Crossroads, what to do…
01-07-2010, 08:14 PM
#1
Three Wheelin'
Thread Starter
Crossroads, what to do…
Update
As I mentioned before the car starts up first time, every time, idles smooth at 900rpm and A/F hovers around 14:7 (+- .3) Took it out for a spin locally, noting when and at what point I see blue smoke. On gradual acceleration shifting gears under 3k there is a faint to no smoke appearing. As I increase rpm's closer to 3500+ rpm there is a plum of smoke at each shift. If I accelerate hard there is a continuous stream of smoke.
gpr8er - I removed the AOS line to the MAF (via catch can) and there were very light but steady puffs of air. Not sure what to think about that.
Thanks again for your suggestions
________________________________________________________________________ ______________
After enduring a frustrating and stressful process of a complete engine rebuild taking more than a year to complete (long story), I have noticed a gradual loss of power over the past summer/fall.
It looks like I may have some fairly serious engine issues and I am very close to cutting my losses and giving up on what started out as a “fun” project. I don‘t want to, but what common sense and logic I have left is…aghhhh, I H-A-T-E giving up!!!
What’s happening…
I recently have been seeing a fair amount of blue smoke on hard acceleration. The car starts up and idles fine at 900rpm with A/F bouncing around 14.3 - 15.1. No smoke at idle or just revving engine. The seat of the pants turbo punch has been fading and had rationalized it as just getting accustomed to way the car drives and accelerates.
Over the holidays I had some time to do some checking of parts and perform some basic engine condition tests, i.e. compression, leak down and a coolant pressurization test. Below are the results of these tests. I would appreciate any diagnostic input regarding these tests.
First, a visual inspection of the turbo, intercooler pipes and TB indicated what I would consider a heavy amount of oil coated in all of them. The turbo itself had a small amount of oil pooled at the bottom of the compressor housing. The TB had enough oil in it, that when I lifted the throttle plate oil dripped out! Wonder how that intake looks??
Compression Test WOT Each cylinder cranked 5 times Pressure built slowly
#1 (80-125) #2 (80-120) #3 (80-125) #4 (80-120)
These numbers represented a 5-7% loss from a year ago.
Leak down Test All cylinders set at TDC held at 18# pressure for 2 minutes
#1 - 7% loss, could hear air through oil filler - quite in exhaust & TB - No bubbles in coolant
#2 - 5% loss, could hear air through oil filler - quite in exhaust & TB - No bubbles in coolant
#3 - 8% loss, could hear air through oil filler - quite in exhaust & TB - No bubbles in coolant
#4 - 9% loss, could hear air through oil filler & slightly in TB- quite in exhaust - No bubbles in coolant
Coolant Test
Pressurized system at 15# for 12 hours and found 2 minor leaks at heater control valve and hose running into cabin. System lost 1.5# pressure and approx.3-4oz fluid. Hoses tightened up, no more leaks.
Oil Analysis
I send samples of the last two oil changes to Blackstone Labs for oil analysis which indicated “no problems with oil contamination and very good engine wear” I also drained the oil through a painters screen and found no debris at any time, plus I had filters cut open and examined. Again, no debris.
Needless to say, I’m completely numb at this point. From the results of the tests my thoughts are the rings, but would that create the oil flow I’m getting through the IC pipes, turbo etc…? Could that be a separate issue…turbo seals???
Thoughts?
As always there are several options that I can consider. 1) part it out, which is a hassle and can take forever. 2) Sell it to LART for pennies on the dollar (nothing personal Luis), or 3) Dive into with the mind set of figuring out the problem (which I believe I have) and fixing it. $$$
My final thoughts, bringing us back to option #3…If I’m going to part it… I might as well start by removing the head and inspecting what’s going on in there. If it’s the rings and can be replaced with no other effect than time and (dare I say it) more $$. It is possible to replace the rings without completely removing the engine? Right?
Again, I would appreciate any comments, suggestions and/or ideas.
Thanks!
As I mentioned before the car starts up first time, every time, idles smooth at 900rpm and A/F hovers around 14:7 (+- .3) Took it out for a spin locally, noting when and at what point I see blue smoke. On gradual acceleration shifting gears under 3k there is a faint to no smoke appearing. As I increase rpm's closer to 3500+ rpm there is a plum of smoke at each shift. If I accelerate hard there is a continuous stream of smoke.
gpr8er - I removed the AOS line to the MAF (via catch can) and there were very light but steady puffs of air. Not sure what to think about that.
Thanks again for your suggestions
________________________________________________________________________ ______________
After enduring a frustrating and stressful process of a complete engine rebuild taking more than a year to complete (long story), I have noticed a gradual loss of power over the past summer/fall.
It looks like I may have some fairly serious engine issues and I am very close to cutting my losses and giving up on what started out as a “fun” project. I don‘t want to, but what common sense and logic I have left is…aghhhh, I H-A-T-E giving up!!!
What’s happening…
I recently have been seeing a fair amount of blue smoke on hard acceleration. The car starts up and idles fine at 900rpm with A/F bouncing around 14.3 - 15.1. No smoke at idle or just revving engine. The seat of the pants turbo punch has been fading and had rationalized it as just getting accustomed to way the car drives and accelerates.
Over the holidays I had some time to do some checking of parts and perform some basic engine condition tests, i.e. compression, leak down and a coolant pressurization test. Below are the results of these tests. I would appreciate any diagnostic input regarding these tests.
First, a visual inspection of the turbo, intercooler pipes and TB indicated what I would consider a heavy amount of oil coated in all of them. The turbo itself had a small amount of oil pooled at the bottom of the compressor housing. The TB had enough oil in it, that when I lifted the throttle plate oil dripped out! Wonder how that intake looks??
Compression Test WOT Each cylinder cranked 5 times Pressure built slowly
#1 (80-125) #2 (80-120) #3 (80-125) #4 (80-120)
These numbers represented a 5-7% loss from a year ago.
Leak down Test All cylinders set at TDC held at 18# pressure for 2 minutes
#1 - 7% loss, could hear air through oil filler - quite in exhaust & TB - No bubbles in coolant
#2 - 5% loss, could hear air through oil filler - quite in exhaust & TB - No bubbles in coolant
#3 - 8% loss, could hear air through oil filler - quite in exhaust & TB - No bubbles in coolant
#4 - 9% loss, could hear air through oil filler & slightly in TB- quite in exhaust - No bubbles in coolant
Coolant Test
Pressurized system at 15# for 12 hours and found 2 minor leaks at heater control valve and hose running into cabin. System lost 1.5# pressure and approx.3-4oz fluid. Hoses tightened up, no more leaks.
Oil Analysis
I send samples of the last two oil changes to Blackstone Labs for oil analysis which indicated “no problems with oil contamination and very good engine wear” I also drained the oil through a painters screen and found no debris at any time, plus I had filters cut open and examined. Again, no debris.
Needless to say, I’m completely numb at this point. From the results of the tests my thoughts are the rings, but would that create the oil flow I’m getting through the IC pipes, turbo etc…? Could that be a separate issue…turbo seals???
Thoughts?
As always there are several options that I can consider. 1) part it out, which is a hassle and can take forever. 2) Sell it to LART for pennies on the dollar (nothing personal Luis), or 3) Dive into with the mind set of figuring out the problem (which I believe I have) and fixing it. $$$
My final thoughts, bringing us back to option #3…If I’m going to part it… I might as well start by removing the head and inspecting what’s going on in there. If it’s the rings and can be replaced with no other effect than time and (dare I say it) more $$. It is possible to replace the rings without completely removing the engine? Right?
Again, I would appreciate any comments, suggestions and/or ideas.
Thanks!
Last edited by Fluidplay; 01-09-2010 at 06:35 PM. Reason: Update
01-07-2010, 10:38 PM
#2
Drifting
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those numbers don't look bad there area million reasons why a turbo engine can weaken punch .. have a good look at all the tuning stuff ...
tell us about full load AFR's knock counts temp's oil pressure how the plugs look.Doe's the place you buy gas have good turnover ??or is it stale ...
sit down and back probe all the sensors from the DME plug .
tell us about full load AFR's knock counts temp's oil pressure how the plugs look.Doe's the place you buy gas have good turnover ??or is it stale ...
sit down and back probe all the sensors from the DME plug .
01-08-2010, 12:08 AM
#4
Nordschleife Master
A bad turbo will make a good engine seem bad by excessive exhaust backpressure and low boost output... add in the oil it is blowing into your intake and you have a recipe for disaster...
I would swap turbos before you make any rash decisions, a fresh turbo might just make you fall in love all over again... You can buy a used one or rebuild yours, used GOOD 26-6 for 50-150, but you get what you get, a rebuild will cost approximately $350 but you get basically a 0 mile turbo... I went the rebuild route myself, after getting a used one that needed a rebuild worse than the one I took off my car... fresh turbo made my car come ALIVE.....
Did you do the compression and leakdown on warm or cold engine?
Did you spray oil into the cylinders for a second run at the compression and leakdown test?
Your numbers didn't look bad, especially for a cold or dry engine, and even if warm and dry weren't that bad... hell they are better than mine were 14000 miles ago, and I'm still running my car on a daily basis...
Did you check your vacuum system for any leaks, this could also be a cause of poor performance, as could a weak coil, fouled plugs, old cap/rotor/wires...
01-08-2010, 12:21 AM
#6
Rennlist Member
I had a similar experience with my new motor. Low compression. Like 95#s Pressurizing the crankcase when on boost causing oil leaks.
My problem was that I went to synthetic oil too soon on the new motor. The rings never seated. Did some reading on R/L and decided to go back to a good dyno oil. VR-1. Put a couple thousand miles on the motor and it's now cranking 150#s straight across. I’m staying with the VR-1. Give it a try before throwing in the towel. Only the cost of an oil change.
Still have the weepy turbo seals thou…
My problem was that I went to synthetic oil too soon on the new motor. The rings never seated. Did some reading on R/L and decided to go back to a good dyno oil. VR-1. Put a couple thousand miles on the motor and it's now cranking 150#s straight across. I’m staying with the VR-1. Give it a try before throwing in the towel. Only the cost of an oil change.
Still have the weepy turbo seals thou…
01-08-2010, 12:34 AM
#7
Rennlist Member
oh, and pull the hose from the AOS at the maf j pipe and see if it's dry, the oil might be entering the intake tract from there. You can also idle the motor and check if the hose is puffing air. That's an indication of leaky rings.
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01-08-2010, 02:26 AM
#9
Three Wheelin'
Thread Starter
Thanks for the suggestions and encouragement guys.
Compression and leakdown tests were done on warm engine. I thought compression numbers on a healthy engine would be more like 140+. Anything under 130 would be suspect.
Again, during the leakdown I could hear air blowing though the oil filler tube clearly. My understanding is that is an intication of ring and/or cylinder wall wear. Is there anyother situation that would create this effect?
I've used nothing but VR-1 after the fist 1000 miles.
Compression and leakdown tests were done on warm engine. I thought compression numbers on a healthy engine would be more like 140+. Anything under 130 would be suspect.
Again, during the leakdown I could hear air blowing though the oil filler tube clearly. My understanding is that is an intication of ring and/or cylinder wall wear. Is there anyother situation that would create this effect?
I've used nothing but VR-1 after the fist 1000 miles.
01-08-2010, 02:49 AM
#10
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01-08-2010, 02:58 AM
#11
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Thanks for the suggestions and encouragement guys.
Compression and leakdown tests were done on warm engine. I thought compression numbers on a healthy engine would be more like 140+. Anything under 130 would be suspect.
Again, during the leakdown I could hear air blowing though the oil filler tube clearly. My understanding is that is an intication of ring and/or cylinder wall wear. Is there anyother situation that would create this effect?
I've used nothing but VR-1 after the fist 1000 miles.
Compression and leakdown tests were done on warm engine. I thought compression numbers on a healthy engine would be more like 140+. Anything under 130 would be suspect.
Again, during the leakdown I could hear air blowing though the oil filler tube clearly. My understanding is that is an intication of ring and/or cylinder wall wear. Is there anyother situation that would create this effect?
I've used nothing but VR-1 after the fist 1000 miles.
01-08-2010, 10:12 AM
#12
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How about a build sheet? what did you do to rebuild the engine? how many miles?
Yes, you can rering an engine with out removing it.
Yes, you can rering an engine with out removing it.
01-08-2010, 10:43 AM
#13
Nordschleife Master
Thanks for the suggestions and encouragement guys.
Compression and leakdown tests were done on warm engine. I thought compression numbers on a healthy engine would be more like 140+. Anything under 130 would be suspect.
Again, during the leakdown I could hear air blowing though the oil filler tube clearly. My understanding is that is an intication of ring and/or cylinder wall wear. Is there anyother situation that would create this effect?
I've used nothing but VR-1 after the fist 1000 miles.
Compression and leakdown tests were done on warm engine. I thought compression numbers on a healthy engine would be more like 140+. Anything under 130 would be suspect.
Again, during the leakdown I could hear air blowing though the oil filler tube clearly. My understanding is that is an intication of ring and/or cylinder wall wear. Is there anyother situation that would create this effect?
I've used nothing but VR-1 after the fist 1000 miles.
N/A Compression Ratio (USA) 9.5 : 1
951 Compression Ratio 8.0 : 1
based on sea level 14.7 should yield
N/A 139.65
951 117.6
with variations for engine construction, location, pressure...
my 951 yielded 125ish durring compression check, the important thing to look for is variation on the test from one cylinder to the next (>5% is a trouble indicator, but still OK, >10% is an indication something is wrong in one cylinder)
Your numbers, and the variance isn't bad, not for a warm and dry engine, you MIGHT see higher numbers and less leakdown if you spray a squirt of oil into each cylinder before doing the test... it will lube and seal the rings...
01-09-2010, 06:47 PM
#15
Three Wheelin'
Thread Starter
Update
As I mentioned before the car starts up first time, every time, idles smooth at 900rpm and A/F hovers around 14:7 (+- .3) Took it out for a spin locally, noting when and at what point I see blue smoke. On gradual acceleration shifting gears under 3k there is a faint to no smoke appearing. As I increase rpm's closer to 3500+ rpm there is a plum of smoke at each shift. If I accelerate hard there is a continuous stream of smoke.
gpr8er - I removed the AOS line to the MAF (via catch can) and there were very light but steady puffs of air. Not sure what to think about that.
Thanks again for your suggestions
As I mentioned before the car starts up first time, every time, idles smooth at 900rpm and A/F hovers around 14:7 (+- .3) Took it out for a spin locally, noting when and at what point I see blue smoke. On gradual acceleration shifting gears under 3k there is a faint to no smoke appearing. As I increase rpm's closer to 3500+ rpm there is a plum of smoke at each shift. If I accelerate hard there is a continuous stream of smoke.
gpr8er - I removed the AOS line to the MAF (via catch can) and there were very light but steady puffs of air. Not sure what to think about that.
Thanks again for your suggestions