ITB Intake Manifold interest
09-17-2009, 02:45 PM
#91
Rennlist Junkie Forever
RE: The JME intake. The barrel valve setup is for sure the way to go. But the thing to note is the Millage uses a loaded Motec to drive the system.
The comparing the capabilities of of the Motec to say a TEC3 is like comparing apples to oranges. BIG difference.
Also to note is that these intakes are on race engine, not street engines. Another big difference.
I've done ITB's on 944's and on 911's. If you're going to do it, use a MAF before the plenum. It's either that or a high end engine management system with a LOT of time trying to get it right under all the various atmospheric and engine load conditions.
Lastly... the little individual port to a common plenum thing to get a MAP signal trick... Also been there done that. It sucks. Everything behind the throttle plates that use vacuum will affect the the volumn in the little common plenum. Things like using your a/c controls, the vauum brakes, etc... will all affect the volumn in the plenum, which will affect the MAP signal which will screw things up. That's why that little trick really doesn't work well at on a street car.
TonyG
The comparing the capabilities of of the Motec to say a TEC3 is like comparing apples to oranges. BIG difference.
Also to note is that these intakes are on race engine, not street engines. Another big difference.
I've done ITB's on 944's and on 911's. If you're going to do it, use a MAF before the plenum. It's either that or a high end engine management system with a LOT of time trying to get it right under all the various atmospheric and engine load conditions.
Lastly... the little individual port to a common plenum thing to get a MAP signal trick... Also been there done that. It sucks. Everything behind the throttle plates that use vacuum will affect the the volumn in the little common plenum. Things like using your a/c controls, the vauum brakes, etc... will all affect the volumn in the plenum, which will affect the MAP signal which will screw things up. That's why that little trick really doesn't work well at on a street car.
TonyG
09-17-2009, 02:57 PM
#92
Addict
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Small
Business Sponsor
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Small
Business Sponsor
09-17-2009, 03:02 PM
#93
Rennlist Junkie Forever
09-17-2009, 03:14 PM
#94
Track Day
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 18
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
RE: The JME intake. The barrel valve setup is for sure the way to go. But the thing to note is the Millage uses a loaded Motec to drive the system.
The comparing the capabilities of of the Motec to say a TEC3 is like comparing apples to oranges. BIG difference.
Also to note is that these intakes are on race engine, not street engines. Another big difference.
I've done ITB's on 944's and on 911's. If you're going to do it, use a MAF before the plenum. It's either that or a high end engine management system with a LOT of time trying to get it right under all the various atmospheric and engine load conditions.
Lastly... the little individual port to a common plenum thing to get a MAP signal trick... Also been there done that. It sucks. Everything behind the throttle plates that use vacuum will affect the the volumn in the little common plenum. Things like using your a/c controls, the vauum brakes, etc... will all affect the volumn in the plenum, which will affect the MAP signal which will screw things up. That's why that little trick really doesn't work well at on a street car.
The comparing the capabilities of of the Motec to say a TEC3 is like comparing apples to oranges. BIG difference.
Also to note is that these intakes are on race engine, not street engines. Another big difference.
I've done ITB's on 944's and on 911's. If you're going to do it, use a MAF before the plenum. It's either that or a high end engine management system with a LOT of time trying to get it right under all the various atmospheric and engine load conditions.
Lastly... the little individual port to a common plenum thing to get a MAP signal trick... Also been there done that. It sucks. Everything behind the throttle plates that use vacuum will affect the the volumn in the little common plenum. Things like using your a/c controls, the vauum brakes, etc... will all affect the volumn in the plenum, which will affect the MAP signal which will screw things up. That's why that little trick really doesn't work well at on a street car.
09-17-2009, 03:28 PM
#96
Rennlist Junkie Forever
The TEC3 simply doesn't have enough control to do the job on a street car (with respect to a MAP/ITB setup).
TonyG
09-17-2009, 03:32 PM
#97
Rennlist Junkie Forever
Are you running ITB's on your 944 or have you ever run ITB's on a turbo car?
The deal is that you gain with ITB's is throttle response. It's that little bit of extra power that gets the turbo spooling sooner/faster/harder. That's the reason why you'd use it on a turbo car.
You're not going to make any more power up top from an ITB setup than you would from a properly flowing common plenum setup.
So in a race setup, where 1/10ths add up to an advantage, it's great. But on the street, the cost/benefit/hassle ratio just doesn't add up.
Like I said... I have the exact same setup sitting on the shelf.
TonyG
The deal is that you gain with ITB's is throttle response. It's that little bit of extra power that gets the turbo spooling sooner/faster/harder. That's the reason why you'd use it on a turbo car.
You're not going to make any more power up top from an ITB setup than you would from a properly flowing common plenum setup.
So in a race setup, where 1/10ths add up to an advantage, it's great. But on the street, the cost/benefit/hassle ratio just doesn't add up.
Like I said... I have the exact same setup sitting on the shelf.
TonyG
09-17-2009, 03:46 PM
#98
Banned
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: San Diego
Posts: 1,635
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I am a site sponser and would like to say that your intake looks real nice! Too bad your brother couldn't get over his issues with us, because we could have been working with each other all these years instead of against each other
09-17-2009, 03:47 PM
#99
Addict
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Small
Business Sponsor
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Small
Business Sponsor
I have no problem with Motec other than cost...but to say that the Tec can't control a street engine as well is not correct - you do have to know how to program the Tec as well as want the enigne needs.
In fact I belive that the Tec has more tunabilty for street driven engines, the Motec stuff is much more targeted at track engines (I will admit I haven't looked closely at the Motec systems in a year or two)
The Tec3 works fine on this project....
09-17-2009, 03:51 PM
#100
Addict
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Small
Business Sponsor
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Small
Business Sponsor
BTW – John (Dunkel) – we need a ‘hijack’ icon….sorry Mike & Dave….
09-17-2009, 04:00 PM
#101
Basic Sponsor
Rennlist
Site Sponsor
Rennlist
Site Sponsor
Thread Starter
Would that be an airplane crashing into a tower?
__________________
Mike or Dave Lindsey
www.lindseyracing.com
U.S. 1-877-943-3565
Other 1-405-947-0137
Mike or Dave Lindsey
www.lindseyracing.com
U.S. 1-877-943-3565
Other 1-405-947-0137
09-17-2009, 04:28 PM
#102
I will be buying one of somebodys. Just my opinion, but if there WAS a Lindsey/SFR collaberation I would be more interested in the Lindsey unit. Tim's fab is second to none. The IMA one is pure sex in carbonfiber, but at $6800.00 its like wanting to call strippers over every night. I'd love it but I cant afford it..........
09-17-2009, 04:30 PM
#103
Addict
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Phoenix, AZ - NJ Runaway
Posts: 3,649
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
09-17-2009, 04:50 PM
#104
Rennlist Junkie Forever
Guys...
I never said the TEC3 sucks or that you can't tune to work fine.
What I said was that on a street driven car, with ITB's using a MAP, that it doesn't have the necessary control to do the job. Sure you can do it. Sure it will run "ok", but it will always have drivability issues that will change as the atmospheric conditions change, etc...
That's just the opinion of several of us that have done ITB using MAP with the TEC3 (as well as AEM and Motec).
BUT... what you can do is to use a MAF. The last time I played with a TEC was the TEC3r. It didn't support MAF. I'm not sure if their engine management systems now support MAF or not. The MAF will dramatically make it easier to tune the car and will for sure make it a better setup for the street.
PS> This is why I deleted my original message.
TonyG
I never said the TEC3 sucks or that you can't tune to work fine.
What I said was that on a street driven car, with ITB's using a MAP, that it doesn't have the necessary control to do the job. Sure you can do it. Sure it will run "ok", but it will always have drivability issues that will change as the atmospheric conditions change, etc...
That's just the opinion of several of us that have done ITB using MAP with the TEC3 (as well as AEM and Motec).
BUT... what you can do is to use a MAF. The last time I played with a TEC was the TEC3r. It didn't support MAF. I'm not sure if their engine management systems now support MAF or not. The MAF will dramatically make it easier to tune the car and will for sure make it a better setup for the street.
PS> This is why I deleted my original message.
TonyG
09-17-2009, 04:52 PM
#105
Rennlist Junkie Forever
I will be buying one of somebodys. Just my opinion, but if there WAS a Lindsey/SFR collaberation I would be more interested in the Lindsey unit. Tim's fab is second to none. The IMA one is pure sex in carbonfiber, but at $6800.00 its like wanting to call strippers over every night. I'd love it but I cant afford it..........
Hey... it's only money!
TonyG
