Could the 951 be the new Supra?
09-20-2011, 12:58 PM
#16
I remember when the Sound Performance Supra first went 9s, back in 97 or 98?
Full original interior - seats, dash, carpeting, etc. Full stereo system (SP started off as a stereo shop!) Functioning climate control. They drove it 50+ miles to the track, A/C on the whole way in traffic. Bolted up slicks, ran their 9, put the street tires back on, and drove it back to the shop.
Most street racers from the midwest are probably familiar with Marco and his famous "white Supra." 9-second car (or faster, nobody really knows for sure) on drag radials. He didn't even bother with tire changes. From the outside, it looked like a nothing-special MkIV. Stock looking everything aside from a big exhaust. Stock rims even. Idled smooth. Was quiet. Full interior. Roll up, let some air out of the DR's, and rip off a 9. Do a youtube search for "marco supra" you'll find lots of hits.
EDIT: Marco's car... running an 8.45 on big+littles:
Dyno run:
Full original interior - seats, dash, carpeting, etc. Full stereo system (SP started off as a stereo shop!) Functioning climate control. They drove it 50+ miles to the track, A/C on the whole way in traffic. Bolted up slicks, ran their 9, put the street tires back on, and drove it back to the shop.
Most street racers from the midwest are probably familiar with Marco and his famous "white Supra." 9-second car (or faster, nobody really knows for sure) on drag radials. He didn't even bother with tire changes. From the outside, it looked like a nothing-special MkIV. Stock looking everything aside from a big exhaust. Stock rims even. Idled smooth. Was quiet. Full interior. Roll up, let some air out of the DR's, and rip off a 9. Do a youtube search for "marco supra" you'll find lots of hits.
EDIT: Marco's car... running an 8.45 on big+littles:
Dyno run:
09-20-2011, 01:30 PM
#17
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It's true that the 951 has a lot of potential, but is it ever going to replace the MK3 Supra, or the Skyline as the "holy grail of little boy's dreams"... no. I mean, sure, there are and will be kids that drool over the 951 (I know, I was one of them), but there will never be the widespread obsession with the 951 like there is with the Supra.
First of all, I don't know off-hand, but I would imagine that there were many more MK3 Supras made than 951's. I know I see them fairly often and I almost never see 951's.
Secondly, like most Japanese cars, it's a lot cheaper to repair/mod than the 951
Third, there's a lot of kids (at least in the states) brought up believing that the only difference between a porcupine and a Porsche is that the porcupine has the ****** on the outside. That stigma, unfortunately, will always be with the 951.
Fourth, and possibly most importantly, the Supra is flashy in a way that the 951 is not. First off, there's that wild, spaceship interior, and then there's that absurd spoiler, and, if it's just not quite wild enough for you, there's an endless supply of ridiculous body kits. The 951 is much more subtle and classy... Here's a good analogy: the 951 is James Bond; a charming, classy, tuxedo wearing, killing machine. The Supra is Hulk Hogan; a shirt-ripping, shouting, rampaging ape swinging from the rafters.
When I was a kid, I wanted to be James Bond when I grew up... but most of the kids I knew wanted to be Hulk Hogan.
It's a different type that loves the 951, and I think our cars and our community are better for it.
First of all, I don't know off-hand, but I would imagine that there were many more MK3 Supras made than 951's. I know I see them fairly often and I almost never see 951's.
Secondly, like most Japanese cars, it's a lot cheaper to repair/mod than the 951
Third, there's a lot of kids (at least in the states) brought up believing that the only difference between a porcupine and a Porsche is that the porcupine has the ****** on the outside. That stigma, unfortunately, will always be with the 951.
Fourth, and possibly most importantly, the Supra is flashy in a way that the 951 is not. First off, there's that wild, spaceship interior, and then there's that absurd spoiler, and, if it's just not quite wild enough for you, there's an endless supply of ridiculous body kits. The 951 is much more subtle and classy... Here's a good analogy: the 951 is James Bond; a charming, classy, tuxedo wearing, killing machine. The Supra is Hulk Hogan; a shirt-ripping, shouting, rampaging ape swinging from the rafters.
When I was a kid, I wanted to be James Bond when I grew up... but most of the kids I knew wanted to be Hulk Hogan.
It's a different type that loves the 951, and I think our cars and our community are better for it.
09-20-2011, 01:32 PM
#18
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Are there really any 951 owners focusing on 1/4 mile times? This sounds like my dodge truck....it can turn a good 1/4 mile, for a 1 ton dually, but it was designed to pull my 14,000lb fifth wheel.
A nail can be driven with a forehead, but a hammer works better.
A nail can be driven with a forehead, but a hammer works better.
09-20-2011, 01:34 PM
#19
09-20-2011, 02:55 PM
#20
I definitely do NOT think so.
400rwhp in a MkIV Supra is the STARTING point. New downpipe, some extra boost, and you're there. 450hp isn't too far off, and 600hp is a turbo change away. Supras became so popular because of the ease in which they made BIG power, and the fact that they were not well known in the street racing community (so they were a sort of a secret weapon money maker for a while.) Plus it made 400+hp accessible to your average idiot. Pick up a ratted out '93-'94 for $18k (back in the early 2000s), throw a $600 downpipe on it, a HKS FCD box, and add a boost controller, and you had a solid mid-low 12-second ride (if you could drive) that could show it's taillights to most (even bolt-on equipped) Mustangs, Corvettes, and F-bodies on the street.
Now the bar is raised. New performance cars (Mustang/Camaro/Corvette, the BMW turbo-6's, etc), off the showroom floor, are 400+hp and run 12s out of the box (with some extreme examples, like the GT-R, running 11s box-stock!) Throw a few basic mods (chip/tune, exhaust/headers, etc.) and they're in the 11s (or faster if you started off with a GT-R for example.) In order to be the "next underrated supercar" it would really need to be what the Supra was in the 90s/early 00's - capable of hanging with, or going faster than, your average new, respected "fast" sports/muscle car. So that means, for today, 11-second capable with relative ease and for little mod money. That's definitely NOT going to happen with the 951.
Your average 951 - exhaust, chip, boost controller running reasonable boost (~15-16psi), with a decent driver, and a good launch - my bet: mid 13s. That's not even fast enough to consistently outrun a box-stock Camaro SS in the 1/4.
400rwhp in a MkIV Supra is the STARTING point. New downpipe, some extra boost, and you're there. 450hp isn't too far off, and 600hp is a turbo change away. Supras became so popular because of the ease in which they made BIG power, and the fact that they were not well known in the street racing community (so they were a sort of a secret weapon money maker for a while.) Plus it made 400+hp accessible to your average idiot. Pick up a ratted out '93-'94 for $18k (back in the early 2000s), throw a $600 downpipe on it, a HKS FCD box, and add a boost controller, and you had a solid mid-low 12-second ride (if you could drive) that could show it's taillights to most (even bolt-on equipped) Mustangs, Corvettes, and F-bodies on the street.
Now the bar is raised. New performance cars (Mustang/Camaro/Corvette, the BMW turbo-6's, etc), off the showroom floor, are 400+hp and run 12s out of the box (with some extreme examples, like the GT-R, running 11s box-stock!) Throw a few basic mods (chip/tune, exhaust/headers, etc.) and they're in the 11s (or faster if you started off with a GT-R for example.) In order to be the "next underrated supercar" it would really need to be what the Supra was in the 90s/early 00's - capable of hanging with, or going faster than, your average new, respected "fast" sports/muscle car. So that means, for today, 11-second capable with relative ease and for little mod money. That's definitely NOT going to happen with the 951.
Your average 951 - exhaust, chip, boost controller running reasonable boost (~15-16psi), with a decent driver, and a good launch - my bet: mid 13s. That's not even fast enough to consistently outrun a box-stock Camaro SS in the 1/4.
09-20-2011, 02:59 PM
#21
I never really compared my car to others. I always made my car into what I wanted. Then again, I'm not out to race/beat anything on the street. Each car has it's own purposes and intended market.
09-20-2011, 04:29 PM
#22
Race Car
Thread Starter
Lots of very interesting responses (especially your Luis 
)
I suppose I should not be really comparing these things to another car and the supra may be completely out of line. I guess wothout knowing the specifics of what I meant and taken on the whole that would seem far fetched. Here are some specific points:
There are not many supras around here.
When I see them run at the track even the nicer setups are only running mid to low elevens.
I am not talking about the crazy BA built cars (important thought).
I guess I'm just happy with these things. When sold my car I wanted a driver car that was fast and fun. Obviously it is no where near supra speed but to me I can see it going quite a bit further. Here is why...
I have already ran a 1.61 sixty foot and I strongly believe I will achieve a 1.5 with tires and clutch.
I have only been running lower boost due to clutch issues and still have managed 118 mph at this elevation.
My car is really just a few custom bolt ons and IMO is running very strong. With a much better head I can see mid 120's. With a clutch that holds who knows.
The 968 transaxle is quite a bit stronger than our turbo units so it may hold up to some significant power.
I guess in my mind I'm still back in the time where having an 11 second street driven car was rare. Actually from what I've seen up at the track it still is.
I do think I was daydreaming a bit when I thought of this thread but when you consider that I can personally run with some fairly healthy cars with my amount of knowledge and $$ that anyone could do it.
I guess I just love these cars because they are meeting my needs very easily after getting them sorted out.
)I suppose I should not be really comparing these things to another car and the supra may be completely out of line. I guess wothout knowing the specifics of what I meant and taken on the whole that would seem far fetched. Here are some specific points:
There are not many supras around here.
When I see them run at the track even the nicer setups are only running mid to low elevens.
I am not talking about the crazy BA built cars (important thought).
I guess I'm just happy with these things. When sold my car I wanted a driver car that was fast and fun. Obviously it is no where near supra speed but to me I can see it going quite a bit further. Here is why...
I have already ran a 1.61 sixty foot and I strongly believe I will achieve a 1.5 with tires and clutch.
I have only been running lower boost due to clutch issues and still have managed 118 mph at this elevation.
My car is really just a few custom bolt ons and IMO is running very strong. With a much better head I can see mid 120's. With a clutch that holds who knows.
The 968 transaxle is quite a bit stronger than our turbo units so it may hold up to some significant power.
I guess in my mind I'm still back in the time where having an 11 second street driven car was rare. Actually from what I've seen up at the track it still is.
I do think I was daydreaming a bit when I thought of this thread but when you consider that I can personally run with some fairly healthy cars with my amount of knowledge and $$ that anyone could do it.
I guess I just love these cars because they are meeting my needs very easily after getting them sorted out.
09-20-2011, 04:37 PM
#23
All the talks about HP and straight line performance... I agree we care a lot about engine mods on this board but this is not what a 951 is mostly about.
I have been in a Supra MkIV only once, but I can say this is a BIG FAT car, and I don't see myself wrestling one on the twisty roads around here. The 951 is enough of a job already with the power it makes, I dread to think how much more of a handful a 800+hp Supra would be!
I have been in a Supra MkIV only once, but I can say this is a BIG FAT car, and I don't see myself wrestling one on the twisty roads around here. The 951 is enough of a job already with the power it makes, I dread to think how much more of a handful a 800+hp Supra would be!
09-20-2011, 04:42 PM
#24
Rennlist Member
Lots of very interesting responses (especially your Luis )
I suppose I should not be really comparing these things to another car and the supra may be completely out of line. I guess wothout knowing the specifics of what I meant and taken on the whole that would seem far fetched. Here are some specific points:
There are not many supras around here.
When I see them run at the track even the nicer setups are only running mid to low elevens.
I am not talking about the crazy BA built cars (important thought).
I guess I'm just happy with these things. When sold my car I wanted a driver car that was fast and fun. Obviously it is no where near supra speed but to me I can see it going quite a bit further. Here is why...
I have already ran a 1.61 sixty foot and I strongly believe I will achieve a 1.5 with tires and clutch.
I have only been running lower boost due to clutch issues and still have managed 118 mph at this elevation.
My car is really just a few custom bolt ons and IMO is running very strong. With a much better head I can see mid 120's. With a clutch that holds who knows.
The 968 transaxle is quite a bit stronger than our turbo units so it may hold up to some significant power.
I guess in my mind I'm still back in the time where having an 11 second street driven car was rare. Actually from what I've seen up at the track it still is.
I do think I was daydreaming a bit when I thought of this thread but when you consider that I can personally run with some fairly healthy cars with my amount of knowledge and $$ that anyone could do it.
I guess I just love these cars because they are meeting my needs very easily after getting them sorted out.
)I suppose I should not be really comparing these things to another car and the supra may be completely out of line. I guess wothout knowing the specifics of what I meant and taken on the whole that would seem far fetched. Here are some specific points:
There are not many supras around here.
When I see them run at the track even the nicer setups are only running mid to low elevens.
I am not talking about the crazy BA built cars (important thought).
I guess I'm just happy with these things. When sold my car I wanted a driver car that was fast and fun. Obviously it is no where near supra speed but to me I can see it going quite a bit further. Here is why...
I have already ran a 1.61 sixty foot and I strongly believe I will achieve a 1.5 with tires and clutch.
I have only been running lower boost due to clutch issues and still have managed 118 mph at this elevation.
My car is really just a few custom bolt ons and IMO is running very strong. With a much better head I can see mid 120's. With a clutch that holds who knows.
The 968 transaxle is quite a bit stronger than our turbo units so it may hold up to some significant power.
I guess in my mind I'm still back in the time where having an 11 second street driven car was rare. Actually from what I've seen up at the track it still is.
I do think I was daydreaming a bit when I thought of this thread but when you consider that I can personally run with some fairly healthy cars with my amount of knowledge and $$ that anyone could do it.
I guess I just love these cars because they are meeting my needs very easily after getting them sorted out.
Supra's are nice, but they just don't have the x-factor the way that the 951 does... and that x-factor is never going to be outdone by the HP potential of the 2jz. At least not in my book.
09-20-2011, 04:56 PM
#25
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yes, to go broke and get divorced sooner than anyone in the general population.
on the verge? people have been tuning the 944T for 25 years.
Looking at how many people are doing 3.0 liter engines and how many will be following suit it got me to wondering. The other thing that made me think of this is that now there are options available to most anyone to have up to 600 hp tuning.... Your thoughts about how far up the ladder these cars are capable of being?
are you sure about 600 hp? crap.. get much past 400 hp and you'll be back here in no time; crying about your 2nd blown headgasket in the same number of months without even hardly running the car (if your 25 year old engine doesn't blow up first).
the Supra's are 6 cylinder, inline engines built with higher torque (like 375 ft/lbs in stock trim), and even with the 6 battery-cell sized cylinders, you've still only got a marginally better 1/4 mile car (before big $$$ tuning programs begin).... your 944T car, was never built for top 1/4 mile times as the powerbands are narrow.... this isn't to say that our P-cars are not great cars; they are. and tuning to 325~375 hp, will surely get your heart pumping on those late night drives on your nearby windy roads and help you enter into the jr. supercar area.... and with a solid maint. program and a little luck, driving a great car shouldn't kill you on $$$....
perhaps a 968 transmission will help you stay in the powerband slightly better than a 944 trans.... but any high hp/performance/competition programme with either a Supra, 944, 968 or any other low-displacement engine is going to get you into serious financial hurt in no time. for what you're talking about, without spending huge capital (staying within about $25~30K), you need to move up to a heavy-duty, LSx engine.
if you're able to spend more than $12 K/year doing mods in 3 consective years without going to the poorhouse, i'm damn impressed. but for anything even close to what you're talking, get ready to outlay that kind of cash every year for 5~6 years... and you'll still find yourself with a substantial 'to-do' list year after year.
.
Last edited by odurandina; 09-20-2011 at 06:33 PM.
09-20-2011, 05:16 PM
#26
Race Car
Thread Starter
Lol how did I know that would be your response 
I have lol at your 400 hp comment because I've been running that for some time now.
Yes 944t's have been tuned for quite some time. From what I've seen though, they seem to have been kept In the dark ages until this last decade unless you went standalone.
Yes I may been playing out a silly fantasy in my head regarding what I think of these cars but I certainly don't think that warrants swapping to an lsx.
I love the lsx engines but I also walk them regularly.
I have lol at your 400 hp comment because I've been running that for some time now.
Yes 944t's have been tuned for quite some time. From what I've seen though, they seem to have been kept In the dark ages until this last decade unless you went standalone.
Yes I may been playing out a silly fantasy in my head regarding what I think of these cars but I certainly don't think that warrants swapping to an lsx.
I love the lsx engines but I also walk them regularly.
09-20-2011, 05:32 PM
#27
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did a few edits. as for your 400 hp machine. (mustang dyno?) awesome ! and when can i drive it? to be fair,
there are countless others who've failed, as they weren't so well prepared. or lucky.
i patiently await the discovery of anyone who's been driving a 968 engine for the "good while now" at anywhere close to 500 hp.
well, you know... my 200 mph transmission is now done so........
there are countless others who've failed, as they weren't so well prepared. or lucky.
i patiently await the discovery of anyone who's been driving a 968 engine for the "good while now" at anywhere close to 500 hp.
well, you know... my 200 mph transmission is now done so........
09-20-2011, 05:55 PM
#28
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Thread Starter
I understand your aprehension.
I actually feel better using trap speed over dyne numbers as they are truly real world and not to mention about any dyne reads higher than using trap speed so I'd truly be on the lower side of the numbers by comparing to dyne charts. They don't mean much to me honestly.
You could drive my car anytime as I drive it every day.
It would be nice to do a comparison with an lsx setup but it seems none of them want to come out and play
I actually feel better using trap speed over dyne numbers as they are truly real world and not to mention about any dyne reads higher than using trap speed so I'd truly be on the lower side of the numbers by comparing to dyne charts. They don't mean much to me honestly.
You could drive my car anytime as I drive it every day.
It would be nice to do a comparison with an lsx setup but it seems none of them want to come out and play
09-20-2011, 06:16 PM
#29
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odurandina - Sids car: 2980lbs, 118mph trap speed... that is a TRUE 400rwhp, at an DA of ~8000ft.
And crying about a head-gasket is about the last thing I can think of Sid doing, lol.
No, these cars will never be 1000hp monsters (but neither are Supras without a significant amount of work). But, I don't think that was Sid's point anyway.
Sid is correct, I doubt any of the LSx guys want to come out, I don't blame them - as their ~400rwhp turns into ~300rwhp at our tracks DA... I wouldn't want to get shown-up by some lowly 2.5L turbo-4s either.
And crying about a head-gasket is about the last thing I can think of Sid doing, lol.
No, these cars will never be 1000hp monsters (but neither are Supras without a significant amount of work). But, I don't think that was Sid's point anyway.
Sid is correct, I doubt any of the LSx guys want to come out, I don't blame them - as their ~400rwhp turns into ~300rwhp at our tracks DA... I wouldn't want to get shown-up by some lowly 2.5L turbo-4s either.
09-20-2011, 06:50 PM
#30
Race Car
I personally feel that though the 951 may not have the same power band, build and vendors it has achieved a larger amount of interest in the past 10 yrs. Honestly the younger crowds (myself included) seem to have taken a larger notice to these cars in hopes of finding something different that does indeed have great potential compared to a stock setup.
I mean look a factory 951 is 220-250hp at the crank, with pretty minor/medium mods many have achieved 300+ whp which is a huge improvement over stock power so it makes for a great affordable, different, classy and respectable car.
So it might not be a Supra but it is definitely making itself known among car enthusiasts.
I mean look a factory 951 is 220-250hp at the crank, with pretty minor/medium mods many have achieved 300+ whp which is a huge improvement over stock power so it makes for a great affordable, different, classy and respectable car.
So it might not be a Supra but it is definitely making itself known among car enthusiasts.