turbocharger review - pauer tuning
05-16-2007, 10:20 AM
#61
Instructor
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Atlanta, GA
Posts: 201
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
This is a great thread. I guess some people HAVE to know what specs their turbos are, while others trust the complicated stuff to the experts.
I guess the only question I have about all this before and after turbo swap dyno runs is that we all know that running a different dyno or even running on a different day can signifigantly change your results so unless you are making a dyno pull, then disassembling the car, replacing the turbo and rerunning within an hour or two, your numbers aren't that accurate.
I guess the only question I have about all this before and after turbo swap dyno runs is that we all know that running a different dyno or even running on a different day can signifigantly change your results so unless you are making a dyno pull, then disassembling the car, replacing the turbo and rerunning within an hour or two, your numbers aren't that accurate.
05-16-2007, 11:01 AM
#62
Thanks Nize for the thread and your willingness to share your results and help others through this process - I really look forward to seeing your results.
Thanks for perservering... I really don't know how many times you have to explain, or how much more clearly you can state that your comparison is a true Turbo v Turbo comparison - it was very clear to me upon first viewing.
To me, the spirit in which you have started this thread, and the willingness even to share maps once completed is really what these types of forums should be all about.
As for specifications... this is something I also like to know - I like to understand and be involved in the process, this must be an aid in planning future upgrades and also in the initial selection process. It's difficult for me to understand how one could expect to make a good decision in this regard without the requisite facts. As for Vic, the impression i get is that he is happy to discuss all these things with genuine parties that are prepared to make contact with him - which is about as much as anyone could ask. It certainly does not come accross to me that Vic has made any demand that parties not disclose but, rather, that you have taken the view that if people want further information than what you have provided, they should contact Vic direct and discuss their requirements - again, I don't understand how Nize can be critcized for this.
I understand there can be vested interests at times which may not be anything more that an afinity for a product already purchased but can at times be something more. Whilst that may be fine, depending on the motives, please respect that this is Nize's thread started by Nize about his experience with the turbo he purchased and the reasons why etc... for those who are interested.
So Nize and Vic, keep up the good work!
Thanks for perservering... I really don't know how many times you have to explain, or how much more clearly you can state that your comparison is a true Turbo v Turbo comparison - it was very clear to me upon first viewing.
To me, the spirit in which you have started this thread, and the willingness even to share maps once completed is really what these types of forums should be all about.
As for specifications... this is something I also like to know - I like to understand and be involved in the process, this must be an aid in planning future upgrades and also in the initial selection process. It's difficult for me to understand how one could expect to make a good decision in this regard without the requisite facts. As for Vic, the impression i get is that he is happy to discuss all these things with genuine parties that are prepared to make contact with him - which is about as much as anyone could ask. It certainly does not come accross to me that Vic has made any demand that parties not disclose but, rather, that you have taken the view that if people want further information than what you have provided, they should contact Vic direct and discuss their requirements - again, I don't understand how Nize can be critcized for this.
I understand there can be vested interests at times which may not be anything more that an afinity for a product already purchased but can at times be something more. Whilst that may be fine, depending on the motives, please respect that this is Nize's thread started by Nize about his experience with the turbo he purchased and the reasons why etc... for those who are interested.
So Nize and Vic, keep up the good work!
05-16-2007, 11:02 AM
#63
[Edit]
Vic at Pauerman Tuning knows his stuff, I have no issues with that, and I have heard he provides good customer service. So does John at Vitesse and Dave and Mike at Lindsey. Its nice to have choices.
Regards,
Vic at Pauerman Tuning knows his stuff, I have no issues with that, and I have heard he provides good customer service. So does John at Vitesse and Dave and Mike at Lindsey. Its nice to have choices.
Regards,
05-16-2007, 12:00 PM
#64
Burning Brakes
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Aurora, Colorado
Posts: 775
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Having made the mistake of buying a 'stage 2, dual ballbearing' turbo from Huntley not knowing exactly what it is...I can say I would not for a moment ever consider buying another 'secret inside' turbo. Huntley goes under...when it is time for a rebuild...who do you send it to? What do you tell them you want and where do they get the parts? I just went through this and it was a pain in the ***. Literally took longer for them to look over and give my turbo a clean bill of health than it took me to gather all the parts and completely rebuild my motor. In fact the motor was waiting two weeks for the turbo to show back up (6 weeks on the turbo turn around).
I do understand the concept of keeping modifications in house so that competitors can not duplicate your work...but then if a real competitor wanted to duplicate a turbo setup they would simply buy one and disassemble it....then sell it in here as an unused turbo and net very little if any loss. Just like that, the secret is out.
I can understand not releasing the info on a webpage, but I will never buy another magic inside but I can't tell you what it is turbo....in my turbo I ended up with a turbonetics after being told it was based on a Garrett. Still delivers all the power I could want and all in all I have no complaints but the next turbo I buy...there will be no secrets, or I will buy something else.
Just my .02, your mileage may vary and this advice is worth what you paid for it.
I do understand the concept of keeping modifications in house so that competitors can not duplicate your work...but then if a real competitor wanted to duplicate a turbo setup they would simply buy one and disassemble it....then sell it in here as an unused turbo and net very little if any loss. Just like that, the secret is out.
I can understand not releasing the info on a webpage, but I will never buy another magic inside but I can't tell you what it is turbo....in my turbo I ended up with a turbonetics after being told it was based on a Garrett. Still delivers all the power I could want and all in all I have no complaints but the next turbo I buy...there will be no secrets, or I will buy something else.
Just my .02, your mileage may vary and this advice is worth what you paid for it.
05-16-2007, 12:04 PM
#65
Originally Posted by nize
do you have such a dyno sheet for your car(s)? where is it?
05-16-2007, 12:34 PM
#66
Originally Posted by nize
i guess the 'ready to buy' is gut feeling. hell i was ready to buy a vitesse turbo if i had just known the specs. the most important aspect of a turbo upgrade for me was that i wanted to make sure i got a dual ball bearing turbo.
Originally Posted by nize
as for the specs, i've already told you and everybody else the specs that matter the most. why don't you be fair and tell us the specs of a vitesse stage2? or do you not even know what the specs are of the turbo you have? do you know how many cylinders and displacement your motor is? maybe you don't care, but this type of information is critical to tuners.
what is a stage2? what is a stage3, 4, &5 ? without specifications you may as well call them voodoo2, pixiedust3, and blackmagic4.
what is a stage2? what is a stage3, 4, &5 ? without specifications you may as well call them voodoo2, pixiedust3, and blackmagic4.
As for the Stage 2,3,4,5 you could also call them 60-1 HiFi, 60-1, 62-1, etc. and then look up the specifications but when it comes to tuning you still have to rely on your datalogs. All the specifications tell you is whether the turbo you selected is suitable for your car. If someone has already told you it is suitable for your car and given you the results (dynosheets) of the specific turbo for your car you don't really need the specs - except to try and figure out what they put together so that it can be copied. Once it's been tuned and you put down the same numbers as the vendor said you would what good do the specs do?
Originally Posted by nize
again, i'm not comparing tunes. i'm only comparing turbos.
how much more 'fairly' can you look at something other than two turbos on the same car with identical mods and tunes?
how much more 'fairly' can you look at something other than two turbos on the same car with identical mods and tunes?
Originally Posted by nize
of course. hell, i'll even help them fine-tune their wolf3d systems and tell them the exact specs of my turbo. will you?
05-16-2007, 02:08 PM
#67
Banned
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: seattle, washington - usa
Posts: 1,822
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by SoloRacer
So if I called Vic and asked for all the specs - including the ones you won't share you are saying he will tell me based upon my "gut feeling" that I am going to buy one from him? So why all the secrecy on your part?
Originally Posted by SoloRacer
I can't tell you the specs of any of the Vitesse turbos because I don't know them.
Originally Posted by SoloRacer
But I do know that you can tune a car without knowing the specs of the turbo. Any tuner can tell you that. I have a Dynojet 248 and all it takes is a few pulls to get an idea of what you are dealing with. It's the results that matter not the specs. For tuning a car knowing the specs is not as critical as you seem to believe.
Originally Posted by SoloRacer
As for the Stage 2,3,4,5 you could also call them 60-1 HiFi, 60-1, 62-1, etc. and then look up the specifications but when it comes to tuning you still have to rely on your datalogs. All the specifications tell you is whether the turbo you selected is suitable for your car. If someone has already told you it is suitable for your car and given you the results (dynosheets) of the specific turbo for your car you don't really need the specs - except to try and figure out what they put together so that it can be copied. Once it's been tuned and you put down the same numbers as the vendor said you would what good do the specs do?
Originally Posted by SoloRacer
I wasn't talking about the fairness in comparing turbos. I was talking about the fairness in comparing vendors.
Originally Posted by SoloRacer
The dyno sheets and results are what will tell us the what the differences between the turbos are. Until you post results all we are really talking about is vendors. You hammer on the other vendors for not providing service or specifications and then you tell us that the one you selected isn't willing to give us the full specifications and on your car he isn't doing any of the tuning. It makes you appear to be less than partial - in fact it makes you appear to be more of a shill for the vendor you selected with a vendetta against certain others. Again I'm not being insulting I'm just pointing out how things appear. You might think I'm a big supporter of Vitesse or Lindsey, etc. but the truth is that I have no obligation to any of them. But I don't think it fair for you or anyone else to come here and slag them for doing things that Pauer isn't willing to do either. That is why I suggested earlier that the vendor related stuff you added to this thread was a not right.
Originally Posted by SoloRacer
To be clear I don't hold any animosity towards you or Pauer and who knows if his turbo produces great results I might end up buying one. It's the results that matter - not whether it has a .83 exhaust housing or what compressor wheel they use. After all it's the results that put the smile on your face when you go blasting down the highway.
Originally Posted by SoloRacer
If you need a map for a 13b turbocharged rotary I can help you there but I don't have any 951 maps for a Wolf3d. If I did I would be more than happy to share them - with the disclaimer that they do so at their own risk.
05-16-2007, 02:37 PM
#68
Pro
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Napa Valley, CA
Posts: 589
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Nize,
You have a very informative thread here, please don’t let the dark side lure you down a path that detracts you from keeping it factual and useful. I look forward to more information on your dual ball bearing turbo experience.
You have a very informative thread here, please don’t let the dark side lure you down a path that detracts you from keeping it factual and useful. I look forward to more information on your dual ball bearing turbo experience.
05-16-2007, 02:48 PM
#70
UAE Rennlist Ambassador
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Just a note,
dual ball bearing turbocharger rebuilds are either costly or not possible at times. Some turbocharger builders would not touch the dual BB center sections, others can but the housing internals are not rebuildable.
in either case, this is sort of "old news", since a vast majority of the new turbochargers today (even dual BB) are rebuildable. They cost more than the thrust or "standard" turbo rebuild, i believe prices for a dual BB rebuild starts at $400+, compared to a thrust bearing which starts at $250.
But, the dual BB are definately worth it, as Nize shows how they spool, and Nize, you are still using the stock AFM right? wait till he removes it.....
dual ball bearing turbocharger rebuilds are either costly or not possible at times. Some turbocharger builders would not touch the dual BB center sections, others can but the housing internals are not rebuildable.
in either case, this is sort of "old news", since a vast majority of the new turbochargers today (even dual BB) are rebuildable. They cost more than the thrust or "standard" turbo rebuild, i believe prices for a dual BB rebuild starts at $400+, compared to a thrust bearing which starts at $250.
But, the dual BB are definately worth it, as Nize shows how they spool, and Nize, you are still using the stock AFM right? wait till he removes it.....
05-16-2007, 02:57 PM
#71
Banned
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: seattle, washington - usa
Posts: 1,822
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by hosrom_951
Just a note,
dual ball bearing turbocharger rebuilds are either costly or not possible at times. Some turbocharger builders would not touch the dual BB center sections, others can but the housing internals are not rebuildable.
in either case, this is sort of "old news", since a vast majority of the new turbochargers today (even dual BB) are rebuildable. They cost more than the thrust or "standard" turbo rebuild, i believe prices for a dual BB rebuild starts at $400+, compared to a thrust bearing which starts at $250.
But, the dual BB are definately worth it, as Nize shows how they spool, and Nize, you are still using the stock AFM right? wait till he removes it.....
dual ball bearing turbocharger rebuilds are either costly or not possible at times. Some turbocharger builders would not touch the dual BB center sections, others can but the housing internals are not rebuildable.
in either case, this is sort of "old news", since a vast majority of the new turbochargers today (even dual BB) are rebuildable. They cost more than the thrust or "standard" turbo rebuild, i believe prices for a dual BB rebuild starts at $400+, compared to a thrust bearing which starts at $250.
But, the dual BB are definately worth it, as Nize shows how they spool, and Nize, you are still using the stock AFM right? wait till he removes it.....
in my chat with a local kkk-authorized rebuilder, i found out why dbb turbos cost more to rebuild. it's because garrett does not sell the individual components required for a proper rebuild, and a dbb turbo itself costs more out of the box.
in any case, i'm not worried about rebuilding the dbb. i figure by the time it fails in 17 years or more, prices will have come down just like they did with the kkk journal/thrust bearings.
and yes, i'm still using the stock afm, stock snorkle, and all related stock intake plumbing.
oh, minus the j-boot mod to adapt to 3" turbo compressor inlet that i've already mentioned in the first post.
05-16-2007, 04:23 PM
#72
Addict
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Phoenix, AZ - NJ Runaway
Posts: 3,649
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
You know this whole behind the scenes……..one tuner undercutting another thing is just getting so old and to be perfectly honest this is one of the few car boards I see this on. I read on board that have some of the most egotistical self centered maniacs that I’ve ever met and these things rarely ever come up. I guess this is just par for the course when it comes to a group of guys trying to make a living off of a 20 year limited production car the average college kid can afford. I’d hate to say it Nize but these types of posts are probably a long time coming and your just getting the ****ty end of it. Remember that your “tuner” bombarded others with the same types of questions in the past and you’re here expressing your pleasure with his products so however unnecessary it may be, it was coming.
This thread has gotten so far off topic it’s insane so I’ll add my few cents. As an owner of Vitesse products I know every aspect of my “stage 2” turbo. As part of a gentlemen’s agreement I have never repeated those to even my closest friends because the integrity of my word is more important that being a web board hero. If you can’t respect my integrity or agreements then quite frankly….**** Off (this wasn’t intended for any one in specific but more a representation of my attitude). Vic can vouch for that one as he inquired about the wheel sizes when I had it off the car as well and despite our close friendship, I kept it at bay. I did not know what the specs were until after I owned it and quite frankly I didn’t care what they were. What I really cared about was………
1. What RPM would I reach 15psi?
2. What Hp would it make?
3. What’s the upper limit of the turbo’s efficiency range for my particular application?
4. What kind of support or guarantee will I get that the product will perform as advertised?
5. Do you have any real world results that I can review?
To me, price is irrelevant. I just dropped 1600 on pistons I waited two years for and 1200 on rods that are probably overkill for my 3.0L application. When I select a turbo, price will be irrelevant as well. I just want whatever I purchase to perform to my expectations without having to look back and second guess myself. For me that was the beauty of the Vitesse products. I recently installed some products from another vendor that kind of pissed me off a bit because what they told me as far as fitment and “issues” during pre purchase turned out to be a whole different story post purchase and all of a sudden they were new issues they were sure they told me about. Had I know this before hand I would have still purchased the product but would have had a different approach and probably saved myself quite a bit of time.
As far as Vic’s turbo’s go, again I could care less what his wheel sizes are provided I wasn’t getting bull****ted. And while Vic and a number of other people have cried foul over the years for John and his customers for not posting intimate details of the products there will be quite a bit of pressure on them to live up to their values and post specifics as they demanded. Me personally, if he/they doesn’t then I can respect that but see I do see some hypocrisy in it but as always it never amazes me what people will do to make a couple hundred bucks. As a consumer, as long as questions 1, 2, 3, 4, & 5 are answered honestly and openly I don’t care what the specs are so the questions I have to you and/or Vic are…….
1. What RPM would I reach 15psi? (you’ve answered this and I like the results).
2. What HP would it make for my application?
3. What’s the upper limit of the turbo’s efficiency range for my particular application?
4. What kind of support or guarantee will I get that the product will perform as advertised?
5. Do you have any real world results that I can review?
At this point I find a bunch of things on Rennlist and these tuners funny and I’ll only speak about my area. Only a small group of AZ guys are on the list however I know of at least 40 local 944/51 guys that don’t have a clue who some of these tuners are. Additionally I never see Pauertuning, Powerhause, or any other “experts” we hear about on Rennlist campaigning their products at the local tracks each month. Not in the last couple years at least. Any one at a track in Atlanta, or Oklahoma ever see a 944/51 tuner campaigning their products? I bet you have and those are the guys I respect because they’re developing their products in a fashion I’m going to use them in and not sitting on a dyno or basing their products off of VE table they read somewhere or because they have a C. Bell book under their pillow. I find it too funny when local tuners have virtually zero support from their home town but are hero’s on a relatively anonymous web board. Lindsey racing is never on here but yet they manage to stay in business? How does that happen?
I haven’t paid much attention to Rennlist lately because it is becoming a joke now and I could really care less if it is around. For the most part it is 80% entertainment value, 18% communication value (PM’s), and 2% technical value. I’ve also been spending a lot of time playing with my “daily driver” and in my search for a TT kit, just about every tuner out there for it tells me 90% of the turbo specs and most have Dyno numbers but again that offers very little value to me. Ironically very few can tell me how it will perform on the track, about the ease of installation, or how it will perform as a daily driver (at least honestly) so my search continues but 800+ at the wheels with great street ability is the goal………
Nize, assuming your intent of this thread was honorable and I’m betting it was, I like the spool up characteristics and the price of your new turbo and hope to see more unbiased opinions. The fitment issues seem reasonable but I’m really looking forward to see what kind of power you get out of it. My experience with a BB turbo on a 951 was horrible because it made 400 RWHP but felt like a turbo diesel rabbit below 5K. I was recently in another 400 RWHP+ car with a huge Lindsey turbo and it was a raped ape after 4500 but pretty miserable below that which was a complete turnoff for me.
I really hope John D gets a hold of his vendor’s and well as new pseudo vendors who are poaching or there will be very few experienced people left around here.
This thread has gotten so far off topic it’s insane so I’ll add my few cents. As an owner of Vitesse products I know every aspect of my “stage 2” turbo. As part of a gentlemen’s agreement I have never repeated those to even my closest friends because the integrity of my word is more important that being a web board hero. If you can’t respect my integrity or agreements then quite frankly….**** Off (this wasn’t intended for any one in specific but more a representation of my attitude). Vic can vouch for that one as he inquired about the wheel sizes when I had it off the car as well and despite our close friendship, I kept it at bay. I did not know what the specs were until after I owned it and quite frankly I didn’t care what they were. What I really cared about was………
1. What RPM would I reach 15psi?
2. What Hp would it make?
3. What’s the upper limit of the turbo’s efficiency range for my particular application?
4. What kind of support or guarantee will I get that the product will perform as advertised?
5. Do you have any real world results that I can review?
To me, price is irrelevant. I just dropped 1600 on pistons I waited two years for and 1200 on rods that are probably overkill for my 3.0L application. When I select a turbo, price will be irrelevant as well. I just want whatever I purchase to perform to my expectations without having to look back and second guess myself. For me that was the beauty of the Vitesse products. I recently installed some products from another vendor that kind of pissed me off a bit because what they told me as far as fitment and “issues” during pre purchase turned out to be a whole different story post purchase and all of a sudden they were new issues they were sure they told me about. Had I know this before hand I would have still purchased the product but would have had a different approach and probably saved myself quite a bit of time.
As far as Vic’s turbo’s go, again I could care less what his wheel sizes are provided I wasn’t getting bull****ted. And while Vic and a number of other people have cried foul over the years for John and his customers for not posting intimate details of the products there will be quite a bit of pressure on them to live up to their values and post specifics as they demanded. Me personally, if he/they doesn’t then I can respect that but see I do see some hypocrisy in it but as always it never amazes me what people will do to make a couple hundred bucks. As a consumer, as long as questions 1, 2, 3, 4, & 5 are answered honestly and openly I don’t care what the specs are so the questions I have to you and/or Vic are…….
1. What RPM would I reach 15psi? (you’ve answered this and I like the results).
2. What HP would it make for my application?
3. What’s the upper limit of the turbo’s efficiency range for my particular application?
4. What kind of support or guarantee will I get that the product will perform as advertised?
5. Do you have any real world results that I can review?
At this point I find a bunch of things on Rennlist and these tuners funny and I’ll only speak about my area. Only a small group of AZ guys are on the list however I know of at least 40 local 944/51 guys that don’t have a clue who some of these tuners are. Additionally I never see Pauertuning, Powerhause, or any other “experts” we hear about on Rennlist campaigning their products at the local tracks each month. Not in the last couple years at least. Any one at a track in Atlanta, or Oklahoma ever see a 944/51 tuner campaigning their products? I bet you have and those are the guys I respect because they’re developing their products in a fashion I’m going to use them in and not sitting on a dyno or basing their products off of VE table they read somewhere or because they have a C. Bell book under their pillow. I find it too funny when local tuners have virtually zero support from their home town but are hero’s on a relatively anonymous web board. Lindsey racing is never on here but yet they manage to stay in business? How does that happen?
I haven’t paid much attention to Rennlist lately because it is becoming a joke now and I could really care less if it is around. For the most part it is 80% entertainment value, 18% communication value (PM’s), and 2% technical value. I’ve also been spending a lot of time playing with my “daily driver” and in my search for a TT kit, just about every tuner out there for it tells me 90% of the turbo specs and most have Dyno numbers but again that offers very little value to me. Ironically very few can tell me how it will perform on the track, about the ease of installation, or how it will perform as a daily driver (at least honestly) so my search continues but 800+ at the wheels with great street ability is the goal………
Nize, assuming your intent of this thread was honorable and I’m betting it was, I like the spool up characteristics and the price of your new turbo and hope to see more unbiased opinions. The fitment issues seem reasonable but I’m really looking forward to see what kind of power you get out of it. My experience with a BB turbo on a 951 was horrible because it made 400 RWHP but felt like a turbo diesel rabbit below 5K. I was recently in another 400 RWHP+ car with a huge Lindsey turbo and it was a raped ape after 4500 but pretty miserable below that which was a complete turnoff for me.
I really hope John D gets a hold of his vendor’s and well as new pseudo vendors who are poaching or there will be very few experienced people left around here.
05-16-2007, 04:36 PM
#73
Formula One Spin Doctor
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Originally Posted by nize
i thought i'd write a review on my recent custom turbo upgrade.
the turbo upgrade i was looking for had to meet these very difficult qualifications;
1) fastest spool possible, must spool like the stock turbo-s turbocharger. i was not willing to sacrifice lag for power. i was looking for 18psi by 3krpm with no dropoff to redline.
2) be able to support 350whp.
3) be plug-and-play. i wasn't willing to jump through hoops and hunt down special nuts and bolts and clamps and adapters for a turbo swap.
4) the vendor must be willing to communicate with me about exactly what i was paying for. sadly, this dropped vitesse off the list as i wasn't able to get any detailed specs regarding their turbo for a meaningful comparison. i would love to see a back-to-back vitesse turbo review with dyno graphs.
after much research, debate, and discussions, i decided what i was looking for was a garrett dual ball bearing center cartridge with a 50-trim compressor and #8 hot side. fortunately for 951 owners, there are many porsche specialists to choose from when considering a turbo upgrade, and many more choices of turbochargers. unfortunately and understandably, most vendors will not tell you the exact specifications of their turbos for fear of copy-cat vendors stealing their designs. following is a list of the vendors i considered during my turbo hunt, and the reasons why i did not choose to go with them. they are not in any particular order.
vitesse stage2;
this was actually my original first choice. although i have heard great testimony regarding their turbochargers, i could get no technical information regarding what exactly i would be buying. this combined with no concrete before and after dyno graphs plus the extremely high price (they were by far the most expensive) made me choose to seek a different vendor. i believe if i'm paying premium for something, i should know exactly what i'm paying premium for.
http://www.vitesseracing.com/html/turbo.html
ultimate motorwerks;
this is a vendor local to me and i have heard great things about their 'zero clearance' turbos, but i have also heard that they need to be rebuilt often because they coat the inside of the compressor housing with some material to get the 'zero clearance'. i wanted more reliability and less maintenance so i looked elsewhere. there is also no technical information regarding these turbos.
http://www.ultimatemotorwerks.com/
innovate motorsports;
i sent an email but got no response. their website also does not contain any information regarding their turbo product(s).
http://imsmotorsports.com/
034 motorsport;
this is actually the least expensive vendor as far as listed price is concerned. the only concern i had was that they were unable to provide 951-specific support or advice so i had a feeling i would be on my own as far as special adapters, oil lines, and fittings were concerned. for the true do-it-yourselfer, this may be the most cost-effective route.
http://www.034motorsport.com/product...8f26063501ba33
john milledge engineering;
this is another vendor with a legendary reputation in the 951 world so i naturally sent him an email with my initial request. he replied to the first email stating that the group-a type turbo was no longer available and that my target goals were unattainable, then failed to reply to repeated emails asking for more information. i got the impression he was a difficult person to deal with and unwilling to work with customers. or maybe i just got him during a bad week.
http://www.jmengines.com/index.htm
lindsey racing;
what i love about lindsey racing is that they give you all of the information you might ever want regarding their products. what i don't love is that all of their turbos are oldskool journal+thrust bearings with crazy lag and that no ball bearing turbos are available. who cares if you're making 400hp if you have to wait until 5000rpm for full boost? dave should get with the times and stock some dual ball bearing turbos.
http://www.lindseyracing.com/mm5/mer...944TURBOSSUPER
pauer tuning;
vic at pauer tuning was not only very prompt to my initial emails, he was also forthcoming with information regarding turbochargers in general and why i should choose his product (or not). he was also willing to beat any competitor pricing and provide after-sale support and installation advice. throughout the entire initial exchange, i kept thinking 'now here's a vendor who really knows how to treat potential customers and is as excited about 951's as i am' so i chose to go with him.
http://www.pauertuning.com/turbos.htm
i should also mention that i have three local 951 friends who are also in the market for a turbo upgrade and they were all eagerly awaiting my research and legwork so they could copy my results and purchase. i didn't mention this to any of the vendors up front because i wanted to see how my single purchase went. by the time i placed my order, one other local 951 buddy also ordered the identical turbo from pauer tuning so vic got a double sale. two other local 951 guys will be ordering their turbos from pauer tuning as soon as they see my dyno results.
note to vendors: treat your potential customers right, because they have friends !
this is a photo of the new turbo next to the old turbo;
and a side-by-side shot;
this is a video of the fully assembled turbo being blown by mouth on the hot side. it spins very easily;
http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...75225734&hl=en
components needed for a hassle-free plug-and-play turbo swap from pauer tuning, all are available from pauer tuning;
-the turbo itself
-modified oil line and related components (different sized holes/threads for the oil feed)
-modified water pipe and related components (different sized holes/threads for the water, and the stock water pipes will not clear the larger aftermarket compressor housing)
-aluminum plate for mounting gasket (aftermarket turbo does not fit perfectly over stock rubber o-ring seal)
additional component needed, this is NOT available from pauer tuning;
-if you are using the stock intake system like i am, you will need some type of mod to get the stock j-boot to fit the bigger 3" compressor inlet. i used a piece of pvc plumbing pipe with a 30-degree bend and a rubber no-hub coupler, which cost around $5 total at home depot. i would recommend the lindsey j-boot adapter, which is what i have ordered and will be switching to for a cleaner install;
http://tinyurl.com/2975ne
potential problems that may prevent true plug-and-play;
1) the plastic cover on the back of the alternator needs to be modified, as the location where the electrical wire enters the cover will prevent the larger inlet of the cold housing from clearing whatever intake adapter you connect to the turbo (see photo). this is a very easy mod and it would seem that any larger diameter (ie; bigger) turbo inlet would require this to be altered.
2) depending on the orientation of the cold side housing, the installer will possibly need to grind the top of the turbo compressor housing down about 1/8 inch to accommodate the bottom of the intake manifold (see photo). i had to do this to make mine fit. it was relatively easy to do this using a dremel with a grinding stone attached. you'll have to be careful not to get aluminum dust into critical areas on your motor, and wear a mask to prevent breathing aluminum dust.
3) depending on the orientation of the cold side housing, the installer will possibly need to grind down one of the bolts at the bottom of the turbo holding the cold housing to the center section (see photo), because this bolt may not clear the bottom of the turbo mount and prevent proper mounting. i was lucky and did not have to do this, but i have heard that some people just remove this one bolt and keep it removed to simplify installation.
some gripes;
1) it seems the metal clamps holding the hot side housing to the center section is plated with chrome or some other material, and this plating will flake off and peel after the turbo heat-cycles a few times. this isn't a big deal, but does make it appear as if the part is cheaply manufactured. i would recommend using non-plated clamps, or using a sander to remove the plating before installing if you don't want chrome flakes later. this isn't a huge deal but worth mentioning.
2) the center section exterior will rust when exposed to water. again, not a problem but worth mentioning.
some praise;
1) as far as i can tell, this is a substantially larger turbo than the stock k26/8 that comes with the turbo-s model, but still manages to spool exactly the same as the stock turbo. using a standalone wolf3d ems with custom boost control, i was able to achieve 1bar (14.5psi) of boost with this turbo by 2800rpm, which is identical to the stock k26/8 turbo. the difference is that this turbo will easily hold that boost to redline. even when i tried turning the boost up to 18psi, and then 21psi, this turbo will not run out of breath like the stock turbo does. i do not have the mods in place to support higher boost, so i haven't tried anything higher than 21psi, though i'm certain that it will easily hold at least 25psi to redline, as i've seen boost creep and had to turn my boost settings down.
2) transitional boost, which is the boost recovery phase between shifts, is something that is rarely discussed in turbo reviews but i feel is important. the transitional boost with this turbo is much faster than the stock turbo. this is something that you'll immediately feel and notice.
3) vic at pauer tuning is a nice guy and is eager to go out of his way to help you. customer service and after-sale support is so far the best i have ever had with any vendor at any price.
overall, i am happy with this turbo upgrade so far.
you can read my entire story that led to this turbo upgrade here;
https://rennlist.com/forums/showthre...8&page=1&pp=40
i will update this post with new information and dyno charts as soon as they become available.
the turbo upgrade i was looking for had to meet these very difficult qualifications;
1) fastest spool possible, must spool like the stock turbo-s turbocharger. i was not willing to sacrifice lag for power. i was looking for 18psi by 3krpm with no dropoff to redline.
2) be able to support 350whp.
3) be plug-and-play. i wasn't willing to jump through hoops and hunt down special nuts and bolts and clamps and adapters for a turbo swap.
4) the vendor must be willing to communicate with me about exactly what i was paying for. sadly, this dropped vitesse off the list as i wasn't able to get any detailed specs regarding their turbo for a meaningful comparison. i would love to see a back-to-back vitesse turbo review with dyno graphs.
after much research, debate, and discussions, i decided what i was looking for was a garrett dual ball bearing center cartridge with a 50-trim compressor and #8 hot side. fortunately for 951 owners, there are many porsche specialists to choose from when considering a turbo upgrade, and many more choices of turbochargers. unfortunately and understandably, most vendors will not tell you the exact specifications of their turbos for fear of copy-cat vendors stealing their designs. following is a list of the vendors i considered during my turbo hunt, and the reasons why i did not choose to go with them. they are not in any particular order.
vitesse stage2;
this was actually my original first choice. although i have heard great testimony regarding their turbochargers, i could get no technical information regarding what exactly i would be buying. this combined with no concrete before and after dyno graphs plus the extremely high price (they were by far the most expensive) made me choose to seek a different vendor. i believe if i'm paying premium for something, i should know exactly what i'm paying premium for.
http://www.vitesseracing.com/html/turbo.html
ultimate motorwerks;
this is a vendor local to me and i have heard great things about their 'zero clearance' turbos, but i have also heard that they need to be rebuilt often because they coat the inside of the compressor housing with some material to get the 'zero clearance'. i wanted more reliability and less maintenance so i looked elsewhere. there is also no technical information regarding these turbos.
http://www.ultimatemotorwerks.com/
innovate motorsports;
i sent an email but got no response. their website also does not contain any information regarding their turbo product(s).
http://imsmotorsports.com/
034 motorsport;
this is actually the least expensive vendor as far as listed price is concerned. the only concern i had was that they were unable to provide 951-specific support or advice so i had a feeling i would be on my own as far as special adapters, oil lines, and fittings were concerned. for the true do-it-yourselfer, this may be the most cost-effective route.
http://www.034motorsport.com/product...8f26063501ba33
john milledge engineering;
this is another vendor with a legendary reputation in the 951 world so i naturally sent him an email with my initial request. he replied to the first email stating that the group-a type turbo was no longer available and that my target goals were unattainable, then failed to reply to repeated emails asking for more information. i got the impression he was a difficult person to deal with and unwilling to work with customers.
or maybe i just got him during a bad week.http://www.jmengines.com/index.htm
lindsey racing;
what i love about lindsey racing is that they give you all of the information you might ever want regarding their products. what i don't love is that all of their turbos are oldskool journal+thrust bearings with crazy lag and that no ball bearing turbos are available. who cares if you're making 400hp if you have to wait until 5000rpm for full boost? dave should get with the times and stock some dual ball bearing turbos.
http://www.lindseyracing.com/mm5/mer...944TURBOSSUPER
pauer tuning;
vic at pauer tuning was not only very prompt to my initial emails, he was also forthcoming with information regarding turbochargers in general and why i should choose his product (or not). he was also willing to beat any competitor pricing and provide after-sale support and installation advice. throughout the entire initial exchange, i kept thinking 'now here's a vendor who really knows how to treat potential customers and is as excited about 951's as i am' so i chose to go with him.
http://www.pauertuning.com/turbos.htm
i should also mention that i have three local 951 friends who are also in the market for a turbo upgrade and they were all eagerly awaiting my research and legwork so they could copy my results and purchase. i didn't mention this to any of the vendors up front because i wanted to see how my single purchase went. by the time i placed my order, one other local 951 buddy also ordered the identical turbo from pauer tuning so vic got a double sale.
two other local 951 guys will be ordering their turbos from pauer tuning as soon as they see my dyno results.note to vendors: treat your potential customers right, because they have friends !
this is a photo of the new turbo next to the old turbo;
and a side-by-side shot;
this is a video of the fully assembled turbo being blown by mouth on the hot side. it spins very easily;
http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...75225734&hl=en
components needed for a hassle-free plug-and-play turbo swap from pauer tuning, all are available from pauer tuning;
-the turbo itself
-modified oil line and related components (different sized holes/threads for the oil feed)
-modified water pipe and related components (different sized holes/threads for the water, and the stock water pipes will not clear the larger aftermarket compressor housing)
-aluminum plate for mounting gasket (aftermarket turbo does not fit perfectly over stock rubber o-ring seal)
additional component needed, this is NOT available from pauer tuning;
-if you are using the stock intake system like i am, you will need some type of mod to get the stock j-boot to fit the bigger 3" compressor inlet. i used a piece of pvc plumbing pipe with a 30-degree bend and a rubber no-hub coupler, which cost around $5 total at home depot. i would recommend the lindsey j-boot adapter, which is what i have ordered and will be switching to for a cleaner install;
http://tinyurl.com/2975ne
potential problems that may prevent true plug-and-play;
1) the plastic cover on the back of the alternator needs to be modified, as the location where the electrical wire enters the cover will prevent the larger inlet of the cold housing from clearing whatever intake adapter you connect to the turbo (see photo). this is a very easy mod and it would seem that any larger diameter (ie; bigger) turbo inlet would require this to be altered.
2) depending on the orientation of the cold side housing, the installer will possibly need to grind the top of the turbo compressor housing down about 1/8 inch to accommodate the bottom of the intake manifold (see photo). i had to do this to make mine fit. it was relatively easy to do this using a dremel with a grinding stone attached. you'll have to be careful not to get aluminum dust into critical areas on your motor, and wear a mask to prevent breathing aluminum dust.
3) depending on the orientation of the cold side housing, the installer will possibly need to grind down one of the bolts at the bottom of the turbo holding the cold housing to the center section (see photo), because this bolt may not clear the bottom of the turbo mount and prevent proper mounting. i was lucky and did not have to do this, but i have heard that some people just remove this one bolt and keep it removed to simplify installation.
some gripes;
1) it seems the metal clamps holding the hot side housing to the center section is plated with chrome or some other material, and this plating will flake off and peel after the turbo heat-cycles a few times. this isn't a big deal, but does make it appear as if the part is cheaply manufactured. i would recommend using non-plated clamps, or using a sander to remove the plating before installing if you don't want chrome flakes later. this isn't a huge deal but worth mentioning.
2) the center section exterior will rust when exposed to water. again, not a problem but worth mentioning.
some praise;
1) as far as i can tell, this is a substantially larger turbo than the stock k26/8 that comes with the turbo-s model, but still manages to spool exactly the same as the stock turbo. using a standalone wolf3d ems with custom boost control, i was able to achieve 1bar (14.5psi) of boost with this turbo by 2800rpm, which is identical to the stock k26/8 turbo. the difference is that this turbo will easily hold that boost to redline. even when i tried turning the boost up to 18psi, and then 21psi, this turbo will not run out of breath like the stock turbo does. i do not have the mods in place to support higher boost, so i haven't tried anything higher than 21psi, though i'm certain that it will easily hold at least 25psi to redline, as i've seen boost creep and had to turn my boost settings down.
2) transitional boost, which is the boost recovery phase between shifts, is something that is rarely discussed in turbo reviews but i feel is important. the transitional boost with this turbo is much faster than the stock turbo. this is something that you'll immediately feel and notice.
3) vic at pauer tuning is a nice guy and is eager to go out of his way to help you. customer service and after-sale support is so far the best i have ever had with any vendor at any price.
overall, i am happy with this turbo upgrade so far.
you can read my entire story that led to this turbo upgrade here;
https://rennlist.com/forums/showthre...8&page=1&pp=40
i will update this post with new information and dyno charts as soon as they become available.
05-16-2007, 04:42 PM
#74
Banned
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: seattle, washington - usa
Posts: 1,822
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by A.Wayne
Based on this information , i thought you had already tried the turbo at 25 psi
05-16-2007, 05:11 PM
#75
Addict
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Originally Posted by Jeremy Himsel
You know this whole behind the scenes……..one tuner undercutting another thing is just getting so old and to be perfectly honest this is one of the few car boards I see this on. I read on board that have some of the most egotistical self centered maniacs that I’ve ever met and these things rarely ever come up. I guess this is just par for the course when it comes to a group of guys trying to make a living off of a 20 year limited production car the average college kid can afford. I’d hate to say it Nize but these types of posts are probably a long time coming and your just getting the ****ty end of it. Remember that your “tuner” bombarded others with the same types of questions in the past and you’re here expressing your pleasure with his products so however unnecessary it may be, it was coming.
This thread has gotten so far off topic it’s insane so I’ll add my few cents. As an owner of Vitesse products I know every aspect of my “stage 2” turbo. As part of a gentlemen’s agreement I have never repeated those to even my closest friends because the integrity of my word is more important that being a web board hero. If you can’t respect my integrity or agreements then quite frankly….**** Off (this wasn’t intended for any one in specific but more a representation of my attitude). Vic can vouch for that one as he inquired about the wheel sizes when I had it off the car as well and despite our close friendship, I kept it at bay. I did not know what the specs were until after I owned it and quite frankly I didn’t care what they were. What I really cared about was………
1. What RPM would I reach 15psi?
2. What Hp would it make?
3. What’s the upper limit of the turbo’s efficiency range for my particular application?
4. What kind of support or guarantee will I get that the product will perform as advertised?
5. Do you have any real world results that I can review?
To me, price is irrelevant. I just dropped 1600 on pistons I waited two years for and 1200 on rods that are probably overkill for my 3.0L application. When I select a turbo, price will be irrelevant as well. I just want whatever I purchase to perform to my expectations without having to look back and second guess myself. For me that was the beauty of the Vitesse products. I recently installed some products from another vendor that kind of pissed me off a bit because what they told me as far as fitment and “issues” during pre purchase turned out to be a whole different story post purchase and all of a sudden they were new issues they were sure they told me about. Had I know this before hand I would have still purchased the product but would have had a different approach and probably saved myself quite a bit of time.
As far as Vic’s turbo’s go, again I could care less what his wheel sizes are provided I wasn’t getting bull****ted. And while Vic and a number of other people have cried foul over the years for John and his customers for not posting intimate details of the products there will be quite a bit of pressure on them to live up to their values and post specifics as they demanded. Me personally, if he/they doesn’t then I can respect that but see I do see some hypocrisy in it but as always it never amazes me what people will do to make a couple hundred bucks. As a consumer, as long as questions 1, 2, 3, 4, & 5 are answered honestly and openly I don’t care what the specs are so the questions I have to you and/or Vic are…….
1. What RPM would I reach 15psi? (you’ve answered this and I like the results).
2. What HP would it make for my application?
3. What’s the upper limit of the turbo’s efficiency range for my particular application?
4. What kind of support or guarantee will I get that the product will perform as advertised?
5. Do you have any real world results that I can review?
At this point I find a bunch of things on Rennlist and these tuners funny and I’ll only speak about my area. Only a small group of AZ guys are on the list however I know of at least 40 local 944/51 guys that don’t have a clue who some of these tuners are. Additionally I never see Pauertuning, Powerhause, or any other “experts” we hear about on Rennlist campaigning their products at the local tracks each month. Not in the last couple years at least. Any one at a track in Atlanta, or Oklahoma ever see a 944/51 tuner campaigning their products? I bet you have and those are the guys I respect because they’re developing their products in a fashion I’m going to use them in and not sitting on a dyno or basing their products off of VE table they read somewhere or because they have a C. Bell book under their pillow. I find it too funny when local tuners have virtually zero support from their home town but are hero’s on a relatively anonymous web board. Lindsey racing is never on here but yet they manage to stay in business? How does that happen?
I haven’t paid much attention to Rennlist lately because it is becoming a joke now and I could really care less if it is around. For the most part it is 80% entertainment value, 18% communication value (PM’s), and 2% technical value. I’ve also been spending a lot of time playing with my “daily driver” and in my search for a TT kit, just about every tuner out there for it tells me 90% of the turbo specs and most have Dyno numbers but again that offers very little value to me. Ironically very few can tell me how it will perform on the track, about the ease of installation, or how it will perform as a daily driver (at least honestly) so my search continues but 800+ at the wheels with great street ability is the goal………
Nize, assuming your intent of this thread was honorable and I’m betting it was, I like the spool up characteristics and the price of your new turbo and hope to see more unbiased opinions. The fitment issues seem reasonable but I’m really looking forward to see what kind of power you get out of it. My experience with a BB turbo on a 951 was horrible because it made 400 RWHP but felt like a turbo diesel rabbit below 5K. I was recently in another 400 RWHP+ car with a huge Lindsey turbo and it was a raped ape after 4500 but pretty miserable below that which was a complete turnoff for me.
I really hope John D gets a hold of his vendor’s and well as new pseudo vendors who are poaching or there will be very few experienced people left around here.
This thread has gotten so far off topic it’s insane so I’ll add my few cents. As an owner of Vitesse products I know every aspect of my “stage 2” turbo. As part of a gentlemen’s agreement I have never repeated those to even my closest friends because the integrity of my word is more important that being a web board hero. If you can’t respect my integrity or agreements then quite frankly….**** Off (this wasn’t intended for any one in specific but more a representation of my attitude). Vic can vouch for that one as he inquired about the wheel sizes when I had it off the car as well and despite our close friendship, I kept it at bay. I did not know what the specs were until after I owned it and quite frankly I didn’t care what they were. What I really cared about was………
1. What RPM would I reach 15psi?
2. What Hp would it make?
3. What’s the upper limit of the turbo’s efficiency range for my particular application?
4. What kind of support or guarantee will I get that the product will perform as advertised?
5. Do you have any real world results that I can review?
To me, price is irrelevant. I just dropped 1600 on pistons I waited two years for and 1200 on rods that are probably overkill for my 3.0L application. When I select a turbo, price will be irrelevant as well. I just want whatever I purchase to perform to my expectations without having to look back and second guess myself. For me that was the beauty of the Vitesse products. I recently installed some products from another vendor that kind of pissed me off a bit because what they told me as far as fitment and “issues” during pre purchase turned out to be a whole different story post purchase and all of a sudden they were new issues they were sure they told me about. Had I know this before hand I would have still purchased the product but would have had a different approach and probably saved myself quite a bit of time.
As far as Vic’s turbo’s go, again I could care less what his wheel sizes are provided I wasn’t getting bull****ted. And while Vic and a number of other people have cried foul over the years for John and his customers for not posting intimate details of the products there will be quite a bit of pressure on them to live up to their values and post specifics as they demanded. Me personally, if he/they doesn’t then I can respect that but see I do see some hypocrisy in it but as always it never amazes me what people will do to make a couple hundred bucks. As a consumer, as long as questions 1, 2, 3, 4, & 5 are answered honestly and openly I don’t care what the specs are so the questions I have to you and/or Vic are…….
1. What RPM would I reach 15psi? (you’ve answered this and I like the results).
2. What HP would it make for my application?
3. What’s the upper limit of the turbo’s efficiency range for my particular application?
4. What kind of support or guarantee will I get that the product will perform as advertised?
5. Do you have any real world results that I can review?
At this point I find a bunch of things on Rennlist and these tuners funny and I’ll only speak about my area. Only a small group of AZ guys are on the list however I know of at least 40 local 944/51 guys that don’t have a clue who some of these tuners are. Additionally I never see Pauertuning, Powerhause, or any other “experts” we hear about on Rennlist campaigning their products at the local tracks each month. Not in the last couple years at least. Any one at a track in Atlanta, or Oklahoma ever see a 944/51 tuner campaigning their products? I bet you have and those are the guys I respect because they’re developing their products in a fashion I’m going to use them in and not sitting on a dyno or basing their products off of VE table they read somewhere or because they have a C. Bell book under their pillow. I find it too funny when local tuners have virtually zero support from their home town but are hero’s on a relatively anonymous web board. Lindsey racing is never on here but yet they manage to stay in business? How does that happen?
I haven’t paid much attention to Rennlist lately because it is becoming a joke now and I could really care less if it is around. For the most part it is 80% entertainment value, 18% communication value (PM’s), and 2% technical value. I’ve also been spending a lot of time playing with my “daily driver” and in my search for a TT kit, just about every tuner out there for it tells me 90% of the turbo specs and most have Dyno numbers but again that offers very little value to me. Ironically very few can tell me how it will perform on the track, about the ease of installation, or how it will perform as a daily driver (at least honestly) so my search continues but 800+ at the wheels with great street ability is the goal………
Nize, assuming your intent of this thread was honorable and I’m betting it was, I like the spool up characteristics and the price of your new turbo and hope to see more unbiased opinions. The fitment issues seem reasonable but I’m really looking forward to see what kind of power you get out of it. My experience with a BB turbo on a 951 was horrible because it made 400 RWHP but felt like a turbo diesel rabbit below 5K. I was recently in another 400 RWHP+ car with a huge Lindsey turbo and it was a raped ape after 4500 but pretty miserable below that which was a complete turnoff for me.
I really hope John D gets a hold of his vendor’s and well as new pseudo vendors who are poaching or there will be very few experienced people left around here.
A report has been sent regarding your below the belt comments directed toward me and/or my business.
Aside from your skewed views of our past dealings, if you've got helpful info that will contribute to this thread - bring it on. If not, keep any of your personal feelings about me or my company out of this. It just makes you look petty.
My apologies to Peter (nize) or any of those who may be following this thread for it's technical content.