DangerIsland

I think there are two flaws here:

1) There are real problems with some of the business practices and communication with the tuners out there. Every one of them has unhappy customers for this reason. However... There are very very few people that have genuine complaints about the quality of the products. The must common problem is "Mr. X sure can make a nice Widget2000, but he charged me and never shipped it. Once I got it, it was great."

2) Some of the best engine builders out there have never touched a computer. There is a local guy in town that does 911 engines, he's amazing, and everyone knows it. Does he do 3D modeling and fluid dynamics studies of parts? No, he does something more important, he builds engines and talks to people who race them, finds out what works, learns from it, and then gets better with time.

Dropping $40k on a computer-designed wizbang motor will (probably) not solve the problems that seem to be plaguing the 944 world... it will not make the tuners work better (or use better business proactices), and might not even make a better motor! It's an interesting excercise, and a great way to spend a lot of cash, but I think that's about it.

rcldesign

Another thing to keep in mind... the idea is to work with a 951 motor here... do you think any practicle business person would invest scores of money in real research and development, likely having to hire an engineer to perform many tasks, when their primary market is a couple thousand cars that are typically worth around $10K? I don't think it makes any economical sense. Why reinvent the wheel? True, some people have actually re-designed pieces of the 951 to work better - namely in the manifold and exhaust areas. Some people may use simulation software to fiddle with different cam profiles. But, I don't think you'll find anyone that is going to redesign a head, or do any sort of stress calculations on rods.

Just my $0.02. BTW - if anyone DOES get a 951 motor in to solidworks, I would be interested in playing with it - I want to make the 16V head twin plug - and some other goodies.

Dead - 951

I can see how it does not make business sense, but that is why I am doing it myself. To cut My costs. I need to get the software anyway and I figured what I make for myself would also benefit others in the 944 community.

The only way I can get an improved head design on my car is to redesign it myself. Since it is done for my own personal satisfaction, I would not consider it a waste of time. It also has the side benefit of drastically reducing the R&D costs for the benefit of all in the 944 world.

So how does a 16v, electronically actuated valve train (no more timing belt <img border="0" alt="[jumper]" title="" src="graemlins/jumper.gif" /> ), hemisphereical cumbustion chambered, twin plug, and big water passaged head sound. <img border="0" alt="[burnout]" title="" src="graemlins/burnout.gif" />

And yes. It will mate directly to a 2.5L block. <img border="0" alt="[byebye]" title="" src="graemlins/wave.gif" />

Stephen

Steve Lavigne

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Originally posted by rcldesign:
<strong>...I want to make the 16V head twin plug...</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica"><img border="0" alt="[hiha]" title="" src="graemlins/roflmao.gif" />

DangerIsland

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Originally posted by Dead - 951:
<strong>

So how does a 16v, electronically actuated valve train (no more timing belt <img border="0" alt="[jumper]" title="" src="graemlins/jumper.gif" /> ), hemisphereical cumbustion chambered, twin plug, and big water passaged head sound. <img border="0" alt="[burnout]" title="" src="graemlins/burnout.gif" />

And yes. It will mate directly to a 2.5L block. <img border="0" alt="[byebye]" title="" src="graemlins/wave.gif" />

Stephen </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">And then you woke up... Sounds like a pipe dream!

Dead - 951

We can always dream.
Still, it would be an interesting endeavor.

Stephen

Dead - 951

And alot of work!!!

Steve Lavigne

I want to hear more about twin plugging the 16 valve cylinder heads. Do tell.

rcldesign, how come Derek didn't include this modification in the list he made earlier in this thread?

Dead - 951

Maybe it's just me, but wouldn't one think that four valves leaves little room for two plugs. I would have to actually get the dimensions to confirm that, though.

Still waiting on the software.

Steve Lavigne

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Originally posted by Dead - 951:
<strong>Maybe it's just me, but wouldn't one think that four valves leaves little room for two plugs. I would have to actually get the dimensions to confirm that, though.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">That was kind of my point. The factory twin-plugged their two valve race and late model air cooled heads, but of course used a single plug in their water cooled 4 valve cylinder head designs, including the 928, 959, 956, 962, GT1, and 996 models.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Originally posted by Dead - 951:
<strong>Still waiting on the software. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Me too... Kazaa is plodding along.

Ahmet

lol

Bill

There are those that have never done, and say it can't be done.

There are those that say it can't be done, try to do, and find out that it can't be done.

There are those that say it can be done, try to do, and find out that it can't be done.

There are those that say it can be done, try to do, and it is done.

WHICH ONE ARE YOU?

AlexE

and add...........

There are those that say it can be done, NEVER DO IT, and continue to spout of that it can be done

..........

interesting thread....... but what I would rather see, is an all out Tuners shoot out.... everyone bring a stock 951 ....on day 1 run Stage 1 setups, Stage 2 on second day.... and on the third day do a free for all.

Give me dyno numbers.
Real world numbers (emissions, idling, mileage, running rich/lean etc)
Independant drivers opinions.
etc.etc.etc.

Then who ever wins can brag and the rest can go back and do their homework...and do it again next year. Thats how you will see the best product year after year!

Just a thought.

rcldesign

I don't think that Derrek listed a twin-plug 16V head because (if I recall correctly) the parameters called for an 8V head. Plus, I don't know of anyone that has twin plugged one of these heads.

There is a cracked 16V head sitting at Huntley that I picked up and looked at. I think it would be pretty easy to find room for 2 plugs per cylinder. Twin plugs = better combustion = (maybe, untested on a 951) more boost.

The electronic valve control would be very cool. If I'm not mistaken, the BMW forumla engines use this technology. Its not exactly trivial to implement. However, by electronically controlling the valves, you can (as BMW has done) get rid of your throttle body. Why? All you have to do is open the valves more or less to allow more or less air to come in. (Of course this would require some calculations that include flow rate per valve vs. how much air you want coming through based on an electronic TPS signal, etc.) It *may* be easier to implement the mechanics (some VERY fast solenoids to control hydrolics going to the valves), but the electronics would likely take 40+ man-years (so if we had 40 EE's working on it, it'll take a year - maybe more!). And of course, BMW has done this, so the potential for a lawsuit for patent infrindgement is always going to be there. Maybe someone wants to get a copy of the patent to use as design guidelines? Anyway, back to pipe dreaming...

m42racer

My God, all I was thinking about was new Pistons, Rods, Camshafts, Valve Train, etc.
Stuff we can afford. Maybe save up for, but a least can expect to obtain.

As far as I am concerned, all this BS about Cam driving etc, is nothing but BS. Huntley doing Cam drive design, or whatever he said. I don't think so. Better stick to what easy, and get that right first.

Where did this go!! Some of you bring very good points to the discussion. Others need to keep playing at Disneyland.

I am in discussion with a company who will do new parts for us, and sell them to everyone. Its just a matter of what parts. I have told them what I would like to see and to date all things are possible. This is not a dead issue. I will build an engine and will include only new/different parts. The result may be nothing different, but if you don't try, how will you ever know.