Electromotive EMS
12-03-2007, 05:43 PM
#91
You are not looking at it correctly. Its about energy management in the ignition system. Sure, the coil is the same as a GM coil – but that’s like judging an fuel management system on the injector alone.
The Tec systems have a proprietary ignition system that ensures the exact amount of dwell and charge voltage to the coil. This creates a spark that is both powerful as possible and long in duration. The key being long in duration – many CDI systems deliver a very powerful but extremely short spark (very much like a static electric spark – those can be well into the tens of thousands of volts). Great for advertizing ignition spark potential but not quite a good in the real world where a longer spark works in conjunction with turbulent combustion chamber conditions. To use the jargon – it is a thin spark vs a fat spark.
For those that need a visual indication of the ignition system power – if you pull the wires off the two connectors on the tec coil pack the spark will jump that space (even at cranking speeds) – that’s almost 2 inches…..and it a bright spark too! (hows that for unscientific!!). I have run Tecs on many different set ups and I have never had ignition problems, in fact they continue firing in the worst scenarios (real bad A/F ratios, missing plug electrodes, crappy plug wires…).
As usual the debate on these things ends up with trying to quantify things in measurable numbers. If you want to do that then pick some really important numbers to compare things. Like ignition timing accuracy – that’s important. As long as you have enough spark to always fire the combustion process evenly then more spark power does not necessarily mean better performance.
One other issue to consider – some EMS are better at street driven engines. I have all the respect in the world for Motec for track use but they don’t cater to the street driven engines. To get a factory like tune you need lots of modifiers for cold start, odd running conditions and other features not found on race set ups.
Finally – As I seen to add to any conversation on EMS – the support you get is more important than the box you buy. Find a vendor that will work with you to get it running right. Buying any system with the intent of figuring it out yourself is just asking for a lot more work than you really want.
The Tec systems have a proprietary ignition system that ensures the exact amount of dwell and charge voltage to the coil. This creates a spark that is both powerful as possible and long in duration. The key being long in duration – many CDI systems deliver a very powerful but extremely short spark (very much like a static electric spark – those can be well into the tens of thousands of volts). Great for advertizing ignition spark potential but not quite a good in the real world where a longer spark works in conjunction with turbulent combustion chamber conditions. To use the jargon – it is a thin spark vs a fat spark.
For those that need a visual indication of the ignition system power – if you pull the wires off the two connectors on the tec coil pack the spark will jump that space (even at cranking speeds) – that’s almost 2 inches…..and it a bright spark too! (hows that for unscientific!!). I have run Tecs on many different set ups and I have never had ignition problems, in fact they continue firing in the worst scenarios (real bad A/F ratios, missing plug electrodes, crappy plug wires…).
As usual the debate on these things ends up with trying to quantify things in measurable numbers. If you want to do that then pick some really important numbers to compare things. Like ignition timing accuracy – that’s important. As long as you have enough spark to always fire the combustion process evenly then more spark power does not necessarily mean better performance.
One other issue to consider – some EMS are better at street driven engines. I have all the respect in the world for Motec for track use but they don’t cater to the street driven engines. To get a factory like tune you need lots of modifiers for cold start, odd running conditions and other features not found on race set ups.
Finally – As I seen to add to any conversation on EMS – the support you get is more important than the box you buy. Find a vendor that will work with you to get it running right. Buying any system with the intent of figuring it out yourself is just asking for a lot more work than you really want.
Electromotive uses a 60 tooth wheel. From my understanding they divide that into 10 parts and count every 6 teeth including the 2 missing for the sync. There are many other systems that count more teeth for accuracy. Some even use a Hall sensor on the crank to ensure stable voltage on the output. For years the Electromotive used those horrible sensors from the Food Industry. Have they changed them? I certainly hope so.
As for the spark and length etc, you are corect about an Inductive spark appearance verse a CDI spark. The issue I have is the use of Inductive in the 944 world where the combustion chamber and Piston dish make the use of such Ignition type critical. The CDI has always outperfromed Inductive in both the 944TT and 930 engines. Hands down the starting is better, the throttle response is better and the overall power is up due to a more complete combustion.
Not many people understand Ignition very well. I am one of them, but I have discussed this with those that do and the majority believe that CDI outperforms Inductive in these engines. Dyno tests and road testing has shown hands down a huge difference in the 2 systems.
I for one like the starting quality of CDI over Inductive. No more fouled plugs to worry about. Especially on cold mornings.
I have seen the mapping change from one system over the other as well. I suspect it is from the spark differences. Looking at a long lazy spark means nothing. It is about the energy level. It is heat that generates combustion not the spark. If the energy released within the mixture is hotter and stronger it will get to the end gas quicker with less loss of heat providing a more complete combustion.
Smaller Combustion chambers allow Indcutive to work better, closer to the level of CDI. The issue comes down to cost, electrical interference levels been lower than CDI, but they suffer from energy loss at the higher engine speeds.
The following is from the manual of a well known Ignition componet supplier.
In a standard Inductive Ignition system all the spark energy is stored with the magnetic field of the Coil and is defined by the equation:
W = 1/2 L I x I
W = Energy (Joules)
L = Primary Inductance (Henries)
I = Primary Current ( Amps)
A typical modern Coil for use with electronic Ignition systems has a primary resistance of 0.5 Ohms and a primary inductance of 3 mH. If this coil is driven to a primary current of 6A it will give a maximum spark energy of 63mJ and require a minimum of 3 msecs to recharge (dwell) between events. The energy figure is raised by either increasing the primary current or primary inductance. However this also increases the dwell time and there by reduces the engine speed at which the spark energy begins to fall.
In a V8 application the maximum spark energy would be available up to 5000 RPM, where after it would start to decrease. A 4 Cyl fairs better.
In an CDI Ignition system 12V from the battery is stepped up by inverting the power supply to approx., 450V which is then stored with the capacitor.
W = 1/2 C V x V
W = Energy ( Joules)
C = Capacitance ( Farads)
V = voltage
If a 0.5uF capacitor is charged to 450V the maximum energy would be 100mJ. Due to the high efficiency of the inverter supply it is capable of recharging the capacitor in approx., 1 msec giving a maximum ignition frequency of 1,000Hz or 15,000 RPM on a V8 before any loss in spark energy.
Another advantage is the comparatively high rate at which the secondary voltage from the Ignition Coil rises which gives the CDI system its great ability to fire a spark under conditions where an Inductive system of equal energy would fail.
The above is copied direct from their manual. I am not so smart.
Given we run in cold climates, use crappy fuel and run under boosted conditions, the choice if Ignition system is important. If an Induxctive system is used, Coil choice is very important as can be seen by one of the above equations. I am told one of the Crane coil is one of the best units to use, but this requires a system that can use individual coils unlike the Electromotive system where you are tied to using thise GM Coils. This is why other EFI system become more attractive in my opinion.
12-03-2007, 09:16 PM
#92
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It amazes me that the original question of....
"For those that use it, what are your opinions of it?"
Has turned into such a debate. Little of which seems to come from those that actually use it.
Like I have said, there are other options, but having TONS and TONS of experience with not just Electromotive, but also several other systems, I will state with absolute conviction that the Electromotive system, dollar for dollar, represents a fantastic value for the money. It is a complete system with a VERY adequate ignition system. In the real world, I have not had any issues making power from the TEC system versus any other EMS or ignition system. While there are some little tuning nuances that may differ between ignition types, it has not been an issue for me wring power out of the Electromotive coil packs.
Truth is, some differences can be measured with instruments, and in theory these differences are notable, but in practice such differences equate to little, if any affect on performance. Again, I have tuned many systems, and still stand by Electromotive as the best bang for the buck.
So, to answer the original question... My opinion of the Electromotive system is quite high, and I strongly recommend anyone considering an EMS to seriously consider it a viable option.
Hope that helps.
"For those that use it, what are your opinions of it?"
Has turned into such a debate. Little of which seems to come from those that actually use it.
Like I have said, there are other options, but having TONS and TONS of experience with not just Electromotive, but also several other systems, I will state with absolute conviction that the Electromotive system, dollar for dollar, represents a fantastic value for the money. It is a complete system with a VERY adequate ignition system. In the real world, I have not had any issues making power from the TEC system versus any other EMS or ignition system. While there are some little tuning nuances that may differ between ignition types, it has not been an issue for me wring power out of the Electromotive coil packs.
Truth is, some differences can be measured with instruments, and in theory these differences are notable, but in practice such differences equate to little, if any affect on performance. Again, I have tuned many systems, and still stand by Electromotive as the best bang for the buck.
So, to answer the original question... My opinion of the Electromotive system is quite high, and I strongly recommend anyone considering an EMS to seriously consider it a viable option.
Hope that helps.
12-03-2007, 10:18 PM
#94
Formula One Spin Doctor
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I am not knocking the Electromotive system here. But I do take issue with their claims for Ignition energy as well as your claim about accuracy. I also do not want to start a huge debate regarding Inductive verses CDI Ignition. God knows that been beaten to death.
Electromotive uses a 60 tooth wheel. From my understanding they divide that into 10 parts and count every 6 teeth including the 2 missing for the sync. There are many other systems that count more teeth for accuracy. Some even use a Hall sensor on the crank to ensure stable voltage on the output. For years the Electromotive used those horrible sensors from the Food Industry. Have they changed them? I certainly hope so.
As for the spark and length etc, you are corect about an Inductive spark appearance verse a CDI spark. The issue I have is the use of Inductive in the 944 world where the combustion chamber and Piston dish make the use of such Ignition type critical. The CDI has always outperfromed Inductive in both the 944TT and 930 engines. Hands down the starting is better, the throttle response is better and the overall power is up due to a more complete combustion.
Not many people understand Ignition very well. I am one of them, but I have discussed this with those that do and the majority believe that CDI outperforms Inductive in these engines. Dyno tests and road testing has shown hands down a huge difference in the 2 systems.
I for one like the starting quality of CDI over Inductive. No more fouled plugs to worry about. Especially on cold mornings.
I have seen the mapping change from one system over the other as well. I suspect it is from the spark differences. Looking at a long lazy spark means nothing. It is about the energy level. It is heat that generates combustion not the spark. If the energy released within the mixture is hotter and stronger it will get to the end gas quicker with less loss of heat providing a more complete combustion.
Smaller Combustion chambers allow Indcutive to work better, closer to the level of CDI. The issue comes down to cost, electrical interference levels been lower than CDI, but they suffer from energy loss at the higher engine speeds.
The following is from the manual of a well known Ignition componet supplier.
In a standard Inductive Ignition system all the spark energy is stored with the magnetic field of the Coil and is defined by the equation:
W = 1/2 L I x I
W = Energy (Joules)
L = Primary Inductance (Henries)
I = Primary Current ( Amps)
A typical modern Coil for use with electronic Ignition systems has a primary resistance of 0.5 Ohms and a primary inductance of 3 mH. If this coil is driven to a primary current of 6A it will give a maximum spark energy of 63mJ and require a minimum of 3 msecs to recharge (dwell) between events. The energy figure is raised by either increasing the primary current or primary inductance. However this also increases the dwell time and there by reduces the engine speed at which the spark energy begins to fall.
In a V8 application the maximum spark energy would be available up to 5000 RPM, where after it would start to decrease. A 4 Cyl fairs better.
In an CDI Ignition system 12V from the battery is stepped up by inverting the power supply to approx., 450V which is then stored with the capacitor.
W = 1/2 C V x V
W = Energy ( Joules)
C = Capacitance ( Farads)
V = voltage
If a 0.5uF capacitor is charged to 450V the maximum energy would be 100mJ. Due to the high efficiency of the inverter supply it is capable of recharging the capacitor in approx., 1 msec giving a maximum ignition frequency of 1,000Hz or 15,000 RPM on a V8 before any loss in spark energy.
Another advantage is the comparatively high rate at which the secondary voltage from the Ignition Coil rises which gives the CDI system its great ability to fire a spark under conditions where an Inductive system of equal energy would fail.
The above is copied direct from their manual. I am not so smart.
Given we run in cold climates, use crappy fuel and run under boosted conditions, the choice if Ignition system is important. If an Induxctive system is used, Coil choice is very important as can be seen by one of the above equations. I am told one of the Crane coil is one of the best units to use, but this requires a system that can use individual coils unlike the Electromotive system where you are tied to using thise GM Coils. This is why other EFI system become more attractive in my opinion.
Electromotive uses a 60 tooth wheel. From my understanding they divide that into 10 parts and count every 6 teeth including the 2 missing for the sync. There are many other systems that count more teeth for accuracy. Some even use a Hall sensor on the crank to ensure stable voltage on the output. For years the Electromotive used those horrible sensors from the Food Industry. Have they changed them? I certainly hope so.
As for the spark and length etc, you are corect about an Inductive spark appearance verse a CDI spark. The issue I have is the use of Inductive in the 944 world where the combustion chamber and Piston dish make the use of such Ignition type critical. The CDI has always outperfromed Inductive in both the 944TT and 930 engines. Hands down the starting is better, the throttle response is better and the overall power is up due to a more complete combustion.
Not many people understand Ignition very well. I am one of them, but I have discussed this with those that do and the majority believe that CDI outperforms Inductive in these engines. Dyno tests and road testing has shown hands down a huge difference in the 2 systems.
I for one like the starting quality of CDI over Inductive. No more fouled plugs to worry about. Especially on cold mornings.
I have seen the mapping change from one system over the other as well. I suspect it is from the spark differences. Looking at a long lazy spark means nothing. It is about the energy level. It is heat that generates combustion not the spark. If the energy released within the mixture is hotter and stronger it will get to the end gas quicker with less loss of heat providing a more complete combustion.
Smaller Combustion chambers allow Indcutive to work better, closer to the level of CDI. The issue comes down to cost, electrical interference levels been lower than CDI, but they suffer from energy loss at the higher engine speeds.
The following is from the manual of a well known Ignition componet supplier.
In a standard Inductive Ignition system all the spark energy is stored with the magnetic field of the Coil and is defined by the equation:
W = 1/2 L I x I
W = Energy (Joules)
L = Primary Inductance (Henries)
I = Primary Current ( Amps)
A typical modern Coil for use with electronic Ignition systems has a primary resistance of 0.5 Ohms and a primary inductance of 3 mH. If this coil is driven to a primary current of 6A it will give a maximum spark energy of 63mJ and require a minimum of 3 msecs to recharge (dwell) between events. The energy figure is raised by either increasing the primary current or primary inductance. However this also increases the dwell time and there by reduces the engine speed at which the spark energy begins to fall.
In a V8 application the maximum spark energy would be available up to 5000 RPM, where after it would start to decrease. A 4 Cyl fairs better.
In an CDI Ignition system 12V from the battery is stepped up by inverting the power supply to approx., 450V which is then stored with the capacitor.
W = 1/2 C V x V
W = Energy ( Joules)
C = Capacitance ( Farads)
V = voltage
If a 0.5uF capacitor is charged to 450V the maximum energy would be 100mJ. Due to the high efficiency of the inverter supply it is capable of recharging the capacitor in approx., 1 msec giving a maximum ignition frequency of 1,000Hz or 15,000 RPM on a V8 before any loss in spark energy.
Another advantage is the comparatively high rate at which the secondary voltage from the Ignition Coil rises which gives the CDI system its great ability to fire a spark under conditions where an Inductive system of equal energy would fail.
The above is copied direct from their manual. I am not so smart.
Given we run in cold climates, use crappy fuel and run under boosted conditions, the choice if Ignition system is important. If an Induxctive system is used, Coil choice is very important as can be seen by one of the above equations. I am told one of the Crane coil is one of the best units to use, but this requires a system that can use individual coils unlike the Electromotive system where you are tied to using thise GM Coils. This is why other EFI system become more attractive in my opinion.
You will have to have a very crappy ign system for that to happen. Also in regards to supercharged engines spark consistency is more important than spark size, at high boost pressures you have enough heat for ignition, spark accuracy and consistency is what is important . CDI's are more effective at idle and low engine speeds, I will agree with this , but after 5500 there is no advantage with it and most use this extra energy to clean up a poorly adjusted engine.
Can you benefit from an CDI ignition , yes do you need one , depends on your application.
12-03-2007, 10:39 PM
#95
I have no issue with anyone using Electromotive or who wants to. I have no issue with thise that sell it either. I can state that I have used both types of Ignition and the CDI made a huge difference. I will add that the engines were mapped well with the Inductive system and had good coils and igniters. The extar energy was the difference as the cahnges were made using the same ECU.
I disagree with your statement about heat in a boosted engine. Are you saying that the heat generated by compression is hot enough to make up for the difference in Ignition types? Clear this up so I may understand your point. I am having trouble understanding what you mean. As for accurracy, it all starts at the Trigger wheel. The Trigger wheels I have seen leave alot to be desired. the teeth are inconsistant and the spacing is not the best. Then you have sensor types then the ECU control. I agree consistancy is critical. No argument from me there. The issue with Inductive is that the dwell control must be spot on and so far I have seen of instances where this is not the case. The Coils are not consistant either.
To each his own I say. I just have found that CDI has worked better for me in both the 944 and 930 engines.
I disagree with your statement about heat in a boosted engine. Are you saying that the heat generated by compression is hot enough to make up for the difference in Ignition types? Clear this up so I may understand your point. I am having trouble understanding what you mean. As for accurracy, it all starts at the Trigger wheel. The Trigger wheels I have seen leave alot to be desired. the teeth are inconsistant and the spacing is not the best. Then you have sensor types then the ECU control. I agree consistancy is critical. No argument from me there. The issue with Inductive is that the dwell control must be spot on and so far I have seen of instances where this is not the case. The Coils are not consistant either.
To each his own I say. I just have found that CDI has worked better for me in both the 944 and 930 engines.
12-03-2007, 11:30 PM
#96
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So let me see if I understand – you are comparing ALL inductive ignition systems against CDI systems? Have you personally made the comparison of an Electromotive ignition system against the CDI system? If that’s not the case then I am not sure how your comparison is relevant to this thread. ( as well as being a sweeping generalization)
I can assure you that the cranking / low rpm and the high rpm performance of the electromotive ignition system is more the adequate to work with the 944 turbo engine – in many different flavors!
I will agree with the fact that the factory system is somewhat lacking in its ability to work under added stress – but the Electromotive ignition system is a little different than factory.
I can assure you that the cranking / low rpm and the high rpm performance of the electromotive ignition system is more the adequate to work with the 944 turbo engine – in many different flavors!
I will agree with the fact that the factory system is somewhat lacking in its ability to work under added stress – but the Electromotive ignition system is a little different than factory.
12-03-2007, 11:39 PM
#97
Drifting
Hence my original and first post to this thread:
Originally Posted by Chris Prack
Here we go...
12-04-2007, 12:21 AM
#98
Formula One Spin Doctor
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I have no issue with anyone using Electromotive or who wants to. I have no issue with thise that sell it either. I can state that I have used both types of Ignition and the CDI made a huge difference. I will add that the engines were mapped well with the Inductive system and had good coils and igniters. The extar energy was the difference as the cahnges were made using the same ECU.
I disagree with your statement about heat in a boosted engine. Are you saying that the heat generated by compression is hot enough to make up for the difference in Ignition types? Clear this up so I may understand your point. I am having trouble understanding what you mean. As for accurracy, it all starts at the Trigger wheel. The Trigger wheels I have seen leave alot to be desired. the teeth are inconsistant and the spacing is not the best. Then you have sensor types then the ECU control. I agree consistancy is critical. No argument from me there. The issue with Inductive is that the dwell control must be spot on and so far I have seen of instances where this is not the case. The Coils are not consistant either.
To each his own I say. I just have found that CDI has worked better for me in both the 944 and 930 engines.
I disagree with your statement about heat in a boosted engine. Are you saying that the heat generated by compression is hot enough to make up for the difference in Ignition types? Clear this up so I may understand your point. I am having trouble understanding what you mean. As for accurracy, it all starts at the Trigger wheel. The Trigger wheels I have seen leave alot to be desired. the teeth are inconsistant and the spacing is not the best. Then you have sensor types then the ECU control. I agree consistancy is critical. No argument from me there. The issue with Inductive is that the dwell control must be spot on and so far I have seen of instances where this is not the case. The Coils are not consistant either.
To each his own I say. I just have found that CDI has worked better for me in both the 944 and 930 engines.
Sometime ago we where doing development work for a offshore race engine builder, doing fuel injection developement , one of the major Sponsors was a manufacture of CDI systems, we did many back to back comparsions and there was not 1 bhp made over the standard ecu setup with wastespark. Turbo engines don't need a big spark , they need consistency and accuracy, when running gas. Yes the heat generated from the high boost pressure help in the ignition of the fuel.
CDI works better for you , because your setup is possibly not optimal , sometimes big cams with massive overlaps make this essential , to reduce plug fouling with cold spark plugs ,which then becomes a necessity , because of the very hot ignition produced by the cdi setup. Some builders favor this setup , as it works for their combination Also on Distributor cars they do beneifit at low rpms from a cdi , if the same conditions occur.as described above. one hand feeds the other.
Setup correctly it will not be an issue, never had the need for one while running gasoline..
Last edited by A.Wayne; 12-04-2007 at 12:54 AM.
12-04-2007, 12:50 AM
#99
Nordschleife Master
ACCURACY IS A DIFFERENT TOPIC , less get pass the ign phase first , what i have said still stands , you will not see any difference in power on a dyno unless you have a really weak ign system , the power outputs will be the same , once the ign RLC circuit is optimized. Are you saying you see a power difference after putting on a cdi system, i have never seen that .
Sometime ago we where doing development work for a offshore race engine builder, doing fuel injection developement , one of the major Sponsors was a manufacture of CDI systems, we did many back to back comparsions and there was not 1 bhp made over the standard ecu setup with wastespark. Turbo engines don't need a big spark , they need consistency and accuracy, when running gas. Yes the heat generated from the high boost pressure help in the ignition of the fuel.
CDI works better for you , because your setup is not optimal , so you need excessive dwell at low rpm to burn off the fuel , sometimes with big cams with massive overlaps this is essential , to reduce plug fouling with cold spark plugs ,which then becomes a necessity , because of the very hot ignition produces by the cdi setup. Also on Distributor cars they do beneifit at low rpms from a cdi , if the same conditions occur.as described above. one hand feeds the other.
Setup correctly it will not be an issue, never had the need for one while running gasoline..
Sometime ago we where doing development work for a offshore race engine builder, doing fuel injection developement , one of the major Sponsors was a manufacture of CDI systems, we did many back to back comparsions and there was not 1 bhp made over the standard ecu setup with wastespark. Turbo engines don't need a big spark , they need consistency and accuracy, when running gas. Yes the heat generated from the high boost pressure help in the ignition of the fuel.
CDI works better for you , because your setup is not optimal , so you need excessive dwell at low rpm to burn off the fuel , sometimes with big cams with massive overlaps this is essential , to reduce plug fouling with cold spark plugs ,which then becomes a necessity , because of the very hot ignition produces by the cdi setup. Also on Distributor cars they do beneifit at low rpms from a cdi , if the same conditions occur.as described above. one hand feeds the other.
Setup correctly it will not be an issue, never had the need for one while running gasoline..
12-04-2007, 01:00 AM
#100
Formula One Spin Doctor
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We have run nitrous on cars with standard factory COP and or wastespark,
only had to close the gap, 50 psi and nitrous .... on stock ignition ....
Last edited by A.Wayne; 12-04-2007 at 11:02 AM.
12-04-2007, 02:01 AM
#102
Nordschleife Master
Close the Spark plug gap, turbo cars don't lose any power from doing this, by upping the ign you have made your setup more prone to pre -ignition... .
We have run nitrous on cars with standard factory COP and or wastespark,
only had to close the gap, 50 psi and nitrous .... on stock ignition ....
We have run nitrous on cars with standard factory COP and or wastespark,
only had to close the gap, 50 psi and nitrous .... on stock ignition ....
My 944 wouldn't light at .024 gap and stock ignition then I swapped coil to get nothing in gain. I went to a MSD 6a and got it to fire fine at .28 untill I stepped it up again and eventually was back to having issues at .024.
Also, how have I increased my chance for pre - Ignition? I need to hear this cause I got no idea.
12-04-2007, 02:15 AM
#103
Formula One Spin Doctor
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We got blowout at .020 gap... and on a Rx7 thats not really an option on 9's maybe 11's but that would mean figuring out a way to gap the plug.
My 944 wouldn't light at .024 gap and stock ignition then I swapped coil to get nothing in gain. I went to a MSD 6a and got it to fire fine at .28 untill I stepped it up again and eventually was back to having issues at .024.
Also, how have I increased my chance for pre - Ignition? I need to hear this cause I got no idea.
My 944 wouldn't light at .024 gap and stock ignition then I swapped coil to get nothing in gain. I went to a MSD 6a and got it to fire fine at .28 untill I stepped it up again and eventually was back to having issues at .024.
Also, how have I increased my chance for pre - Ignition? I need to hear this cause I got no idea.
Last edited by A.Wayne; 12-04-2007 at 11:01 AM.
12-04-2007, 04:16 AM
#104
Few 951's uses Tatech system http://www.tatech.fi/ This Finnish system is used by few 951's in Finland and Estonia,
for example these cars use it:
Markus' 951
Arto's 951
There should be soon a plg'n'play version available for 951's
One Finnish company has developed a system for 951's based on the Dutch KMS system. This Finnish company will soon releasing a new version where all original 951 sensors can be used with KMS, so it will also be more or less plug'n'play system.
Here's pictures of their old setup
They dynoend 400 hp from hyprid Holset turbo equipped otherwise completely stock 2,5L engine
That system develops 1,5 bar with 4000 rpm, which is quite good, 0,5 bar at 3200rpm and 1,0bar at 3600 rpm
MAX torque 540NM/4900 rpm and 400Nm/ 3700 rpm. This was a prtotype installation.Since then they have measured beter results from another 951.
Here's downpipe under manufacturing.
for example these cars use it:
Markus' 951
Arto's 951
There should be soon a plg'n'play version available for 951's
One Finnish company has developed a system for 951's based on the Dutch KMS system. This Finnish company will soon releasing a new version where all original 951 sensors can be used with KMS, so it will also be more or less plug'n'play system.
Here's pictures of their old setup
They dynoend 400 hp from hyprid Holset turbo equipped otherwise completely stock 2,5L engine
That system develops 1,5 bar with 4000 rpm, which is quite good, 0,5 bar at 3200rpm and 1,0bar at 3600 rpm
MAX torque 540NM/4900 rpm and 400Nm/ 3700 rpm. This was a prtotype installation.Since then they have measured beter results from another 951.
Here's downpipe under manufacturing.
Last edited by Olli Snellman; 12-04-2007 at 05:30 AM.
12-04-2007, 10:17 AM
#105
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First the ‘low ball’ way –the ECU is about $2k.
Second – the ‘complete’ way – I have a ‘kit’ that includes the ECU, coil packs, sensors, adapters, brackets, custom ‘plug & play’ harness and start up files for $3700 (includes whatever you need for customer support)