V2Rocket

i cant imagine how easily the V8 car walks away from the similarly-powered turbo cars on any part of the track at less than 4500RPM...in a tight corner there would be no chance...

tone3721

LOL. Yeah, cause all turbos dont boost til 4500. Again your comparing 2.5's. 250-300 before the turbo even spools is realistic with a 3.0. Dont take long for boost to come on with the right set up. Well before 4500. Youd be surprised how quickly boost comes on in some of our cars.

TonyG

It's not a "walk away" thing. It's hard to explain to people that don't race cars.

It's a 1/10th here, a 1/10th there thing.

That's all it takes to make a huge difference in a 15-20 lap race.

The turbo is hard to control compared to the smooth power of the N/A V8. And that makes a big difference on the track.

I've done it both ways, in like-prepared 951's.


TonyG

tone3721

I would think it really comes down to the driver, and track, on a larger displacement i4, with similar numbers. It would take more skill to work the gearbox properly, I could see that.

333pg333

In an inverse way, it's probably up to the modified i4 guys to prove themselves, not the V8 guys. I think we're all on the same page as far as acknowledging the V8 for all of it's qualities. Power, tq, reliability etc. I think these guys have switched for very valid reasons. Tony is the best case in point. I won't be able to compete head to head, so I guess once I have my 3L in I'll have to compare it to other cars on the track here and make some comparisons. If Tony can play and walk away from Cup Cars (that are well driven?) then hats off to him. Those cars are very quick. Out here they're just about a second slower than our Super V8s. These are high tech pro cars with well over 600hp. If Tony's car could keep up with them, then I'm out for sure. That is why I wonder on the quality of those other drivers in some of Tony's videos. That is not a slight on Tony or those guys, I'm just doing some thinking out loud. If Tony's car is anywhere near these guys, it's freaking fast!

Shown below a clip from the Aussie V8s at Bathurst.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7MaNiV7Kwe4

Just a laugh clip. Pretty amazing all the same.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RAaRm4lJMGg

TonyG

tone3721

Uh... I've probably driven more 3.0L and 3.1L 951 turbos than most people. I am quite familiar with them. Everything from low-budget silly 3.0 cobbled-together conversions to full-tilt dry sumped JME 3.1L's.

And my last silly little 2.5L made over 400RWHP at 17psi boost, 415RWHP at 18psi boost, using stock pistons, in race trim.

So I don't need the lecture. I've actually done it. Many times over. And I'm quite familiar with the spool characteristics of many different turbine combos on the various 951 engine displacements.

And while most of my race prepared 951's have been faster than my current LS1 951, they certainly never held together like the LS1 951.

And it's not like my current LS1 is not "powerful", it's that it's basically a stock engine with basic bolt-ons. That's the beauty it. The smallest of the LSx series with nothing more than a mild cam, headers/exhaust, larger throttle body, and flashed PCM and you get 400RWHP.

If I really wanted more power, and I don't, I could easily slap in a stock LS7 with a cam, run 91 octane pump gas, make over 550RWHP (with a 1 year, 12,000 mile factory warranty), and do it all day long, on 110F days, without the engine breaking a sweat. We won't even go into the effects of installing a twin turbo setup on the LSx engine. You definitely don't want to go there....


The bottom line is that you need to adjust your "tone" because there might be people here that know a little more than you about modified 951 engines, their respective characteristics and faults, and what they can and cannot do reliably.


Been there... done that.


TonyG

CPR

The one thing that is continuosly repeated here is the reliability of the SB Chevy.

How many people here have driven one with 70k-100k miles on it, regularly? How many have owned a Chevy LS motor before? Just curious.....

I am not implying that they do not last, but from my personal experience, these motors seem to wear out significantly (maybe 20%-30%?) on the performance side as they increase in mileage...not a good ratio IMO. Try this:

Find a dealer that has a low mile Vette, then find one with a high mile Vette. Test drive both.....the difference should be extremely noticeable. So much, that you might think a bit more about why these motors get so worn out/tired and/or have a much more abbreviated performance life span than the 2.5l.

Inversely, I have driven a 22k mile 951, own a 60k mile 951 and have driven a few 100k mile plus 951's....and they were all relatively the same.

Just something to think about, not trying to start an entirely different arguement....and yes, this is from experience NOT speculation.

porshhhh951

That looks fast. REAL FAST.

TonyG

Patrick,

I appreciate the comments, but no factory based 951/968 will ever stay up with a cup car (996 or 997) apples-to-apples (referring to drivers).

That said... it takes a very good driver to run a cup car at 10/10ths. Not many amateurs can do it... especially on a track like big Willow where the speeds are very high. It's definitely a "big *****" track.

TonyG

TonyG

Point of clarification...

A small block chevy refers to a different engine from the LSx family of engines.

And I agree with your comments on small block chevy engines. But not so with the LSx family of engines.

TonyG

tone3721

There are plenty of people here that know more than me. When did I say or incline otherwise? You need to change your tone, stop trying to convince a bunch of Porsche enthusiasts your GM welfare bailout engine is the end all be all. I think there are plenty to sing your praises on the hybrid forums. Yeah its capable of much more power. If your looking for peak max numbers there is no doubt.....just dont expect the rest of the car to hold up well, or be very driveable. I know that much. Im sick of your arrogance. On a 951 forum no less. Bring that **** to the desert homie, Ill find a driver. Youll need more the 400 ponies. Im capable of 500whp on pump gas.(soon to see exactly where on max boost) **** GM!

tone3721

Where is that video of a 3.0 turbo walking a 997 when you need it?

TonyG

that would be correct


My GM bailout? You sound desperate.


Uh... they are not my "praises".

Those guys were doing these conversions long before me.

Peak or max? I think you have it reversed.

It's capable of a LOT more sustained power fully loaded.


I've got a ton of track days on my LS1 951. Pretty much every week the car is on the track. It's been pretty much bullet-proof.

Then go home.

I'm sick of your know-it-all, but ain't got no direct experience bull****. Typical Internet forum bench racing crap.

There are those of us that do it, and those of us that talk about doing it.

I actually do it... and on a regular basis... for over two decades. How about you? What have you engineered, designed, built, and raced on the 951 platform?

Ok. I'll tell you what.... Here's a Rennlist special challenge

$500 bucks winner take all!

You bring your car to the track. I don't care what 951 engine you run. I'll pay your track fees. Give you a all day day to practice to get to know the track. Then you and I will go at it. Or you can find any driver you want for your car if you're not a comfortable. We'll do 25 laps.

If you win, I pay you $500.

If I win you pay me $500 plus your track fees.

Sound fair?


If so I can arrange the track privately any number of days per month.



I would love to see your engine stay together at 500RWHP for 25 laps. Even if it does (which I don't believe it would), you can count on one thing.... it's life expectancy has been cut in 1/2 if not more


This is where you walk-the-walk...


Let me know.

TonyG

porshhhh951

Where do I send the hookers and beer?

tone3721

Bring it to the desert, and done.