rberry951

What would you consider a fair price for such a system? Where the user puts in a broad set of parameters and the EMS keeps everything tuned such as you speak of.

Regards,
Russell

DanG

A. Wayne, I must have missed the part where anyone was putting down the other systems. There's only been one poster in this entire thread with negative comments.

333pg333

Isn't this something based on autotuning? I still can't figure out with all the sensors available and the speed of processing why something as simple as setting the desired parameters can't be accurately tuned by the computer? If they can be made to adjust suspension, traction, brakes, fuel injection etc by monitoring 1000's of times per second why can't there be an electronic tuning system that can do the same...dependably? When we tune manually we rely on the sensors and we adjust accordingly, usually on a dyno which is not real world environment. If the same sensors are picking up and processing signals while we drive then they could adjust air, fuel, timing, boost etc accordingly. Or am I just dreaming here?

DFASTEST951

Russel. I have no idea. I just want the car to run at a perfect air fuel ratio, at any altitude, and maybe a few different fuel settings. I don't want to have to tune it after someone installs it. I don't know how to do it. I want to get in and drive. That's all. Once it's done, I want it to be done.

I wouldn't even do it except that from what I'm told, the factory electronics can't correctly run my motor anymore and with the upgrades I'd like to get, it will be even worse. It runs perfectly now but I have Autothority Chips and it runs so rich in the midrange, it goes off the graph. It feels perfect but I do feel it sluggish mid range.

After being on these boards, there's so much that can be done to our cars that I'm almost losing interest out of frustration on what to choose and how to go about getting things done reasonably.

anders44

afaik there is no autotune system anywhere near perfection that can do what you want. you need a good guy who knows the ems, and knows howto tune.

you can have a driveable car just by useing autotune a lot, but for that perfection for response etc, you need to do it manually.

333pg333

Hey Anders, that's the response I get when I mention this. It just seems to be something that wouldn't be too hard for someone that knows what they're doing?
I'm a bit like Joe on this. I don't know how to tune, although I will learn a bit when all the mod's go on soon, but this shouldn't be as hard as it's made out to be.
Patrick

anders44

I've talked to quite a few developers of different EMS who explained the complexity of the autotune, and what it's use and limitations are (won't say I understood it all)

autotune might get you 75-85% of the way there, but for that last response, hp, and perfection the systems isn't good enough.

you can probably do the basemap with this, and then get some dynotime and an expert. also just doing highway driving and logging is also useful.

333pg333

Yes I realize that it's not realistic at the moment, but I still can't see why not. I don't think it will be too far away from being a reality.

thingo

I think you will find that closed loop lambda control is a lot more accurate than 75-85%, and a/f is the variable, timing is established when the motor is tuned.

Chris White

Auto-tune is for air fuel only. Setting the air fuel is the easiest part of running an EMS system.
I always get a chuckle out of the Rennlist fixation on Air fuel ratios – its not that big an issue. Tuning the ignition curve is more complex – and more rewarding!!
As for some other things mentioned - sensors are sensors, most if not all EMS will work with just about any sensor out there.
While I like the DIY MS idea of building your own stuff from scratch – to offer one as a system commercially would be insane. If somebody is competent enough to assemble the MS and get it running they should also be astute enough to make it work. I could tell many stories about customer support…..

DanG

Not all Megasquirts are DIY/Build-IY. This beastie is going to win a few over at only ~$400...



100% pre-assembled, surface mount components. It couldn't be a true PNP as you need to either provide a full engine harness or the end user will have to re-wire, or run new wires for some things. But a 10-step color coded wiring job would still be pretty easy for most guys.

You can also buy the standard MS pre-assembled. I've ordered one from one of the vendors before and the soldering was amazing. It appeared to be done by a robot by looking at the joints. But he has them assembled by NASA cert'd techs instead. Professional pre-assembly runs about a $140 over the <$190 price of the unassembled kit.

333pg333

Chris I know I'm being a bit of a naive pipedreamer here, but based on the fact that whatever info that is being gathered by the sensors that give us the readings to do any tuning with, then can't they just talk to each other and continually tune the car as you drive. If the driver sets the boost at a desired level, can't the computers figure out the best tune to attain that level and adjust whatever it is that they need to, and we just drive? Are there sensors that can accurately read the octane of the gas in the tank and add this to the info that is being sent to the ems and it figure out what is the best timing, a/f, boost, knock retard etc for the motor?
That's the beauty of not knowing about these issues, you can ask stupid questions like mine. lol
PS did that crate get sent yet? I hope to have block back this week so we need crank soon.
Patrick.

DFASTEST951

Patrick and I are on the same EXACT page. I do understand that there would be a need to have different fuel settings but only a switch or **** on the dash. I just want to drive the damn thing and know that after I paid to have all the stuff done to my car that it will run perfectly. The technology has to be there. I know it. I just wish someone would get in touch with me and say, I can do this for you. It's this much and you'll have what you want. Period. Everyone I've talked to said they can do it, but...then there's the price. No one is near me so it has to be shipped so that makes it all the more important that when I get it back it has to run perfectly, and not just for a month or two before tweeking needs to be done.

Chris White

OK, since you asked – here is my two cents on the auto tune stuff.
Getting the air fuel mixture to work – you have a fairly wide range where the mixture is ‘OK’ – from 11:1 to just under 13:1 will produce good power without the risk of a lean failure. 12:1 to 12.5:1 is better – but not much difference in power output.
Timing, on the other hand, has to be pretty accurate – too much advance and the cylinder pressure peaks early causing detonation – engine expires, too little advance and the power goes away quickly and the EGTs go up fast.
The self tuning part? – to self tune you’re A/F mixture you have to have absolute faith that the O2 sensor is correct, and I don’t have that level of faith in any O2 sensor. I do trust a good wideband under controlled conditions but not as a full time mixture controller at full load. One hiccup and the ECU can be told to add a lot of fuel or pull a lot out. I have seen my share of melted wires / failed O2 sensors so that I just don’t want to trust full load running to them. Also – all O2 sensors suffer from heat shift and aging as well as contamination from leaded fuel and certain sealants. I set up my EMS stuff to use the O2 sensor in the loop up to about 5psi and then it runs on internal mapping.
As for the ignition side I do know of a product that can be used to set your timing ‘automatically’ - it cost about $15k. I wanted to get one at the PRI show but I just couldn’t justify it! Other than that setting your timing is part trial and error and ‘best guess’ based on experience. Set it safe and you are giving up HP, set it aggressively and you are risking toasting the engine.
Some folks feel that using the knock sensor to back off on the timing is OK, not me!
A sensor for fuel type/quality? Not that I know of.
Sorry - there is no easy answer to running a multifuel set up – there will always be some mixing of the two fuels in the tank so the tuning will not be ‘prefect’ for each type unless you completely drain the tank.

theedge

Theres flex fuel sensors, they just measure the percentage of ethanol in the fuel not the octane.