Tuning Devices
07-12-2003, 06:42 PM
#31
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TT
No this was not what I was looking for. It is what I am dreaming of. Please let me know when it is available for purchase.
Danno
Regarding load calculation, I believe that load is calculated as air flow divided by rpm i.e. not just AFM voltage since a certain flow could mean high load at low rpm or low load at high rpm. Correct me if I am wrong.
I wonder, at what values do you get a switch to next row?
Is it correct that the injector duty cycle is based on the interpreted flow signal modified by the correction factor in the look up cell? What other correction factors are there (FQS etc)?
Bengt
No this was not what I was looking for. It is what I am dreaming of. Please let me know when it is available for purchase.
Danno
Regarding load calculation, I believe that load is calculated as air flow divided by rpm i.e. not just AFM voltage since a certain flow could mean high load at low rpm or low load at high rpm. Correct me if I am wrong.
I wonder, at what values do you get a switch to next row?
Is it correct that the injector duty cycle is based on the interpreted flow signal modified by the correction factor in the look up cell? What other correction factors are there (FQS etc)?
Bengt
07-12-2003, 07:14 PM
#32
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Bengt,
The base injector pulse width is derived directly from AirFlow/RPM. Load for Motronic is a set fraction of that value. For the VAF Motronic, air flow is in volume/time. For MAF Motronic, (later M1.X versions) air flow is in mass/time. For the 951, one atm is a load value of 110. The relationship between load and manifold pressure is linear below 1 atm and nonlinear (need to factor in intake manifold temp) while under boost. Your observations about load are correct.
To name a few modifiers, the base value is then modified with:
Start enrichment, acceleration enrichment, O2 adjustment value (later versions also include an additional water temp based adjustments for cat cars), altitude adjustment (VAF cars), Air Temp adjustment (VAF cars for the mass conversion), FQS and the interpolated cell value from the appropriate Idle/PtThrottle/WOT map.
You are learning well grasshopper. Now ****** this pebble from my hand. <img border="0" alt="[bigbye]" title="" src="graemlins/xyxwave.gif" />
The base injector pulse width is derived directly from AirFlow/RPM. Load for Motronic is a set fraction of that value. For the VAF Motronic, air flow is in volume/time. For MAF Motronic, (later M1.X versions) air flow is in mass/time. For the 951, one atm is a load value of 110. The relationship between load and manifold pressure is linear below 1 atm and nonlinear (need to factor in intake manifold temp) while under boost. Your observations about load are correct.
To name a few modifiers, the base value is then modified with:
Start enrichment, acceleration enrichment, O2 adjustment value (later versions also include an additional water temp based adjustments for cat cars), altitude adjustment (VAF cars), Air Temp adjustment (VAF cars for the mass conversion), FQS and the interpolated cell value from the appropriate Idle/PtThrottle/WOT map.
You are learning well grasshopper. Now ****** this pebble from my hand. <img border="0" alt="[bigbye]" title="" src="graemlins/xyxwave.gif" />
07-12-2003, 07:45 PM
#34
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TT... I remember you working on this a long time ago, and back then, you had some really sweet data logging happening.
I was interested then, and I am still interested. With my new upgrades and fresh motor, I have been toggling between a stand alone system, or crossing my fingers that I have it tuned right. I do not want to pitch my current set up, and all I really ever wanted was a good data logging program that a monkey could understand. Then again, the ability to tweak intrests me even more.
Please keep us updated, and if your list from before has vanished, add me to the new one.
Excellent work. From the response so far, you have developed something that a mess of us have wanted for a long time.
I was interested then, and I am still interested. With my new upgrades and fresh motor, I have been toggling between a stand alone system, or crossing my fingers that I have it tuned right. I do not want to pitch my current set up, and all I really ever wanted was a good data logging program that a monkey could understand. Then again, the ability to tweak intrests me even more.
Please keep us updated, and if your list from before has vanished, add me to the new one.
Excellent work. From the response so far, you have developed something that a mess of us have wanted for a long time.
07-12-2003, 08:18 PM
#35
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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">TT, any plans of adding a knock display to the rest of the displays? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">I am currently monitoring Pin 15 of the KLR but have yet to see any change in the output. That would mean: 1) no knocking has ever occurred (I have been running the stock ignition maps) 2) my knock sensor or KLR is dead or 3) the KLR does not toggle that signal. I have wired Pin 16 to my board, but haven't written any software yet to monitor it. I do have a couple of unused digital outputs of which one could be used to display a knock led in the cockpit. I am loath to experiment with that portion of the DME/KLR yet with my own vehicle but will gladly accept volunteers for destructive testing. 
Perry
Yes I wrote about this last September. If you are interested in data logging only, that is one situation I addressed in my design. Items left to be filled in currently are WB O2 support (I have an input for one, need to address the different models), narrowband O2 output (support is there also), overrev indication (rev limit stuff is in the real time loop inside Motronic, I just need to add a resetable flag) and the knock display issue above. Items not visible in the display but monitored are the overboost protection flags (yellow indicator in the MAP displays when you initially exceed the boost limit, red indicator displays when you are there too long and the fuel cuts) and other normal fuel cut situations which are displayed in the duty cycle window.
If anyone is interested, I could post a version of the monitor software along with a data file.
Perry
Yes I wrote about this last September. If you are interested in data logging only, that is one situation I addressed in my design. Items left to be filled in currently are WB O2 support (I have an input for one, need to address the different models), narrowband O2 output (support is there also), overrev indication (rev limit stuff is in the real time loop inside Motronic, I just need to add a resetable flag) and the knock display issue above. Items not visible in the display but monitored are the overboost protection flags (yellow indicator in the MAP displays when you initially exceed the boost limit, red indicator displays when you are there too long and the fuel cuts) and other normal fuel cut situations which are displayed in the duty cycle window.
If anyone is interested, I could post a version of the monitor software along with a data file.
07-12-2003, 09:02 PM
#36
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I would love to try the data logging. (and later, the whole shebang once I start learning some of the Motronic code) What would be needed to get the real time data out of the DME into a DB9 for the laptop? How much $$ do you want for your time in on this? I don't think anyone would be unhappy paying you some cash for your efforts.
Keep me in the loop.
Keep me in the loop.
07-12-2003, 10:14 PM
#37
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ok, let me make sure I am understanding this right. This will alow us to plug in a laptop and monitor just about everything in real time. It will also alow us to edit most everything. We can than upload and store multiple files on the DME, that we can later switch between. All done useing the stock system and sensors (except for a MAF)
If this is so, than I think this is the biggest improvement for our cars since the Autothority MAF came out like 15 years ago. I would love to see you market this at a price that would blow everything ellse away. Where in Md are you? About how fare from Fairfax Va? I would LOVE to see this in action.
If this is so, than I think this is the biggest improvement for our cars since the Autothority MAF came out like 15 years ago. I would love to see you market this at a price that would blow everything ellse away. Where in Md are you? About how fare from Fairfax Va? I would LOVE to see this in action.
07-12-2003, 10:56 PM
#38
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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica"> ok, let me make sure I am understanding this right. This will alow us to plug in a laptop and monitor just about everything in real time. It will also alow us to edit most everything. We can than upload and store multiple files on the DME, that we can later switch between. All done useing the stock system and sensors (except for a MAF) </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Selecting a MAF is as easy as this:
<img src="http://mywpages.comcast.net/twthacker/MAFSEL.JPG" alt=" - " />
I currently have support for the MAFs Pro-Flow sells and will be adding capability to manually enter a flow sheet.
I have MAFs running on both my 951 and my 944. My 944 MAF install does not use the MSLEP module. Straight up chip install, no *****, buttons, tweaking. I coded up a special chip for it. Two sets of maps AND two different rev limits selectable by the coding plug. One is stock maps and the stock rev limit of 6640, the other is more advanced maps that contain cells up to 7000 rpm with a 7000 rpm rev limit.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica"> Where in Md are you? About how fare from Fairfax Va? I would LOVE to see this in action.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Maybe about an hour drive. Email me if you would like a demo.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica"> Perry 951: Keep me in the loop. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">It has been two years worth of research and it really started to move in March with all the pieces coming together. I will keep you posted.
<img src="http://mywpages.comcast.net/twthacker/MAFSEL.JPG" alt=" - " />
I currently have support for the MAFs Pro-Flow sells and will be adding capability to manually enter a flow sheet.
I have MAFs running on both my 951 and my 944. My 944 MAF install does not use the MSLEP module. Straight up chip install, no *****, buttons, tweaking. I coded up a special chip for it. Two sets of maps AND two different rev limits selectable by the coding plug. One is stock maps and the stock rev limit of 6640, the other is more advanced maps that contain cells up to 7000 rpm with a 7000 rpm rev limit.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica"> Where in Md are you? About how fare from Fairfax Va? I would LOVE to see this in action.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Maybe about an hour drive. Email me if you would like a demo.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica"> Perry 951: Keep me in the loop. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">It has been two years worth of research and it really started to move in March with all the pieces coming together. I will keep you posted.
07-12-2003, 10:56 PM
#39
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TT...This is so cool, I hope I can afford it when you are ready to sell kits.
I see you are using it with a MAF...Will it work with the stock AFM?
How long to you think till you will have kits for sale?
Keep up the good work, its really impressive.
I see you are using it with a MAF...Will it work with the stock AFM?
How long to you think till you will have kits for sale?
Keep up the good work, its really impressive.
07-12-2003, 11:06 PM
#40
If I'm not mistaken, we 951 owners seem to be getting quite a few new parts/products offered lately. Very nice to see more options offered. Especially good to see different products offered. There are many that do the same, but we are seeing a good variety of products from many new vendors.
If I can make another observation, seems alot of the new cool stuff is been offered by new vendors, and not the existing long established vendors. Could it be a case of taking your customer base for granted here.
We see Guru, Vitesse, and some others who not so long ago, were not known. The old guard is not keeping up here. With the advent of electronics leading the way of engine developemnt, and chassis setup, these new companies appear to be at the front of this electronic aftermarket revolution. As with most development in any field, everyone has his day. Some appear to have had their day. The old established 944/951 vendors seem to be lagging behind and counting on us buying the same old stuff. Could it be that much of this new electronics is beyond them. The new guard is here, to our benefit. Now we have more to choose from, and much of it is new to us 951 owners. Well done everyone, and keep up the great work.
If I can make another observation, seems alot of the new cool stuff is been offered by new vendors, and not the existing long established vendors. Could it be a case of taking your customer base for granted here.
We see Guru, Vitesse, and some others who not so long ago, were not known. The old guard is not keeping up here. With the advent of electronics leading the way of engine developemnt, and chassis setup, these new companies appear to be at the front of this electronic aftermarket revolution. As with most development in any field, everyone has his day. Some appear to have had their day. The old established 944/951 vendors seem to be lagging behind and counting on us buying the same old stuff. Could it be that much of this new electronics is beyond them. The new guard is here, to our benefit. Now we have more to choose from, and much of it is new to us 951 owners. Well done everyone, and keep up the great work.
07-12-2003, 11:19 PM
#41
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TT,
This is a very nice products. It appears that you spent plenty of time designing and adding features worth having. Good job!
I wish I had access to a tool like this years ago. It sure beats remembering where the maps are and figuring things out the hard way.
The Data Logging capability is nice. A tool like this enhances productivity when tuning.
Keep us updated of your progress! Best of luck!
This is a very nice products. It appears that you spent plenty of time designing and adding features worth having. Good job!
I wish I had access to a tool like this years ago. It sure beats remembering where the maps are and figuring things out the hard way.
The Data Logging capability is nice. A tool like this enhances productivity when tuning.
Keep us updated of your progress! Best of luck!
07-13-2003, 11:10 AM
#42
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Holy mother of ......... You mean that this basically replaces the chip AND allows the massagin of the signal!? Aswell as datalogging just about everything!
Talk about a holy grail! TT, pretty please keep us all very closely informed on this one!
Do you have any idea how close to completion you are?
Talk about a holy grail! TT, pretty please keep us all very closely informed on this one!
Do you have any idea how close to completion you are?
07-13-2003, 05:48 PM
#43
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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Originally posted by Bengt Sweden:
<strong>TT
No this was not what I was looking for. It is what I am dreaming of. Please let me know when it is available for purchase.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Bengt, you just took the words right out of my mouth.
At the moment I'm using the logging capability of the TechEdge WB02 unit, to monitor and improve the the signal of my Pro-M MAF. I've done a reasonable job, but compared to TT's solution it's quite amateuristic.
TT, I had the same toughts about the Motronic engine management. The only thing that's missing from the stock system is real time editing and feedback monitoring and any product that can do this, without the installation of a complete new wiring harness or other rather complicated installation, has my interest.
You can put me also on the list as potential customer.
<strong>TT
No this was not what I was looking for. It is what I am dreaming of. Please let me know when it is available for purchase.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Bengt, you just took the words right out of my mouth.
At the moment I'm using the logging capability of the TechEdge WB02 unit, to monitor and improve the the signal of my Pro-M MAF. I've done a reasonable job, but compared to TT's solution it's quite amateuristic.
TT, I had the same toughts about the Motronic engine management. The only thing that's missing from the stock system is real time editing and feedback monitoring and any product that can do this, without the installation of a complete new wiring harness or other rather complicated installation, has my interest.
You can put me also on the list as potential customer.
07-13-2003, 07:08 PM
#44
Race Director
"Regarding load calculation, I believe that load is calculated as air flow divided by rpm i.e. not just AFM voltage since a certain flow could mean high load at low rpm or low load at high rpm.
Bengt, the initial injector pulse calculation is computed from just air-flow voltage and RPM:
<img src="http://www.gururacing.net/ImagesMisc/VAF-Conversion3.gif" alt=" - " />
"The base injector pulse width is derived directly from AirFlow/RPM. - TT"
What TT has also done is changed this initial calculation to incorporate the specific CFM-to-voltage curves of various MAF sensors.
Then the other corrections are added to this base injector value, such as the "fuel maps" that are user-programmable on the chips (in effect VE maps):
<img src="http://www.gururacing.net/ImagesMisc/PartialThrottleFuelMaps.jpg" alt=" - " />
By using the voltage X RPM reference point in the initial conversion, you can figure out which cell to modify in the adjustment maps later.
"You mean that this basically replaces the chip AND allows the massagin of the signal!?"
Mike, it is not massaging anything. You are changing the exact fuel-values in the cell that is referenced by the Load X RPM look-up. When you change the value, the look-up point does not change like with signal-interceptors.
Bengt, the initial injector pulse calculation is computed from just air-flow voltage and RPM:
<img src="http://www.gururacing.net/ImagesMisc/VAF-Conversion3.gif" alt=" - " />
"The base injector pulse width is derived directly from AirFlow/RPM. - TT"
What TT has also done is changed this initial calculation to incorporate the specific CFM-to-voltage curves of various MAF sensors.
Then the other corrections are added to this base injector value, such as the "fuel maps" that are user-programmable on the chips (in effect VE maps):
<img src="http://www.gururacing.net/ImagesMisc/PartialThrottleFuelMaps.jpg" alt=" - " />
By using the voltage X RPM reference point in the initial conversion, you can figure out which cell to modify in the adjustment maps later.
"You mean that this basically replaces the chip AND allows the massagin of the signal!?"
Mike, it is not massaging anything. You are changing the exact fuel-values in the cell that is referenced by the Load X RPM look-up. When you change the value, the look-up point does not change like with signal-interceptors.