A.Wayne

Scott,

Your explanation is one sided and very misleading , without getting winded , please i would like to see who on this planet has a GT 3 NA 911 making 400 whp!
The truth in fact is , that the 944 T had a huge advantage in GT3 for years of which only a handful capitalized on , most 944T running in GT3 are poorly prepared for the rules and or poorly driven mid pack cars. The reality most GT3 911's where giving up 100- 200 bhp to the 944 T under the old rules ,this rule change to the turbos was way over due and being involved on both sides i have always wondered why the old rules favored the turbo cars so much. The new rules fail for me as it would have been better to leave the weight but do as they do in other series and use inlet restrictors for the turbos, reducing power output is safer than adding weight to an already powerful car.

Under the new rules any decently prepared 944T will have a PWR of 5.7:1, a very well prepared 944T will be closer to 5:1 while the very best NA will have a power to weight of 6.1:1 with the average being closer to 7.0:1 factor in that Turbo cars need 10 % more power to run similar lap times and the rule via PWR is still fair. What is really bad is the extra weight acting on components , stress overtime the 944 t will require more tire changes , brakes ,bearings etc than the lighter cars , but for fast lap times they still have a power advantage, again , i would have preferred to see a power reduction via inlet restrictors more so than having weight added to the cars.

Jeff Lamb

Amen brother!! Scott, I agree with you completely on the above. I hold you in very high regard and I do acknowledge that we are both extremely passionate about this sport. I want this discussion to be a productive debate and not a bickering session. And, so far, this debate has been great because I have been learning a lot from it and I hope others are too.

Scott, that is not quite right. I am not saying that the rules changes are "good" for 944 turbos running the GT classes. I am simply wanting to productively debate the contention that many feel "the PCA is singling out the 944 turbos running in the GT classes and treating them unfairly." My point all along has been that the rules changes were going to occur at some point and SOME cars will be affected more than others. Scott, I think you would agree with me on the fact that we cannot expect the rules in any racing series to remain static over many years. Please let the web forum know your thoughts on this. So, I want to say again that I wasn't addressing whether or not the rules changes were "good" for 944 turbos.

My second focus in this debate has been the philosophy of PCA club racing. The philosophy of the PCA club racing rules appears to me to strongly encourage each and every racer to build the highest developed engine and chassis they possibly can to be competitive in any given class. Scott, do you agree with my observation? If so, this sort of racing would seem to be directly in-line with what motivates you and the folks you work with. It is a big challenge to stay on the leading edge of development.

Now, going back to the point I have been making all along, the new rules were put in place to address the continued development of cars running turbo engines versus those running normally aspirated engines. Regarding this point, I differ from your views in a big way. I believe there are many normally aspirated 911s running in GT3 that are pretty much developed to their limit with both their engine and their chassis with components and technologies available the the common man. Really, the only significant gain left for the normally aspirated crowd is to switch to a pneumatic valvetrain like an F1 car but this technology is not available to us mere mortals. And, we probably couldn't make a pneumatic valvetrain work within the confines of sticking with a Porsche engine anyway. However, compared to the many normally aspirated 911s that are at their upper limit on development, there are only a few 944 Turbos that are approaching their upper limit. However, every nice 944 Turbo GT3 race car that is approaching its upper limit STILL has significant gains ahead. Either they have not properly dry sumped their engines OR they haven't properly designed their chassis to be as light as possible OR they have not optimized their suspension OR they have not optimized their turbo configuration and tuning OR they have not addressed their cylinder head and valvetrain and oiling system to run higher rpms . . . OR . . . OR . . . the list goes on. This is what makes the 944 Turbo such an amazing vehicle. It is such a great car and has so much more potential than what many have tapped into in the past. However, the normally aspirated 911s don't really anything significant left to gain. These rules changes in a way show how good the 944 Turbo really is because they acknowledge the known capabilities of the car when properly developed.

Continuing with the above thought, regarding the few 944 turbos that are making steps towards the higher end of development, are you saying NONE of them can consistently beat the highly developed 911s running in the old GT3 class? I think your answer to this would be NO. Some of the guys running nice 944 Turbos even talk about not having too much trouble beating the normally aspirated 911s running in the old GT2 class. So, if there is even just ONE 944 turbo out there that can consistently beat the masses of highly developed normally aspirated 911s, then it is clear that the 944 turbo has advanced beyond the normally aspirated 911s running in GT3 and that other 944 turbos need to step up their game.

Scott, this is where you elaborate on some "real world" examples that compare an extremely highly developed 3.4 liter normally aspirated 911 producing 400 rwhp against a very mildly tuned 2.5 liter 944 turbo producing 400 rwhp. This seems to me to be a very misleading comparison because you are comparing apples to oranges. Let me explain:

* How many of you were aware that a 3.4 liter normally aspirated, air cooled, 2 valve 911 engine could produce 400hp?? Not me. This is roughly 118 hp/liter. If that is possible, then great. I don't know 911s well enough to disagree but it just sounds like a real stretch. If 400 rear wheel horsepower is possible to obtain from a 3.4 liter normally aspirated 911 engine, then I have got to believe this is right at the top of its development.

* How many of you are aware that a relatively mildly modified 2.5 liter, 2 valve 944 turbo can produce MORE than 400 rwhp? I bet almost ALL of you would say YES that is definitely NOT a problem at all. As a matter of fact, Special Tool's 2.5 liter 944 Turbo is producing 600 rwhp and his engine still isn't that incredibly exotic and not even broken in yet. He has just learned how to extract the maximum out of relatively affordable and available 944 turbo parts and I think that is awesome. The folks running 944 turbos still have a lot to learn a lot from Special Tool and Custom Engineered Performance (CEP via Evil944t) and Vitesse Racing (Fast951) and Under Pressure Performance. I would think the new PCA club racing rules have just given 944 Turbo tuners a fantastic opportunity to increase business.

So, let's focus on a proper comparison that is a little bit more of an apples to apples comparison. In the new GT3 class, lets compare this amazing 3.4 liter 2 valve, air cooled, normally aspirated 911 making 400 rwhp to a 2.5 liter 2 valve 944 turbo producing 600 rwhp. The 911 can run as light as a combined total weight of 2,060 pounds resulting in a weight/HP ratio of 5.15. The 944turbo can run as light as a combined total weight of 2,755 pounds resulting in a weight/HP ratio of 4.60. As you know, the lower number is better as the 944 Turbo is only accelerating 4.6 pounds for every one horsepower but the 911 is accelerating 5.15 pounds for every one horsepower. And, the 944 Turbo not only has big power, it has BIG torque too. And, the 944 Turbo isn't done yet. There is still more development to be had. The normally aspirated 911 has hit the wall in terms of development. How does this translate into on track performance -> The 944 turbo can turn up the boost and make his passes on the straight sections (which is easy) and then block the normally aspirated 911s in the corners (assuming the 911 can even catch the 944 turbo).

Scott, I do agree with you on your above paragraph and I do feel bad for guys running 944 Turbos who are looking at potentially having to change to a different class or make some modifications to stay in the same class. But, we all know that the rules can't stay the same forever. So, this rule change was going to impact some cars more than others. Please read my comments below. I want to know what kind of rules you were proposing that would have solved this whole problem.

Scott, I moved your above paragraphs to the end of my response because this is where the debate needs to continue. I, along with others, would like to know -> "What have you proposed that would have been better than what the PCA came up with??" If you have a better proposal for how the rules should work, then we all want to hear it so we can learn from it.

Best regards,
Jeff

Duke

Well I agree to the modded comment as well. That is why I think power to weight ratio is a good thing.

But in Sweden the Porsche club racing series does not have any cars with 6 digit $ investment in mods. So it might be that the super high budget guys in your racing series demands more detailed rules.

BBailey

GT racing with PCA is probably not the place to start if you want a "cheap" place to race and if you are an "entry level" team.

A.Wayne

Jeff,
Never seen nor heard of a 3.4 911 motor making 400 WHP or 475 BHP , 400 BHP yes , typically at the top 340 -345 WHP for a sprint engine 300-315 WHP for an enduro engine. 450 whp out of a 944 T is done with very little attempt...with unrestricted boost 600 whp is what is available at the top for sprint races , passing etc...

Duke

Just a wake up for statements regarding turbo engines cheatable via boost - think about a highly developed N/A race engine... how does the power curve look like? where and how does it make power?
That's right - high rpm's!

Just run your N/A race engine with a 6500 rpm redline at the dyno and then raise it to your "regular" 8500 rpms and there you go... a nice dyno sheet with less HP than on race day

95ONE

I guess I can see your points. I will probably run our tracks here in Houston and Compare them to some GT2 races, and their best times. I will upgrade brakes and whatever to improve. Sounds like fun. Just running in the classes and beating some of those guys will be more than satisfying.

There was no more joy, than when I had my NSX, passing 911 after 911. One of the guys that never waved me by - so I passed him anyway - came up to me after a heat and stated that, "I sure did make it look easy." He was sure I had some Slicks on the car. When he asked me what brand Slicks I was using. I looked down and said, "well, sumitomo rain tires on the front, and Some Rage craptastic tires on the back (looking rearward) When I turned around, he was already walking away.
The point of that story is this. It seems that for this reason, and these kind of people 951's are forced to change. So lets go kick their butts on THEIR terms. It will be even more satisfying.

BBailey

Who cares what CLASS you end up in. What should be important is that cars prepped to the limit in each class are competitive with each other. And with the new rules, we are closer than we used to be.

Fact is, a mildly modified GT car should run off the back, not mid-pack. If you aren't willing to invest to build the car, why should you expect to be even remotely competitive.

What people are missing is that the 3.0L NA 944S2/968 now actually have a place to race in GT. So there goes the "lets screw the 944 chassis guys". These guys now slot nicely into GT4 with a heavily developed chassis and into GT5 if they are running closer to stock weight.

In my mind one thing has really changed.

Now you have to have a FULLY developed engine to compete in whatever class you chose. You can no longer run a mildly prepped engine in a SUPERLIGHT chassis to gain competitiveness.

Anyone that things the 8V 4cylinder turbo's only had a 30% horsepower advantage over a normally aspirated engine is a moron. Pure and simply. Am sorry to be so very blunt. But thats all they could be called. This rule change starts to even up the disparity between turbo charged cars and normally aspirated cars and thats a good thing all around.

Jeff Lamb

Brian, you make some very good points. We had kind of forgotten about the new opportunity for the NA 944s in the GT classes.

Jeff

Jeff Lamb

Duke, I think this is part of the reason why the PCA has not gone the way the NASA series has gone. In the NASA series, they are going to have to contend with many trying to cheat on the dyno testing rules. The PCA won't have this problem.

Jeff

Jeff Lamb

Now that is the spirit!! Rise to the challenge and show the 911 crowd what these 944 Turbos can do!! 95ONE, I really look forward to hearing how things go for you in 2008. It sounds like you will start by completing your DE requirements to get your racing license. Then, once you have your racing license, go get 'em. If you can drive your 951 as well as you were driving the NSX with worn out tires, it sounds like you are going to be a driver we will be hearing a lot about!!

Jeff

warpedrotor

I find it amazing that somebody would quote the power potential of a 944 turbo based of "special tools car" - a car that has never raced on the track - a car that list its dyno sheets without showing any correction factors, like air temp or any other important data, but that is beside the point. I think roy chongs car would be a better example, or woodie weiss car.

Others quote 944 turbos that could weigh around 2100 pounds, OK please tell me of one car that actually runs at this weight

Others say 911 have no room left for further development but 944t's have many areas that have been yet be exploited, a blanket statement that hold no factual basis. How much did woodie Weiss spend developing his 944t 500,000 no maybe it was 600,000
well if that car wasn't developed what was?

If we are all talking about just the facts here then lets search our souls and put forth some unbiased opinions

There were three rules proposed for GT class all were directly targeted at the 944 turbo. FACT

There was a time when 911 was dominant in the gt3 class i believe it belonged to Mike Bavaro. Let look at that cars time and we can learn a lot - it doesnt take a rocket scientist to figure out what kind of horsepower somebody is making based on their lap times and based on Mikes time and few other more recent 911's that are racing - it is clear that these cars are making around 400horsepower and were not even talking about the torque advantage these cars have. I also think most would agree that it would be ignorant to some how assume that the majority of 911 drivers are some how better drivers then their 944 counter parts - if you took a cross section of both groups you would have on a percentage basis an equal amout of bad, good and great drivers unles somebody can point me towards a study that shows 911 drivers are more skilled then 944t drivers.

My final point is this - this bickering is going to go back and forth forever - so who really cares the rules are the rules and we have to live with them, lets just hope they don't change ever other year because that would be a big pain.

OK im ready let the attacks begin - I'm ready

Duke

But aren't the PCA rules based on displacement as one calculation factor?
Do they check that?

Jeff Lamb

Wow. Warpedrotor, what did you eat for Thanksgiving? Or, is it the coffee talking. I am trying to be as unbiased as I can. I love 944 Turbos. And, I love 911s. And, I am trying to have this debate in as polite a fashion as I can.

Regarding Special Tool's engine, at least we have a dyno sheet on it where he was really showing what a 2.5 liter 2 valve turbo engine can do. I am not going to bash what Special Tool has achieved. On the Roy Chong and Woody Weiss cars, show us a dyno sheet from their cars and describe their mods. If you can do that, I (and others) will likely be able to point towards significant further development that could be made on those cars (both chassis and engine). Regarding your statement that Woody's car cost $500k to $600k to build -> Well . . . that was a guy who had money to burn and burn it he did. I'm glad he did because he built a VERY nice car, but the money spent on that car was not spent as efficiently as it could have been. There are some on this list who can verify that.

Regarding pictures of the 2,100 pound 944 Turbo that was racing on the West Coast (and might still be), I am going to post another reply with these pictures.

Thanks for your input. Lets keep trying to be as unbiased as we can.

Jeff

Jeff Lamb

I am attaching some pics of a 944 Turbo built by Joe Anselmo. He got his PCA legal car down to 2,100 pounds including heavy nascar door bars. When you look at the lengths he went to save weight in a safe manner, this is the same thing many 911 chassis have already done.