m42racer

I agree. Tune the engine properly the first time. Manually. Do not rely upon Knock detection to make up for poor mapping.

Get a good knock listening device and tune until you hear knock just starting. Then back off 2 degrees and go onto the next maping mark. For this who need to know of a good listening device, PM me and I will tell you. This is a fantastic tuning tool.

I have seen Ignition tuning done on a dyno many times and what i saw once really made sense. The timing value generates no knock noise. The Torque is acceptable. Take 2 degrees out and see if the Torque drops. If it doesn't, adding 2 more degrees will net no further Torque gains but will possibly generate knock.

Chris Prack

WTF are you talking about? Not everyone cares about dyno glory numbers.

Two recent Motec 951's made 515hp @ 1bar and 545 @ 1.3bar. The first has an aftermarket intake and exhaust, the second uses a factory untouched intake and manifolds. No knock sensor is necessary. Both of these cars run not just sprint races but enduros as well. They are race cars and get pounded on every time out.

Besides, who needs the extra weight???

BTW, we also made 1000+hp with a TT 3.6L engine for a prototype 993. Guess what? Two turbos, four cams, 24 valves, 12 injectors, 2 widebands and ZERO knock sensors. All with a Motec M880.

Chris Prack

EXACTLY!! Dude, you get it.

BC

I think (hope) he meant Motronic, which for some sounds very close to Motec.

As to this subject, VEMS has knock detection and timing pull. Not sure about boost reduction.

Rogue_Ant

Unless the Motec is running an LS1 swap or HUGE turbo 3.1DOHC... then how about a dyno sheet?



Rogue

Porschefile

Not to sound rude or anything but, how about taking a step back and simply listening and learning from those, like Chris White, that have been messing with aftermarket ems' for awhile and know what they are doing. You're doing a lot of speculating based on theory. How about looking at what works in real life. I constantly see you and several others here stating how it's so improbable to live with a non-knock controlled ems. Guess what? A majority of people in most car communities using aftermarket ems' are usually using units that don't have knock control. Go take a look at some race stuff, and you'll see a huge abundance of Motec's, Autronics, etc. Hmm, I wonder why that is? But the 951 has knock control stock, so they must ALL be wrong? Plenty of people in plenty of car communities get a long just fine without knock control. Reiterating what Chris said, a GOOD tune should be the primary focus. Safety measures like knock control are nice and all, but you're making a fuss about a non-issue. As far as the Wolf being able to maintain a safety boost mode, that's simple. I don't know of any current plug and play 951 aftermarket ems kit that offers it, but it's something that would be simple as hell to implement in ANY setup so there really isn't anything special about that. All you need is some sort of auxilliary input setup with the ems to activate a bleed valve/solenoid once a certain preset boost level is reached. Most aftermarket ems' have extra aux. inputs for features like that or variable valvetrain actuation, etc. The Wolf setup has a few neat features, but it's nothing ground breaking or particularly special IMO.

Anyone that thinks Motec sucks needs to convert their 951 to carbs since I'm sure they'd also believe it would make more power. Motec's can be such a monstrous pain in the MF'in @ss to tune with all of their in depth features, but when fully tuned and tuned right, I think a huge number of people here would be simply amazed at the difference in drivability. Believe me on that one. If someone can't understand why, leave the speculating to those that can.

evil 944t

remember, he never said at what rpm, Its possible. A well built race motor will pull these kind of numbers.

nize

i'm not doing any speculating, i'm using real-life examples and first-hand experience. are you? what system are you running in your car and how long have you been running it?

so far in your post you are speculating;
1) knock control is not necessary
2) boost control is easy to implement

i've found that most people who slam knock protection do so because they don't have it working properly on their cars, and use the 'if it's tuned you don't need it' excuse. that excuse doesn't work once you get a bad tank of gas. of course, track-only cars rarely, if ever, get bad gas so it's all fine and dandy for track-only solutions, not so for a daily-driven street solution.

if you're going to bring up the 'track-proven' argument, every 951 that's track-raced (and actually wins races) around the pacific northwest uses wolf3d and have been for over 10 years. can you say that for any other aftermarket ems on the market today? what does that tell you?

Geneqco

The Wolf 3D is the control ECU for an n/a 944 race series here...

So far as the Knock control issue... a couple of observations:

It appears from his posts that Chris White and others are assuming that knock contol is either being used to correct poor tuning or as a fine tuning device simiar to how an O2 operates in closed loop;

As pointed out by a couple of others, this is a poor way to approach things - peak power is typically a couple of degrees prior to knock and leaving it for the knock control device to constantly pull timing and/or boost is also not a safe approach.

However, nothing Nize has said has indicated this is his approach - in fact, he says he has properly tuned his car! He is simply using knock control to protect against issues that may arise in spite of a good tune... bad gas, excessive blow by etc.

A good knock control unit will detect knock before you or I would ever pick it up... special equipment is used when dyno tuning to detect knock early - this is not used by the average driver when just driving. The system Nize has also features a gauge to give him feedback on what is happening... if he is getting knock counts, this tells him - I better look into something.



Sorry, but I fail to see the downside to knock protection if used correctly. I don't think anybody is saying it is wrong to use a system without it, just expressing a preference for using a system with it.

Chris Prack

2.5l redline @ 7300rpm. Have dyno sheet. It is only on paper so I will have to get it, scan it and post. And yes it is a big turbo.

BTW, you have seen the motor before. It's posted in the "Trick 951" thread.

Chris Prack

Here is the second motor run on a chassis dyno after install in car. The blow off valve had too weak of a spring and above 5500rpm would open and bleed off boost so the torque trailed off. After my customer drove the car he didn't care that we could make more tq with a different valve. It was fast enough for him.

A.Wayne

So which is better , 1 or 2: count

But what if the count is not in the requency range of your sensor
how would you determine low frequency , from high, frequency or noise from the cam/ valve, clutch etc...

the point is an aftermarket generic sensor is a waste of time as the sensors and filtering system would have to be designed for that specific engine operation and frequency in order to tell this from this

Countless hrs would have to be spent on the dyno designing the filtering system and knock count frequency for it to be an effective tuning tool. It would be like using a narrowband O2 to adjust your fuel curve ,,,, it's better than nothing but in the end you are pissing in the wind ......and yes a 951 race motor will pull 500 bhp @ 1 bar .........

nize

here's an idea:

i've already mentioned at least three things that the wolf3d can do that other commercial standalone systems generally can't;

1) plug-and-play by simply swapping out the dme and klr, utilizing the stock wiring harness and all stock sensors
2) integrated knock protection by timing retard
3) second stage knock protection by pulling boost

instead of crying sour grapes, why don't all the other guys who are actually running other commercial standalone systems point out features that may be unique to those systems? i'm genuinely curious, as i've done my homework but i know i don't know everything about all the commercial systems available now.

this does not include megasquirt, which can be customized to do everything except wash your dishes.

A.Wayne

Nize
Unless the knocksystem was designed for the 951 as explained before , it is a nice feature to have , kinda like having closed loop via narrow band , I'm Positive if you are running it as you state you will have ,

1. Performance that will be unstable...
2. A car slower than what it is really capable off..

on the plus side ,

1. you will get protection from bad gas or octane which is lower than what it was tuned for .

2. protection from bad injectors , over boost etc...

Both situation can be compensated for by a knowledgeable user , but yes for an average person not keen to such stuff , it is safer with the knock setup...

If this was your top priority then you have the system for you , but you seem more interested in a direct comparision of wolf vs the rest as oppose to what is technically better and why and since you are the person tuning the car , the best system is the one you are most comfortable with , does,nt make it the best , just the best for you ...

Duke

Number 1 is a real strong point towards the Wolf and I wished there were more PnP solutions. Building a complete new harness is a nice option, but it would be nice not to have it as a must to switch to a standalone.

Number 2 and 3 is configurable with any standalone that has a few aux inputs/outputs.

I spec'ed out a simple solution using DTA P8Pro and PLX R500 that altered timing and a/f-ratios using knock and EGT inputs.
If knock was detected timing was retarded. But retarded timing rises EGT and is potentially almost equally dangerous. So when the EGT got higher and higher the a/f ratios got richen up.

I did not include a boost change in that setup but it would have been possible.

That setup was meant for myself but I ended up with a simplified approach.