333pg333

Firstly it depends on what you want to do with your car. Are you going to be tracking it often? Even if not there are some significant changes to be made as have been suggested already. For my 0.02 cents worth I'd save up and buy a set of KW Variant 3's or if you can afford it, the 2-way race*. (*These are custom made for you. Fantastic but expensive but not Moton expensive) The KW's allow you to have track car handling without feeling like you're driving on a rock-like setup on the road. Everyone who get's them and I mean 100% everyone says they are fantastic. Modern design not like some brands out there who are still locked in the 80's. http://www.kw-suspension.com/en/30_P...CHE&gruppe=all
Secondly I'd look into a proper LSD. The stock 40% is ok but it will not stand up to lots of trackwork. There's some nice ones floating about in here if you search Motorsport LSD.
Thirdly change out the old rubber bushes and bearings for some of the RacersEdge stuff. If you can afford it put on the new A-arms too if you significantly lower the car.
Forth get some R-spec tyres. They are amazing if you've not had them before.

Our cars we're setup for high speed Autobahn cruising when new. They can however be made to keep with anything on the road short of the very top level.

Porschefile

Ivai, it's perfectly reasonable to upgrade an older car to make it handle well or comparable to a newer car. There are plenty of damper options for these cars, so that part isn't a big deal. IMO, all the typical suspension upgrades (shocks/struts/sways/bushings/mounts/etc) as well as wider tires, wider wheels, and a proper alignment will get you around 80-90% of what you'd get with most conventional, newer sports cars. That last 5-10% is more a matter of physical suspension design and geometry IMO. Some things you just can't get around. For example, the torsion bar design in our cars is never going to ride quite as smooth as a well setup car with multi-link suspension.

That being said, the main issues I see with 944's in stock form is a severe lack of spring rate and the front tires are a bit small. Here are my recommendations:

-Stiffer Castor blocks (968 castor blocks are a nice and cheap upgrade)
-Stiffer motor mounts (the LR Ultramount is semi-solid and looks pretty nice)
-Thicker sways (968 M030's are a nice route for the price)
-Some sort of monoball camber plates
-Some sort of non-open diff; clutch type, helical, it doesn't matter. Open diff is for people with sand in their vagina.
-Wider wheels and tires (245's or larger up front preferrably)
-Better tire compound; most stuff much over 300-340 treadwear are basically econo tires. Stuff around 200-300 treadwear is usually a decent sporty tire
-Better dampers; I'll elaborate on this more in a bit
-STIFFER SPRING RATES; I'll elaborate on this more in a bit
-Replace suspension/steering rack bushings with harder material (polyurethane, delrin or monoballs)
-Make sure your steering components are in good condition. Replace anything that isn't
-Get a good proper "performance" alignment. There are some camber/castor/toe/etc adjustments that can be made different from factory specs to make the car drive a bit better and this definitely becomes necessary if you significantly lower the car as this will have a definite effect on the overall suspension travel, geometry, etc. A proper alignment can make a world of difference

As far as the spring rates go, stock is way too ridiculously soft. To be entirely honest and not hold any punches, the factory M030 suspension has retardedly soft spring rates. Sorry to those that like it but, the stock M030 spring rates are not good. Yes, they are Koni yellows and yes the fronts are ride height adjustable but, the spring rate itself is WAY too soft. IIRC I believe the fronts are something like 175# springs, which is so soft that the car has entirely too much suspension movement for a sports car. Spring rates in the 300-500# range are a good idea, depending on everyone's personal preferences. Using dampers set stiff to compensate for a lack of spring rate and reduce suspension travel is NOT a proper way to tune suspension. Total vehicle weight is also a consideration though. A 2500# car is going to require different spring rates than a 3000# car to produce the same effect.

As far as dampers go, there is a pretty large selection for these cars. It's my recommendation that if you just want to keep it simple and cheap, do Koni yellows, Paragon coilover conversion for the Koni's, and run some stiffer springs (300#+) and upgrade the torsion bars accordingly. That makes for a nice, tight setup, however I've found that Koni yellows seem to be valved a bit too stiff out of the box for most moderate spring rates plus with the constant compression valving they have a bit of a rough ride compaired to some high end coilovers. Anyways, if you want to spend a good amount of money and buy some quality units, give some serious thought to some of the ~$2-2.5k coilovers out there. IMO, the Bilstien Escorts are a bit of a ripoff for the price considering you can't even adjust the dampening or rebound, however they still seem to work fine for most people. If you want an improved ride, there are some newer technology coilovers such as JIC's or KW's which have much improved valving over old stuff like Koni yellows, Bilstein escorts, etc. The Escorts are more of a $1k level coilover IMO, but JIC's, KW's and many of the other ones truly are worth the $2k + price. I'd leave stuff like Ohlins, Motons, etc for hardcore track cars and save the money as that's overkill on the street.

pete95zhn

"H&R RSS CLUB SPORT NOW AVAILABLE FOR PORSCHE 944" :

http://www.hrsprings.com/site/news/i..._from=&ucat=2&

And here's a cut from their product catalogue ( in German & English ) where you can find specs for the set...and because this set uses H&R racing springs, you can easily find detailed info about them, including spring rates. Which, btw, are quite impressive...

http://www.h-r.com/katalog_download_en/Porsche.pdf

The best part of this set is that there's no shock adjustment, it's done at the factory. How many of us are so experienced that can do it really properely...??!

Ballistic-Chapman

Sorry to go slightly off topic but I currently have Kuhmo Ecsta Supra tires
Front: 225/40 and 91w
Rear: 255/40 and 94w
treadwear: 280

Is this a good tire set-up for an aggresive street car?

edit: great thread. I've learned so much new stuff.

pole position

You must work at Weissach.

With a statement like that one has to wonder why PAG even bothers to develop new technology when they, apparently according to you , found the holy grail a quarter century ago. Does the word torsional rigidity ring a bell ? Because the the 951 is about as stiff as a pair of old leather ski boots in comparison to new performance cars.

The basic suspension geometry of the 951 is pretty hopeless when measured against newer PAG or BMW offerings .

Before you get all defensive I suggest you get a third party like Chris Cervelli involved, someone who actually raced a real track (not street weekend racer) modified 951 on slicks as hardcore as it gets and what he thinks of the 951 suspension.....

Porschefile

Kumho Ecsta Supras aren't high performance tires unfortunately. For some reason their treadwear is only 280, however they don't have near the performance or grip as a large number of sub 300 treadwear tires I've used before. The only Kumho I'd use for performance purposes is the MX, which is a pretty decent tire for the price. Other than that, stuff like Potenza Re750's, S02's, S03's or whatever current Potenza is out, Pilot Sport Ps2's, Falken RT-615's, Conti Sport Contact 2's are okay (there's better out there for the price), etc etc. There are some very entry level "performance" tires out there like Yoko Es100's for relatively cheap, but they usually don't offer near the performance of tires around $50 more expensive (say ~$100 as opposed to $150). 225's up front is too skinny IMO. Personally, I'll never go less than 245's up front again. What size wheels do you have up front? I'd try to do a 235 or 245 or larger if you can as that will help eliminate some of the understeer inherent in these cars from the factory.

ausgeflippt951

Hmmm sorry to hijack but your comment provoked my thoughts yet again, and as a result I have a quick OT-yet-on-topic question:

I've got an '86 w/ the stock 16" phones. Stock it came w/ 205 fronts and 225 rears I believe, but what is the largest width i can fit on those stockers? j/w because buying new wheels altogether is not an option...

Porschefile

Well, adjusting dampening or rebound isn't rocket science. Usually most sub $3000 coilovers are single adjustable, so that makes it even easier. Personally, I look at it like this. If I'm paying $2000+ for a set of coilovers, I want all of the adjustments possible to account for any changes in driving surface (for track and street use) and/or future changes in other areas of the suspension. Honestly, there are far too many variables on every car out there for some "factory" setting to cover them all. Not giving you any kind of dampening adjustments for that much money is not too appealing to me, and probably the reason I will forever be a lifelong enemy of the Bilstein Escorts! j/k Seriously though, not providing you any kind of adjustments, honestly, the H&R and Bilstein coilovers for these cars really shouldn't cost any more than $1-1.5k. IMO anything more is a ripoff because you could accomplish the same basic thing for 50% less by simply doing a coilover conversion to Koni's, and hell you can have those revalved and converted to double adjustable for cheaper as well!

Porschefile

The best option I've found in that case is to run 225/50/16's up front and 245/45/16's out back, that's assuming they are 951 phonedials (meaning 7" fronts and 8" rears). That's about the widest you can go on the stock wheels before the tire would start "ballooning" out on the sidewall like a truck tire or something. Running those sizes, I believe, keeps the overall tire diameter almost the same as stock so there won't be any significant variance in the speedometer reading. Anyone please correct me if I'm wrong.

sawood12

Hi all, i've just registerd and this is my first post. This subject is close to my heart. I first got my 951 on the strength of a recommendation of a work collegue who rally's and had a 951 at the time and raved on about it's superb balance - and I trust his judgement. On the whole i've not been dissapointed but when I drive more modern machinery I sense levels of grip and general confidence that I don't get with my 951. Sure i'm confident that if I were to overstep the mark i'd have more chance of recovering the situation than I would in more modern cars, but it just didn't feel as direct or planted. Off the back off a fewUK users and Patricks raving on about them so much I took the plunge with KWv3. Wow, what a difference. The car feels so different, grip levels has improved dramatically, the car corners with no noticalbe body roll (though i've not been out on track yet) and the car brakes so much better and despite the lack of LSD I can seem to get on the throttle so much earlier (though i've only got around flywheel 270bhp - at the moment!). In terms of how the car feels relative to modern cars - it now feels better. So in answer to the original question: YES!

My car is a 1987 951 and when fitting the KW I also fitted M030 rear TB's, Racers Edge camber adjustable top mounts (which have made negligable difference to ride quality) and the Rennbay geometry correcting ball joint kit with the phosphor Bronze bushes. I've also got 968 castor mounts. ARB's are still standard but with new bushes. Another thumbs up for KW.

RKD in OKC

Did you just ride or did you drive these cars? When riding cars feel a lot different than driving. However, I did set the 2nd fastest lap time at our local PCA autocross in my 2007 BMW X3 last month. The X3 does have several //M badges on it, the sport option. The option includes 225/19 pirelli rossos all round.

The main difference I see with our cars compared to newer cars is the use of progressive springs. Yes you can up the spring rates on our cars and they track like nobodies business, but you sacrifice ride comfort. These new cars have progressive springs that profide a smooth ride, but firm up quickly when getting down to business.

When I did suspension on my 88 Turbo S several years ago I put the largest rear bar available on the rear and 180-410 progressive springs on the front, and welt adjustable sways front and rear. After a good corner balancing it was the car to beat, but was just a bit harsh on the street.

In my opinion, if you aren't bottoming out the suspension, the springs are stiff enough.

reno808

How do they run. I am in the process of buying coilovers. I was thinking is bilstien escortscups.

333pg333

"The main difference I see with our cars compared to newer cars is the use of progressive springs. Yes you can up the spring rates on our cars and they track like nobodies business, but you sacrifice ride comfort. These new cars have progressive springs that profide a smooth ride, but firm up quickly when getting down to business."

RKD, that's just the point. You can have your cake and eat it too. In other words you don't have to suffer ride quality to get a car that handles on rails anymore. I tell you once KW's start to get greater coverage in your US market many of you will jump aboard and be amazed.
Oh and welcome Scott. This forum's a bit different to what you're used to but there's lots of good tech advice and a different perspective which is often good.

anders44

everything is possible, it's just a question how much money

as for the bilsteins I think they are old/outdated. I myself went with KW.

and, if you buy used springs/shocks/other, remember this stuff, they wear out! it's a servicepart!

the service intervall on my suspension is once a year, and thats brand new stuff, imagine how unhappy your 20 year old shocks are..

sawood12

951 M030 front springs are progressive rate and according to the chap who installed my KW says in his opinion M030 is not even in the same league as KW. I don't know if the KW springs are progressive rate, however the shock absorbers do have dual damping rates which is why I've been able to significantly increase spring rates on the rubbish roads in we have to put up with in the UK without causing severe spinal injuries.