway, How much more power could this actually get you, and where would you install this.
Thanks
Thanks
03-13-2003, 04:05 AM
#72
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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Originally posted by Bill:
<strong>I wonder......
with the addition of water injection and the resultant reduction in intake charge temp, will the combustion gas temp be reduced and thus add turbo lag?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Most kit's don't start spraying until the intake reaches a certain boost pressure. Since turbo lag occurs when there is negative/zero/very little manifold pressure the water injection would have no effect on it.
<strong>I wonder......
with the addition of water injection and the resultant reduction in intake charge temp, will the combustion gas temp be reduced and thus add turbo lag?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Most kit's don't start spraying until the intake reaches a certain boost pressure. Since turbo lag occurs when there is negative/zero/very little manifold pressure the water injection would have no effect on it.
03-13-2003, 04:08 AM
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We'll Mr. Cooper here's my take. But I suggest you do your own research.
On my stock 951, the only gain I would have is during hot days or when I get some bad gas. Even then it would be minimal. Maybe 10hp. This is with no other changes.
Now if we look at a modified car, let's take my track car for example. I have a stock k26 turbo and MAF, ARC II fuel controller, Electronic Boost controller, Open exhaust, running about 16-18psi. This whole setup is just asking for a superheated charge of air. I would expect at times when the charge is heat soaked and power is down due to 91 octane and ignition fully retarded... I might gain as much as 40+ hp by injecting water/alcohol. It cools the charge, allows the ignition to advance and makes the engine think it's running 95+ octane on a cool damp evening.
On normal average days 20+ hp would not be out of the question.
These are just my thoughts from my research. I'm not affiliated with Snowpeformance or any other vendor.
Here is a link to a vendor that has some thoughts that I agree with. If all is well and the intake charge temp is good, and the timing is not getting retarded, then the power doesn't increase. But, when are things that perfect?
<a href="http://www.kennedysdynotune.com/waterinjected.htm#Results" target="_blank">http://www.kennedysdynotune.com/waterinjected.htm#Results</a> with Water
I welcome corrections and other information from the better informed.
On my stock 951, the only gain I would have is during hot days or when I get some bad gas. Even then it would be minimal. Maybe 10hp. This is with no other changes.
Now if we look at a modified car, let's take my track car for example. I have a stock k26 turbo and MAF, ARC II fuel controller, Electronic Boost controller, Open exhaust, running about 16-18psi. This whole setup is just asking for a superheated charge of air. I would expect at times when the charge is heat soaked and power is down due to 91 octane and ignition fully retarded... I might gain as much as 40+ hp by injecting water/alcohol. It cools the charge, allows the ignition to advance and makes the engine think it's running 95+ octane on a cool damp evening.
On normal average days 20+ hp would not be out of the question.
These are just my thoughts from my research. I'm not affiliated with Snowpeformance or any other vendor.
Here is a link to a vendor that has some thoughts that I agree with. If all is well and the intake charge temp is good, and the timing is not getting retarded, then the power doesn't increase. But, when are things that perfect?
<a href="http://www.kennedysdynotune.com/waterinjected.htm#Results" target="_blank">http://www.kennedysdynotune.com/waterinjected.htm#Results</a> with Water
I welcome corrections and other information from the better informed.
03-13-2003, 10:08 AM
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ToddK94 - RJP951 is correct in that by injecting before the turbo on an intercooled car, some condensation will occur in the intercooler. Also, there are some reports of damaged impellers with this set-up.
Boost Guy951- Please call me at 719-271-5644 and leave a message if I am out or making calls.
I agree with John E and Dan D on the analysis of water inj. vs turbo lag. Boost pressure has to be up to inject and exhaust temps aren't reduced that much (100-200°f) when the recommended qty is injected ( 15-25% of total fuel consumption at peak FWHP).
Dan D - by using a mix of methanol, you will get more power. Although not a huge amount, methanol will donate O2 when combusted. We are currently doing tests on a nitromethane additive for the boost cooler that will give 30-50 more HP without going "lean".
Matt
Boost Guy951- Please call me at 719-271-5644 and leave a message if I am out or making calls.
I agree with John E and Dan D on the analysis of water inj. vs turbo lag. Boost pressure has to be up to inject and exhaust temps aren't reduced that much (100-200°f) when the recommended qty is injected ( 15-25% of total fuel consumption at peak FWHP).
Dan D - by using a mix of methanol, you will get more power. Although not a huge amount, methanol will donate O2 when combusted. We are currently doing tests on a nitromethane additive for the boost cooler that will give 30-50 more HP without going "lean".
Matt
03-14-2003, 12:04 PM
#75
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Nitro methane??? Holy crap!! 
Where would oe aquie nitro methene??
I have head methanal is very toxic ad corosive. Is this true? How muchdifferece from running alch. mix vs. methonal??
On the snow system, how does the boost control the spray?? The spray increases as the boost gets higher??
Where would oe aquie nitro methene??I have head methanal is very toxic ad corosive. Is this true? How muchdifferece from running alch. mix vs. methonal??
On the snow system, how does the boost control the spray?? The spray increases as the boost gets higher??