SDS/Stand alone/Engine management
06-11-2002, 07:39 PM
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SDS/Stand alone/Engine management
Would anyone like to give a over view of stand alone, engine management systems, etc. (or are they the same???)
From what I have read, I think I am leaning this way as opposed the the MAF, bigger turbo route first, then maybe the MAF, turbo after I have the foundation laid of an engine mangement system.
All opinions welcome. On which one to go with, company, prices, pros/cons. etc. Or if you disagree and think th MAF/turbo route is the way to go
From what I have read, I think I am leaning this way as opposed the the MAF, bigger turbo route first, then maybe the MAF, turbo after I have the foundation laid of an engine mangement system.
All opinions welcome. On which one to go with, company, prices, pros/cons. etc. Or if you disagree and think th MAF/turbo route is the way to go
06-11-2002, 08:40 PM
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why don't you check the latest mails on this topic? the same question has been discussed MANY times on this board and you will find many infos.
Konstantin
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06-11-2002, 09:40 PM
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I think it really depends on where you want to go with the car. The upgrade to standalone is a huge step(trust me, I'm doing it right now). If you have tons of money and can pay people to do your mods for you, then I guess it doesn't really matter. If you're on a budget and planning on doing it yourself, standalone really isn't worth it unless you are planning on going far beyond what is reasonably achievable with a MAF. The increase in cost alone is fairly significant, but if you figure in the hours of work, as well as dyno time there is a big difference. But then I've never seen dyno charts for a DME 2.5L car that were higher then 340rwhp or so. Even cars with that level of horsepower are rare. Now that isn't to say it can't be done with a MAF, but I've seen 2.5L cars with standalone reach around 400rwhp, and there is probably more to be had there.
Consider that a DME car can't run injectors bigger then 55lb/hr (at least to my knowledge). I'm installing 83lb/hr injectors with my TECII setup. Most of the high end standalone systems allow for multiple injectors per cylinder as well.
It's also worth considering that 300-340rwhp is a VERY fast 951. With that power you would have a tough time in most areas finding street cars that could keep up with you. Sure they exist, but they're rare. Also consider that the farther you push, the more stress is getting put on your drivetrain, the better brakes you are going to need, the better wheels and tires, suspension etc. This is an engine designed for 220-250hp. At some point, things like rod bearings and headgaskets and clutches and CV joints start to become wear items like oil filters and spark plugs are to normal cars. When does the car reach this point? I don't think anyone has a real good answer yet - I'm hoping I don't find out but I'm also prepared to face the idea that my "useable" power level may be quite a bit less then the "potentional" power level of the engine I end up with.
Consider that a DME car can't run injectors bigger then 55lb/hr (at least to my knowledge). I'm installing 83lb/hr injectors with my TECII setup. Most of the high end standalone systems allow for multiple injectors per cylinder as well.
It's also worth considering that 300-340rwhp is a VERY fast 951. With that power you would have a tough time in most areas finding street cars that could keep up with you. Sure they exist, but they're rare. Also consider that the farther you push, the more stress is getting put on your drivetrain, the better brakes you are going to need, the better wheels and tires, suspension etc. This is an engine designed for 220-250hp. At some point, things like rod bearings and headgaskets and clutches and CV joints start to become wear items like oil filters and spark plugs are to normal cars. When does the car reach this point? I don't think anyone has a real good answer yet - I'm hoping I don't find out but I'm also prepared to face the idea that my "useable" power level may be quite a bit less then the "potentional" power level of the engine I end up with.
06-11-2002, 10:26 PM
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When I bought my current car it had chips and a turbo. That setup was good for 285 at the rear. Howevever, the air/fuel was heading for the lean side.
I have just completed my Tec3 install with a mid range turbo and on the first dyno session got 348 hp at the rear wheels. That was on pump gas on an 86 degree day without optimal airflow on the intercooler. Nor did I push the igniton advance advance window. Boost building by 3000 and full boost at 4000.
Expenseive, maybe, maybe not. Around $2500 for a Tec3 with sensors and you fabricate the brackets and terminate the harness. You could probably add another $500 and get a kit which would be near plug and play. BTW Electromotive is working on a firmware upgrade so you can use your stock idle air motor. Add another $300 to $500 to dyno tune the car. So you might have upwards of $3500 for the install if you do the work which isn't all that bad.
A MAF kit may run from $800 to $1300.00 To be fair you should also plan on some dyno time. Maybe half the Tec3 since you only have about 3 things to tweek. I left the turbo out since you need one with either route you choose. So it looks like a $2200 gap for the Tec3 and MAF. You can probably get it down to less than a $800 with one of the other stand alones, SDS. Autronic etc.
If you don't ever plan on doing anything else to your car a good MAF isn't a bad idea. But for the price of the SDS, Autronic or Link Plus you should give them a serious look. Make one more mod requiring chips and the cost of doing it right just sucked up your initial savings on one of the lower priced kits. Notice I said lower not cheap. The other stand alones are good pieces of equipment.
Either way you go you will find people here to help. I found a great source in Chris White for my Tec3. He has helped a bunch. I'm ashamed to say it but I didn't buy the system from him. Says a lot about Chris.
Alan
<img src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" border="0" alt="[cheers]" />
I have just completed my Tec3 install with a mid range turbo and on the first dyno session got 348 hp at the rear wheels. That was on pump gas on an 86 degree day without optimal airflow on the intercooler. Nor did I push the igniton advance advance window. Boost building by 3000 and full boost at 4000.
Expenseive, maybe, maybe not. Around $2500 for a Tec3 with sensors and you fabricate the brackets and terminate the harness. You could probably add another $500 and get a kit which would be near plug and play. BTW Electromotive is working on a firmware upgrade so you can use your stock idle air motor. Add another $300 to $500 to dyno tune the car. So you might have upwards of $3500 for the install if you do the work which isn't all that bad.
A MAF kit may run from $800 to $1300.00 To be fair you should also plan on some dyno time. Maybe half the Tec3 since you only have about 3 things to tweek. I left the turbo out since you need one with either route you choose. So it looks like a $2200 gap for the Tec3 and MAF. You can probably get it down to less than a $800 with one of the other stand alones, SDS. Autronic etc.
If you don't ever plan on doing anything else to your car a good MAF isn't a bad idea. But for the price of the SDS, Autronic or Link Plus you should give them a serious look. Make one more mod requiring chips and the cost of doing it right just sucked up your initial savings on one of the lower priced kits. Notice I said lower not cheap. The other stand alones are good pieces of equipment.
Either way you go you will find people here to help. I found a great source in Chris White for my Tec3. He has helped a bunch. I'm ashamed to say it but I didn't buy the system from him. Says a lot about Chris.
Alan
<img src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" border="0" alt="[cheers]" />
06-11-2002, 11:08 PM
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I like what I've read about the LinkPlus System. It comes with a built in MAP sensor, so you would never need the MAF kit. It also uses the stock sensors.
It makes so much sense to me, I'm considering becoming a dealer on the side.
E-mail me for a copy of the manual at bjcamp@rennlist.com
It makes so much sense to me, I'm considering becoming a dealer on the side.
E-mail me for a copy of the manual at bjcamp@rennlist.com
06-11-2002, 11:36 PM
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[quote]Originally posted by KW951:
<strong>But then I've never seen dyno charts for a DME 2.5L car that were higher then 340rwhp or so.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Paul's 951 makes almost 400rwhp using DME and MAF.
[quote]Originally posted by KW951:
<strong>Consider that a DME car can't run injectors bigger then 55lb/hr (at least to my knowledge).</strong><hr></blockquote>
I think that's a misconception. There's at least one person on Rennlist (can't remember who) running 83# injectors using DME. Danno might be able to provide more details in this department.
[quote]Originally posted by KW951:
<strong>At some point, things like ... CV joints start to become wear items like oil filters and spark plugs are to normal cars. When does the car reach this point?</strong><hr></blockquote>
So very true... CV joints are the only items that are giving me problems. I started blowing them when I had chips and AVC-R boost controller dialed to 15psi. I launch my car pretty violently at almost every intersection back then...
<strong>But then I've never seen dyno charts for a DME 2.5L car that were higher then 340rwhp or so.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Paul's 951 makes almost 400rwhp using DME and MAF.
[quote]Originally posted by KW951:
<strong>Consider that a DME car can't run injectors bigger then 55lb/hr (at least to my knowledge).</strong><hr></blockquote>
I think that's a misconception. There's at least one person on Rennlist (can't remember who) running 83# injectors using DME. Danno might be able to provide more details in this department.
[quote]Originally posted by KW951:
<strong>At some point, things like ... CV joints start to become wear items like oil filters and spark plugs are to normal cars. When does the car reach this point?</strong><hr></blockquote>
So very true... CV joints are the only items that are giving me problems. I started blowing them when I had chips and AVC-R boost controller dialed to 15psi. I launch my car pretty violently at almost every intersection back then...
06-12-2002, 05:06 AM
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"Consider that a DME car can't run injectors bigger then 55lb/hr (at least to my knowledge)."
"I think that's a misconception. There's at least one person on Rennlist (can't remember who) running 83# injectors using DME. Danno might be able to provide more details in this department."
I think the #55lb/hr limit that may partially be hearsay because of that stuff that's been thrown around and repeated endlessly as gospel. With my upgrade to #55lb/hr Siemens injectors, I didn't make any fuel-pressure changes because I wanted more fuel in the higher RPMs (if you install larger injectors and turn down fuel-pressure, you're back to the same situation). I then turned down the low & mid-range with the ARC2. My idle setting is at 9 o'clock, with mid at 2 o'clock. So I still have quite a bit of room to turn down idle. Meaning larger injectors will probably work.
But then again, I have the exception of a car. I'm one of the few that got a Huntley Turbo-2/MAF-4 combination to work in the as-shipped configuration without experiencing any idle or off-idle stumbling problems. Didn't have to rotate or relocate the MAF at all...
"I think that's a misconception. There's at least one person on Rennlist (can't remember who) running 83# injectors using DME. Danno might be able to provide more details in this department."
I think the #55lb/hr limit that may partially be hearsay because of that stuff that's been thrown around and repeated endlessly as gospel. With my upgrade to #55lb/hr Siemens injectors, I didn't make any fuel-pressure changes because I wanted more fuel in the higher RPMs (if you install larger injectors and turn down fuel-pressure, you're back to the same situation). I then turned down the low & mid-range with the ARC2. My idle setting is at 9 o'clock, with mid at 2 o'clock. So I still have quite a bit of room to turn down idle. Meaning larger injectors will probably work.
But then again, I have the exception of a car. I'm one of the few that got a Huntley Turbo-2/MAF-4 combination to work in the as-shipped configuration without experiencing any idle or off-idle stumbling problems. Didn't have to rotate or relocate the MAF at all...
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06-12-2002, 08:48 AM
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check my page to see another 400 HP car with DME and MAF
<a href="http://www-public.tu-bs.de:8080/~y0003315/dyno.html#" target="_blank">http://www-public.tu-bs.de:8080/~y0003315/dyno.html#</a>
it is in German but the second graph is easy to understand ;-)
Konstantin
<a href="http://www-public.tu-bs.de:8080/~y0003315/dyno.html#" target="_blank">http://www-public.tu-bs.de:8080/~y0003315/dyno.html#</a>
it is in German but the second graph is easy to understand ;-)
Konstantin
06-12-2002, 01:36 PM
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[quote] If you're on a budget and planning on doing it yourself, standalone really isn't worth it unless you are planning on going far beyond what is reasonably achievable with a MAF. <hr></blockquote>
To say that I disagree with this statement would be a huge understatement. Because I'm on a budget and doing the work myself is precisely why I choose to go with a standalone system (SDS). It was less expensive than a MAF/fuel controller conversion and has almost unlimited potential. Most folks on this board would agree that an MAF conversion alone isn't worth more than 15-20 hp. The same $ investment yielded an utter transformation of my car.
To say that I disagree with this statement would be a huge understatement. Because I'm on a budget and doing the work myself is precisely why I choose to go with a standalone system (SDS). It was less expensive than a MAF/fuel controller conversion and has almost unlimited potential. Most folks on this board would agree that an MAF conversion alone isn't worth more than 15-20 hp. The same $ investment yielded an utter transformation of my car.
06-12-2002, 01:57 PM
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[quote]Originally posted by rage2:
<strong>
So very true... CV joints are the only items that are giving me problems. I started blowing them when I had chips and AVC-R boost controller dialed to 15psi. I launch my car pretty violently at almost every intersection back then...</strong><hr></blockquote>
Yeah, I've lost a CV joint from a hard launch as well. The stocks just don't tolerate wheel hop. I remeber seeing an add in Excellence a while ago for some company selling beefed up CV's and axles. I'll have to look into that once my car is running again.
<strong>
So very true... CV joints are the only items that are giving me problems. I started blowing them when I had chips and AVC-R boost controller dialed to 15psi. I launch my car pretty violently at almost every intersection back then...</strong><hr></blockquote>
Yeah, I've lost a CV joint from a hard launch as well. The stocks just don't tolerate wheel hop. I remeber seeing an add in Excellence a while ago for some company selling beefed up CV's and axles. I'll have to look into that once my car is running again.
06-12-2002, 02:03 PM
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[quote]Originally posted by Russ Murphy:
<strong>
To say that I disagree with this statement would be a huge understatement. Because I'm on a budget and doing the work myself is precisely why I choose to go with a standalone system (SDS). It was less expensive than a MAF/fuel controller conversion and has almost unlimited potential. Most folks on this board would agree that an MAF conversion alone isn't worth more than 15-20 hp. The same $ investment yielded an utter transformation of my car.</strong><hr></blockquote>
How much did the SDS cost, and how much additional time/money was spent on brackets and sensors and tuning time? What kind of work was involved in installing it. Any fabrication?
<strong>
To say that I disagree with this statement would be a huge understatement. Because I'm on a budget and doing the work myself is precisely why I choose to go with a standalone system (SDS). It was less expensive than a MAF/fuel controller conversion and has almost unlimited potential. Most folks on this board would agree that an MAF conversion alone isn't worth more than 15-20 hp. The same $ investment yielded an utter transformation of my car.</strong><hr></blockquote>
How much did the SDS cost, and how much additional time/money was spent on brackets and sensors and tuning time? What kind of work was involved in installing it. Any fabrication?
06-12-2002, 02:29 PM
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<a href="http://forums.rennlist.com/forums/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic&f=18&t=001456" target="_blank">SDS Questions</a>
<a href="http://forums.rennlist.com/forums/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic&f=18&t=000905" target="_blank">SDS Install Complete (sort of)</a>
<a href="http://forums.rennlist.com/forums/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic&f=18&t=000905" target="_blank">SDS Install Complete (sort of)</a>
06-12-2002, 03:34 PM
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[quote]Originally posted by Russ Murphy:
<strong><a href="http://forums.rennlist.com/forums/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic&f=18&t=001456" target="_blank">SDS Questions</a>
<a href="http://forums.rennlist.com/forums/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic&f=18&t=000905" target="_blank">SDS Install Complete (sort of)</a></strong><hr></blockquote>
That certainly is quite a bit less then the electromotive or motec systems. Have you dynoed the car yet(didn't see it in the second thread if it was there)?
<strong><a href="http://forums.rennlist.com/forums/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic&f=18&t=001456" target="_blank">SDS Questions</a>
<a href="http://forums.rennlist.com/forums/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic&f=18&t=000905" target="_blank">SDS Install Complete (sort of)</a></strong><hr></blockquote>
That certainly is quite a bit less then the electromotive or motec systems. Have you dynoed the car yet(didn't see it in the second thread if it was there)?
06-12-2002, 04:52 PM
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No, darn it. I had my dyno day scheduled for the 8th (of June), but the motor started making a knocking noise, so right now the belly pan is off and I'm replacing the rod bearings now as well as installing a T04E/46 and 72# injectors. I really wish I would have gotten a chance to dyno the stock set-up. 
06-12-2002, 05:05 PM
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Here's some seat of the pants dyno info.
<a href="http://forums.rennlist.com/forums/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic&f=18&t=001173" target="_blank">SDS Install -part II</a>
<a href="http://forums.rennlist.com/forums/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic&f=18&t=001173" target="_blank">SDS Install -part II</a>
