RPHARRIS

I've said it before and I'll say it again. You bought the car for the drive. Forget the details, if your modifications improve the drive by your own standards (track, street, whatever you care about) then who the heck cares!!!

It's not the tangible car that makes a 944 a Porsche. The chassis wasn't designed by Porsche and the engine ...well that kind of was. It's the speed, handling, and unusual blend of refinement and restrained brutality. That's why I bought mine. Anything that can be done to enhance those traits is fine in my book.

And I have no problem with this discussion taking place on the turbo forum. The original poster was asking advice on a course of action for his 944 turbo. I think the input of people who have dealt with the stock engine is crucial to making an informed decision.

333pg333

...but this is what the 'debate' has become. A worked i4 or a V8 n/a.
Also, I think tone could switch his point from 'all 944' to 'all Porsche'. Let's allow that.
This thread has wound it's course.

951reasons

WOW!.....I see the more things change, the more they remain the same here on Rennlist....(did I spell that right?)

marky522

Hey CPR I look forward too meeting you when you drop off your car.

rad_951

Is anyone on this list doing heavy track time with a 951? If so, what is your set-up? Vitesse, Lindsey, v8...? Have you had more than one iteration of your car, such as stock to Vitesse, Vitesse to v8,...?

A lot of people are talking about performance and reliability, but are their comments really useful if their car is a dyno queen or street car? Do the reliability issues of the stock motor (or the chevy v8) show up on the street? I am asking these questions to try and measure the value of some peoples responses.

I have considered the v8 conversion, but decided to make an honest effort with the 2.5L first. I am sure many other people are in the same boat.

Thanks.

Tony
1986 951 Vitesse Stage II, Big Reds

Whisper

Yeah, that was the moment I knew he was going to win. Because when you have the charisma to laugh an attack off and make others laugh and ignore it, too, then character assassination just isn't going to work.

There's a valuable lesson in that, and that lesson is: "Never wrestle with a pig in the mud. Even if you win, you'll both end up so dirty that people won't be able to tell the difference between you and the pig."

It's something I take to heart. So people can jump up and down and foam at the mouth, tell me my chosen course of action is too cheap, too expensive, unreliable, a cop-out because it's too reliable, not very powerful, so powerful it will tear the car apart, scatologically disrespectful to their beloved engine, or, despite the thread title, off-topic.

That's fine. I don't need anyone's approval, permission, or even understanding to do what I want with my stuff and my life. So while it's sometimes good fun watching zealots get worked into a lather, it helps to remember that it ever ceases to be fun, there's no obligation to continue the show.

fastmover

I wish I could put that pos engine in my car!!


Semper fi

fastmover

Dude re read my post, I stated I would find a million and one thing wrong with your car, not engine, I never bashed your engine, I am sure it is something I would be proud to put under my hood. You questioned my knowledge, you blew up about my opinion on this thread, as far as I see it you brought this on yourself. I dont have issues, I know where I stand and I would never give someone ****e about what they want to build, maybe tease from time to time. But man you have a chip on your shoulder about the ls. And still if the ls is a bastard then any of the 3.0 upgrades should be too, regardless if its from the same parts bin, none of it belongs in a 951 either.
Now before you get all twisted, I said nothing bad about your builder in this post at all, and I would love to do a 3.0 in my 951s, and the ls in my 88 turbo, because I like anything mechanical ls, 3.0, 2.5 whatever build it, its all good
and if anyone needs help, I'll help[.

Patrick, I look forward to hearing from you, I should be clear by then, once I finish this "overpriced beetle: engine.
John, looking forward to seeing the car and you again, No worries brian and I had already done that simulation

Semper fi

JohnKoaWood

Don't you mean it NEVER ceases to be fun?

tone3721

Worked into a lather? Pfffft Your a sensitive one.


A chip on my shoulder about the LS? You came into the conversation later, Im not the one in a 951 forum, talking a bunch of **** about how much they suck, and how the v8 is oh so almighty. Of course I interject, and call out the facts, and Im the bad guy. Geee, imagine the other side of that coin on the hybrid forums. There is a place for that rhetoric, and its shoved down our throats here more than necessary. Funny thing is the people who do that arent even in the conversation any more. Yet, somehow you are now. But, I brought it upon myself? LOL Hey man, a spade is a spade, a bastard is a bastard, a mutt is a mutt, a strike a strike. It is what it is. Dont hate the ump. I guess its different when V8's pick on the 2.5's huh? They cant really say much. TO EACH THERE OWN!!

fastmover

Now we are getting on the same page, yes I came into this thread late, but I followed it from the start, It just took 10 pages for me to loose my patience with your posts about the cheap ls, and the might 3.0. For the record I am not championing the ls as the better way to go, I did state that the 2.5 is less then equal, givin the fact I have been into both engines. Also I cant stand when some one dumps all over someones else's ideas of what they want to do, hence why I got into it with you. When Porsche comes up with a small block v8, with more then 4.5 to 5.0 liters of displacement, and its not the size of a big block hemi, that will be the engine I champion for, untill then the ls will have to do.
I would love to get more info on your 3.0 build, pic's etc. Are you staying true to the 968 ts setup?
Lets relax and move on, and give this thread back to the op.

Semper fi

tone3721

968 crankshaft part # 944 102 015 15 Coincidentally all 968 pistons(mahle) were designated as "944" per Porsche. Yes it is a bastard engine(conceived out of wedlock), it was not configured like this in a production 944, not with a turbo, and 8v. It is however "purebred" Porsche. Not even Porsche made 944 engines all 944 parts. It was also pulled together from the current parts bin of the time. For example all crank bearings are 928. Hmmmm. A mutt is a mutt, it is what it is. Putting it nicely would be calling it a hybrid.

Yes, I am also a dog fancier, and breed dogs.

tone3721

Understood, sir. It took me 8. It just seems like the 2.5 guys get picked on alot by the v8's.
I really dont care what people do to their own car. Good luck whatever they do. IMO tho, at least frankenstein an 86' there is more of them. Just my $.02 brother. I mean it all in good fun, and sportsmanship, even with a lil trash talk. I dont doubt you know what yer talkin about bro.

As far as the build, yes, its basically 968ts replica minus external bolts ons, and management, simply because times have changed, and the contemporary options make more sense. I already had those parts too. Most of the parts are actually 944 s/s2, and 951 tho. Couple 68 parts. Still designated "944" by Porsche tho. The 968ts itself was a hodge podge of porsche parts bin, and essentially all "944" parts. There are a few small exceptions tho. Same with stock 944 engines, if im not mistaken.

We are getting very off topic now. I do have more pics. Almost done with the break in, 100 miles left. Then up the boost!!! Cant wait to see the power curve.

TonyG

It's amazing how much BS is going in this thread.

The bottom line is that the 944 turbo engine has a very bad reputation for reliability. This is fact. All one would have to do is search for "blown head gasket", "milk shake", "oil smell", "oil leak", "scored cylinder walls", "timing belt broke bent valves", "power steering leak", etc... on this very forum. Just look at the huge number of results that turn up.

This very forum and the posts by these very people here will tell the story with respect to the 951 engine reliability. In fact... these engines had problems when the cars were new. I knew several people that had these cars new, and they were always in the shop for leaks, head gaskets, etc. At least they were under warranty then.

I've been on this forum a long time, and it's like a broken record listening to person after person go through the same sets of problems (and I'm not talking about trivial problems either). It never ends.

It's these continual reliability problems that cause people get fed up at throwing good money after bad, and sell off the car and move to something else.

Personally, I've had stock 951's, mild bolt-on 951's, and heavily modified high HP 951's with some of the best parts money can buy, built by the very best engine builders. I've been around the block.

It was the poor reliability of the 951 engine that caused me to be done with these cars for a long time.

So I'm in a unique position to offer an opinion. I've been fully around the block with 951 engines, and I'm currently running the LS1 V8. I don't think I can count the people here on this forum that have that kind of experience using the fingers on my left hand.

Now don't misunderstand me..... I like the power of the turbo 4. It's a fun engine. But apples-to-apples, it will never hold a candle, reliability wise, to a LS1 engine.

Furthermore, I've also have extensive track experience with both engines in like prepared 951's. The LS1 V8 car, making the similar HP to a like-prepared turbo 4 car is clearly faster around the track, as well as being much easier to drive fast around a track. And it's my opinion that it's more fun doing so with the LS1 engine, that part is just opinion.


In closing.... nobody should comment on the LS1 in a 951 issue until they actually drive one. Without driving one of these cars, it's impossible to understand how great this engine is in a 951.

You just don't know, what you don't know...

PS> I thought the whole LS1 in a 951 was a bad idea at first. I was totally against it. But after I drove one, I knew I had to have one.


TonyG

tone3721

Im sure its great Tony. Ive admitted it is more reliable. I agree. I think your are not comparing apples to apples tho. You seem to be describing most of your opinion on reliability based on 2.5 with lots of boost. As ive said high boost= problems. Just as you say one shouldnt speak of what they havent driven. Have you driven a 3.0? A 3.0 doesnt need the same boost levels, therefore, theoretically more longevity. Yes GM SB's are the marquee for relibility. I just tend to think your a bit slanted in terms of maxed out i4's. Unless of course youve gone the 3.0 route already. If not, I will be making my way through your area with the 951 eventually. If youd like, we could arrange a day to swap for a day at the track. Id be interested on your thoughts, and what the rave is all about with your v8.