Under Pressure Performance

As many of you longtime Rennlisters already know, I have been selling, installing, and tuning Electromotive since the late 80's - So hopefully what I have to offer comes with some merit...

Over the years, I have sold, installed, or tuned many other systems (Motec, Haltec, Accel, SDS, Wolf, plus a few others not worth mentioning) In my years of experience installing/tuning various systems, I will stand by the Electromotive systems as representing the best overall bang for the buck. There are definitely other systems that are worth buying as well, but when it comes to overall value, features, and control, it is hard to beat Electromotive. For starters, it is not just a control system (engine management), but also a complete and powerful ignition system.

You will get many opinions regarding which system is the best, which is simplest to use, and which has more features, but after doing all your homework I am sure you will find that it is hard to beat Electromotive in regard to value. It is a solid reliable system that works VERY well. It is my honest assessment that it rivals any system on performance, features, and ease of use. Is Electromotive the end all be all of engine management? Well, no, BUT it can do 100% of what that vast majority of people running EMS need it to do, and it does it well.

So, to answer the original question of this thread; The Electromotive TEC systems are solid accurate performers. They represent many years of development and are proven performers. We endorse them fully. Surely the others that sell, install, and tune Electromotive on this site would agree.

It would be one thing if it were the only system I had experience with, but as I have said, I have tuned/installed many others systems and stand behind my claim that Electromotive represents an incredible value in engine management.

If you have any other questions (technical, sales, installation) regarding Electromotive systems, feel free to ask, out of the three of us (Tim, Chris, or myself) will be more than happy to assist you in any way. If you would like to know why I use Electromotive TEC systems in virtually all my projects requiring EMS, feel free to call and I will run it down for you. (508) 989-3970

Thanks for reading.

333pg333

I believe that those that use &/or sell the various systems are giving honest appraisals for their brands and Scott brings up a good point that there are probably many features that most of us won't use. (Just like your TV remote controls.) How does the average customer make the call as to what brand is best for them? Probably down to their builder/vendor and what they're most happy with? I assume that you can get on the web and find some independent reviews too. Unless you really are the type to constantly fiddle with your car, I'm sure many of us would prefer to have a system that is easily tuneable and doesn't require constant adjustment. You do hear stories of people having to almost move to the dyno so often are they there constantly tuning. Why, are EMS's so fiddly? Surely not in the hands of a good tuner. Also if you don't tune to the 10/10ths level and have some built in insurance that must allow for different fuel qualities and Oct, yes?

Under Pressure Performance

Very true!

As with many systems, if you are a knowledgeable tuner, you can use the Electromotive to get to 10/10ths, but more importantly is how simple and relatively intuitive it is to get to 8/10ths. Which is usually where you you get the most performance for the least amount of tuning.

First off, engine management as a whole is not for everyone. Let's face it, we all want more power, but not everyone is willing, or able, to install and tune a stand alone engine management system. This is why chips, mass flow systems, piggy back systems and other bolt on mods really make sense for so many. But for those that want full control, for those that want to have a more hands-on approach, then engine management is the way to go.

John at Vitesse has done a very good job of packaging several solutions for those looking for the added power without much, if any, headache. Others have chips, yet others have mass flow systems, or other signal interceptors/conditioners that allow some level of tuning falling short, or full blown stand alone.

For those that are constant tinkerers, and are not intimidated by the notion of installing and/or tuning engine management will likely find that, in the long run, they will spend less redundant money on tuning mods. Again, EMS is not for everyone, but you will find few regrets from those that have already chosen to move to the dark side.

If you find yourself fitting the character profile above, then whether you install and tune the system yourself, or you have one of us professionals here on Rennlist install and tune it for you, I am sure that you will become convinced that it is money well spent.

For those that simply want to buy a sorted package and just install it and go, then I would strongly suggest you look into John's stuff at Vitesse, or some of the Lindsey stuff. More likely than not, if you want instant gratification, and you do not consider yourself obsessive by nature, (a tinkerer/experimenter, or a person that changes parts relatively often (every couple of years) turbo, cam, head work, internals) - Then I would definitely shy away from EMS, it probably is not for you.

Just a general observation based on the nature of the people that choose to go one way or the other. Nothing scientific, of course, just my observations.

Hope this helps.

fortysixandtwo

Yes that would be the the crank pully!
I have the AC deleted so it runs just the alternator. Add to that, lack of sleep from trying to finish assmebling my car in time to move in a couple of weeks, it made sense in my head at the time.

m42racer

It already exists. I saw tests conducted at PD where they were testing their new Generation system that includes what they call Intelligent control. The system is connected to the engine dyno as well as the engine. The programming goes thro a series of programmed changes and the Fuel, Timing and other parameters are changed until the system sees the best A/F, Knock and Torque. I probably have missed something here, but the system is very intelligent. This is there Generation 4 system.

It should always be remembered that some systems change and get better. They were once simple and not the best in comparision. Now some of them are as good as those considered the best money can buy.

Question. Why does Electromotive continue to use those Delco style Coil packs, when there are far better Ignition quality and power to be had? I have listened to Electromotive continue to explain how their Ignition system is so powerful, and yet other systems outperform it in every way. They even sell a version of a theory that cannot be proven with calculation. Their system is Inductive and yet they sell Power levels far above what those Coils can possibly achieve or do in fact. Most CDI systems struggle to produce the power levels Electromotive state. This has always been a bone of contention with me. Tests have proven their sales pitch is just that.

If systems are sold as they are and not hyped up to levels that cannot be supplied I wouldn't have a probem.

I have had personal experience with Inductive Ignition verses CDI. The difference is huge. Inductive is cheaper but has to be set up just right with the correct dwell time etc, otherwise the system will not function correctly.

m42racer

Even with all this new fangled stuff, the best still check the engine with Borescopes, Spark Plug inspection and EGT's.

They use all the features of the O2 sensor, Knock detection etc, but still rely and check the basics everytime.

The dyno sessions I have attended where mapping was conducted used, O2 sensors on every primary Pipe, EGT sensors on every pipe, Knock sensors, Crankshaft rotational sensors, in cylinder head pressure sensors, amongst the many used. On Turbo engines Turbo speed sensors are used along with Inlet and outlet pressure sensors.

As I stated, even after all of these were used and the best Torque achieved, the engine was inspected internally with a Borescope and the Plugs checked.

Most of these cannnot be used when mapping is done a a Chassis dyno so a huge compromise is taken and the O2 sensor is a major input. Checking the Plugs and Borescoping the engine can be done in the car and should be, but most don't. Most don't even know what to look for.

DanG

Ion sensing?!? Cylinder pressure sensors?!? HCCI?!? Yes please.

Fishey

I agree with "complete" and easy to get and setup because the coil sets. However, I don't agree with powerful. Sure its better then stock and around the same as a stock LS1 coil. However, its not going to be breaking any records and we have run into issues with the coils on very high HP applications. That being said only about .1% will ever run into a situation that those coils will not cut it. Overall, I really like the tec3 but I can't justify the cost over Haltech. If someone already had a Tec 3 I wouldn't suggest changing it out thats for sure..

gt37vgt

I have programmable efi as as i like messing with stuff and I'm into stupid features like multi coils and anti-lag launch control . and to control extra stupid stuff like excessive water injection and VGT .electric reverse flow cooling
when you go for programmable you feel the need to do all that stupid stuff to make the conversion worth while . so like the efi isn't enough work.

Chris White

I just wish 'Smart fire' wasn't $10K!!!

Jason Judd

Autronic...

It's bigger, badder, and bolder than your Mommy ever was!

Jason

anders44

some saabs actually has plasma/ion stuff going iirc

Jason Judd

I have a Hatech from my car, and I'll sell it for $500. I switched to Autronic.

That's way less than $1,400...

Jason

Chris White

You are not looking at it correctly. Its about energy management in the ignition system. Sure, the coil is the same as a GM coil – but that’s like judging an fuel management system on the injector alone.
The Tec systems have a proprietary ignition system that ensures the exact amount of dwell and charge voltage to the coil. This creates a spark that is both powerful as possible and long in duration. The key being long in duration – many CDI systems deliver a very powerful but extremely short spark (very much like a static electric spark – those can be well into the tens of thousands of volts). Great for advertizing ignition spark potential but not quite a good in the real world where a longer spark works in conjunction with turbulent combustion chamber conditions. To use the jargon – it is a thin spark vs a fat spark.
For those that need a visual indication of the ignition system power – if you pull the wires off the two connectors on the tec coil pack the spark will jump that space (even at cranking speeds) – that’s almost 2 inches…..and it a bright spark too! (hows that for unscientific!!). I have run Tecs on many different set ups and I have never had ignition problems, in fact they continue firing in the worst scenarios (real bad A/F ratios, missing plug electrodes, crappy plug wires…).
As usual the debate on these things ends up with trying to quantify things in measurable numbers. If you want to do that then pick some really important numbers to compare things. Like ignition timing accuracy – that’s important. As long as you have enough spark to always fire the combustion process evenly then more spark power does not necessarily mean better performance.
One other issue to consider – some EMS are better at street driven engines. I have all the respect in the world for Motec for track use but they don’t cater to the street driven engines. To get a factory like tune you need lots of modifiers for cold start, odd running conditions and other features not found on race set ups.
Finally – As I seen to add to any conversation on EMS – the support you get is more important than the box you buy. Find a vendor that will work with you to get it running right. Buying any system with the intent of figuring it out yourself is just asking for a lot more work than you really want.

TurboTim

Fishey,

I have used Autronic on a 930 that we put twin turbos on a few years back.So you can take your sarcasm elsewhere.The fact is that I have used,tuned almost every system I have mentioned.You are right about Jason Seibels deveoping the Pro EFI and you must also know that he was the head tuner at AEM and has tuned many 1400 and 1500WHP Supras.

Also......................the Pro-EFI uses two wide-band inputs.The VE must be figured out before this system can work properly on any application.The system is not available yet which is what I said in my first post. For the expected entry price, nothing comes close to it. I still like the TEC so dont get me wrong.We have have a TEC3R on a wide-body, crazy single-turbo E36 in our shop.