toddk911

If/when 13-15psi is held, he would be well over 238whp. Hp would be much closer to the tq results, maybe 20hp or so less than tq? So easily 260whp+

So as it stands, 330 tq at the crank on almost a stock car. LOL Nice!!

User 41221

In the interest of accuracy and fairness, have you heard of the Vitesse V-Flex? Vitesse introduced the concept of reading actual boost in the DME over 2.5 years ago. What is it that Rogue is doing that is different? I agree that as long as there is a market for these cars, we should benefit from evolution of the products and hat's off to Rogue for trying to bring new products out, but I don't understand how V-Flex reading actual boost from the DME (using a MAP sensor) is different from what you are saying is new about Rogue's product. It was my understanding that the difference was that Rogue was going to use an open source model rather than proprietary code. What is actually being accomplished sounds like the same thing, so maybe someone could chime in and explain to me what it is that I don't understand.

Fair disclosure here, I am running Vitesse equipment on my car and am very happy with it, but I receive no compensation/consideration nor am I a representative of Vitesse.

Regards, ...Scott

blown 944

Well since I am somewhat in the know and feel tgat if kept a fair discussion...

I believe the difference is that the current setup utilizes the map sensor quite differently. It is my understanding that the vflex is still using a WOT table rather than being mapped out fully.

From my understanding this is why the vendor recommends specific tunes for various turbos. From what I have read on here it sounds like tge map sensor is not being utilized for all of the timing maps. The example I can remember being talked about was regarding how one setup could not be used with a quick spoiling turbo and a laggy turbo without needing a different chip.

Josh has set it up so the map sensor understands pressure at all rpms and is mapped accordingly.

If I am wrong I apologize but tgat is my understanding.

m73m95

That's pretty much what I understood, as well.

Vitesse's setup only uses boost pressure to pull timing at higher boost pressures.

Rogue's setup uses it as an actual sensor input for timing in all maps, at high and low pressure..which is why its a true 3D map.

schip43

Well I'm gonna say it cost! The V Flex option cost more than an assembled Megasquirt. Yeah their is the hassle factor and the crank trigger but I have a problem with that kinda cost for a software option!

If Rouge cab delivery the same or similar flexibility at a lower price point that's pretty much a no brainer for me!

fast951

blown 944 & m73m95, I understand your enthusiasm, it's great that you were/are part of a new development. This thread is not about Vitesse, so I'm keeping my post as short as possible. A few incorrect technical statements regarding the Vitesse products were made, just want to correct and clarify.

Not sure what information you are using, however both of your descriptions of how Vitesse uses the MAP sensor is incorrect. We use the input from the MAP sensor across the RPM and boost range (low boost and high boost), not limited to PT or WOT tables or to a particular RPM. A additional dimension "D" is added to the tables and as a result you get virtual "xD" tables as other variables are applied.
The MAP sensor input is also used to handle more complex and critical conditions... We have been doing this for over 2.5 years now..

We have a brief explanation of how the Vitesse products work on our website (I know it will help to add details and to include all the features; I'm working on it). If it matters to you, and if it helps eliminate any misconception of how the Vitesse products work, I can expand just not in this thread.

m73m95

I think that would be helpful to everybody interested in buying a MAF kit...any MAF kit.

I guess I'm not understanding what "virtual xD tables" are?

Its pretty well known that, at this time, your MAF kit is the only kit using true MAF code. Rogue will be releasing his kit very soon, so there will be another true MAF kit for 951 owners to choose from. I think it would be great to have as much information as possible, on both vendors kits, so people can make an informed decision on which kit to purchase.

refresh951

What amazes me is that with the A-Tune I have a DME that understands boost and 3-D maps for $300. For those of us with small budgets and lightly modified cars this gives us some real solid options.

blown 944

I had typed out a bit of a longer response then I was logged out UGH.

First off it said that I respect your products and your contribution to the community.

I was then asking a few questions regarding the use of your MAP sensor and how I came to my assumptions. It was regarding a statement you had made regarding having to re tune due to turbo selection.

So Your saying your MAP sensor has full timing control and is used as a fueling modifier regardless of load and RPM?
Also are you using the factory style separate WOT map rather than a full 3d map? That is my understanding. I think I had remembered that from a tuning thread.

I you'd prefer to chat in another thread I can fully understand that.

I have found these MAF discussions to be very valuable to the community IE; True MAF vs what had been in the past.

Just an FYI I am just an enthusiast, and I am certainly happy for all the help I have received from both parties. I understand it is a business as well,but understanding the products fully could help everyone in the future since the distinctions could become very blurred. Thanks for the response

zerMATT951

While I don't claim to know much about Vitesse other than some research I did a few years ago when I was thinking about replacing my APE maf/chips with Vitesse maf/chips, let me point out one difference that seems pretty clear to me... feel free to shoot holes in this if I'm wrong.

The anticipated Rogue solution has three key benefits: 1) 3D AF mapping throughout the rev range, 2) MAP sensor to compensate for an infinite (?) variety of turbo sizes/types and resulting boost pressures if enough fuel is available, and 3) low price (unknown at this point).

My research of Vitesse options a few years back included a maf with chips that needed to be tuned to my particular setup to get the correct AFR. Piggy back options were available for me to tweek the map myself, but proper tweeking would involve logging AFR somehow, and sending the chips back for modification to "fix" lean or rich conditions at particular RPM's. Do I at least have that much correct?

The newer V-Flex system may address the offline tweeking, so that issue may be solved, but when I just looked at the Vitesse site for maf/chip options, I don't see any maf/chip options that don't also include a new turbo (Stage 1-5). It seems like the least expensive V-Flex option available right now would be over $2,600, which would include a Stage 1 turbo, chip, and maf, plus the V-Flex add-on. Maybe there is a maf/chip/V-Flex option that isn't obvious on the website and all that can be had for something like $1,500 but I'm not finding it? If that exists, would that system allow for me to swap in something like 80# injectors and a bigger turbo of my choice down the road without sending the chips for reprogramming?

Edit: Dug around the menus on the Vitesse site and found that I was missing the MAF/Chip option, it's there for $1,500. Add a piggy-back and V-Flex for a total of $2,750-$2,850 entry for the complete package.

User 41221

Lets not derail this thread too much. John addressed points #1 and 2 above with his post, but if it wasn't enough, I think a separate thread is in order.

The big question that I am sure Joshua is tired of being asked... how soon and how much!? Once some of the M-tune installs hit the streets, we'll hopefully get a lot of real world answers that should tell us all we need to know about "how well"

zerMATT951

You're right... should have put that in a new thread or just called John to ask questions.

Voith

One thing is for shure. Price/Performance of A tune beats every other option by far. I wonder how e-tune will compare price-wise to other options.

schip43

Ok I give up what is E-tune?

zerMATT951

Assuming we're talking about M-Tune, yes, I agree. It seems like all of the official hints we have heard are pointing to a low price point. I'm sure that a lot of it comes down hard costs like the MAF / elbow / filter arrangement, but the investment of time that Joshua has put into reverse-engineering & re-writing the DME code could add up as well. Hopefully Josh is planning to make that up in volume versus trying to pay for his labor in the first 10 units sold.