SimonK

I drove 2005 M3 last week. Well a great car. The thing is that suspension wise it feels so different to our cars. I don’t know how to describe it actually but to use words such as; more modern, suppler, well, the M3 just feels very different. But, what I am asking here is, is it better, is it not as good, is it similar or is it the same performance wise or is it just the feel that is different? I have factory re-serviced yellow Konis and sport pack M030 all way round - so all top notch, no tired componets, but I can’t stop wondering why is it, that our cars feel so different comparing to modern counterparts? Did suspension progress that much in the last 10 years and is it better? But our cars (with the optional M030 pack) are the weapons of choice for the track, so I am wondering what is this feel all about? Let’s discuss…

Robby

Yes, the M3 suspension is THAT MUCH BETTER!!! Even the e36 M3 blows our's away- no comparison- Danno & I have talked about this a dozen times- the multi-link is a big thing- not to mention, the chassis of the e36M3 is MUCH MUCH stiffer- it was considered one of, if not the best, chassis made for several years. Danno has always wanted to add a multi-link to one of our cars- at least a multi-link rear- the Supra TT would be an excellent one- even a 928GT(S) would be cool. the multi-link allows the car to do several things that our non-multi-link does not. For one thing, it allows the wheel to move up & down w/out changing alinnment- so, over bumps, etc, the car is not as likely to get squirrly. Also, it allows one to stiffen up the suspension, while still making it very compliant. That's what impressed me so much about the e36M3- I rode in a friend's right after he bought it- had H&R CO's on it, almost dbl stock stiffness & it went over bumps as if they didn't even exist. The car was stiff & flat in corners, but surface irregularities did not phase it. I've never been the same. you'll never get the same from a 951, but you can get close. Our suspension design is REALLY REALLY old- it's been around since the 70's. You can improve it w/the best components, etc, but it'll never quite be as good. And i've been talking about the e36 M3- much less the e46... Unfortunately, the e46 got pretty heavy- the e36 is only ~175lbs heavier than a 951, but the e46 adds several hundred more...

Several probs w/the BMW suspension are- it's takes more to get them really stiff, as there are more bushings, etc, involved. From what I understand, alignments are more expensive- I could be wrong on this though... Multi-link is supposed to help at the track, but from what it does, it seems to me it wouldn't really do much more there; on the street is where you'd see the biggest difs, but I'm no expert there...

968turbos2

i have to agree w/Robby on this one. There even seems to be a slight 'feel' difference between a 968 and a 944 even though there should not be. Center of Gravity diff would also make it feel different. BMW suspension is really ideal when tuned right. I have an E34 M5 and once i worked out all the quirks I got a chance to feel how it was meant to be and all I can say is 'Dam*'.

I love my 9xx for sure but for different reasons.

special tool

This is true....after all, it supposed to be "the best handling PORSCHE of all time".
But look at the competition
A 930?????? that pulls the front wheels off the ground when you accelerate SO THAT YOU CAN BARELY STEER IT (those of you driven a modded 930 understand)

A good BMW is hard to beat. Too bad they STILL don't know what torque is.

JET951

we did a Porsche vs BMW track day at oran park last year. we beat most of the BMWs, but it always come down to the driver of course.

http://www.natsoft.com.au/cgi-bin/re...2006.OPGP.S3.Y

333pg333

Simon, to address your concerns there are things you can do to get 'near' the properties that you noticed in the BM. Being in the UK, I'm sure you've got onto some of the sites there and have heard of KW suspension. It's the PGB forum that I originally heard of the brand. Then I found out about some of the 968 sites where handling may be even more paramount as they don't have forced induction to make up speed on the straights etc. Anyway I wound up getting the 2nd from the top in their suspension systems and this should be virtually undriveable on city streets according to the spec's on paper. 616lb/in f and 708 lb/in r on mostly full solid bushings, with adj camber plates, and mostly on R-spec rubber. Wrong. This now drives better on the street than it did with the same setup as you currently have which also had been fully rebuilt. Plus WAY superior on the track. So yes technology has made major leaps in the suspension world and you can be the beneficiary too, just break out the wallet and spend some cash. You will be amazed no doubt!
PS Sean, I've almost caught you on the 'Post count' heheheheh

thingo

There isn't a lot of torsional rigidity in the 944, that's the biggest improvement they made with the 968.The 968 handles a lot better, but even it is not that stiff.

special tool

The track that you did the test on was smoothe, right?

azmi951

Multilink suspension or 5 link (5 locating bars for the spindle/upright) can be designed to achieve just about any deisired effect you want in suspension. bump steer, camber and caster gain, scrub, roll center, instant center.... are all variables that can be designed in. Problems are that it is kind of a large package that needs room to locate, is a monster to design from scratch and from a production stand point it needs very tight tollerances, is MUCH more expensive to manufacture and takes more time to assemble. This is fine for upper level cars, but do not expect to see a miltilink in too many run of the mill cars. Remember what our cars were derived from...a VW, our cars are an evolution and not a scratch built platform. When you l.ook at a 924 from the late 70's there is only minor differences in the suspension design to optimize the package. I think they did an outstanding job with the chassis in the 951 given what they had to work with.
Looking at any of the newer 911/986 you can see that suspension has devloped that much in 30+ years.

SimonK

However at high speed run at 150mph and into a corner, M3 did not feel as sure footed as my 944TS. My car felt much more sucked to the ground and if I may say it felt better. I suppose that's due to the wings and low height?

So what do you replace the yellow KONIS with to make it better. I would guess for the street there is nothing? How good are actually the fronts? I guess the rears are the weak link?

ivai

This is a little disappointing.. I have a friend who just bought an '01 e46 m3, and we'll both be going to the track in May.. I was hoping to totally own him with the vitesse stage II kit I'll have installed, but now I'm not so sure.. I guess I'll see.

P.S. I have 250# springs up front and 29mm torsion bars in the rear.. Yes I know that sounds unbalanced, I'm working on it.

mein51

Absolutely nothing beats an experienced driver though. Having driven quite a few bimmer cars, some street and some race, at various tracks I'll say that bimmers are easier to drive out of the box. Porsches however seem to excel once the driver learns how to eploit their cars (ex: a really good 911 driver).
The e46 m3 is a pig and has poor stock brakes - hunt for him in braking zones and high momentum turns.

JET951

i have modified Konis with double adjustment, bump and rebound and turbo cup springs on the front with 968 CS rear shocks and springs. with m030 swaybars. car seems pretty balanced but still has a little too much roll. oran park is a funny track, it has a bit of everything, quite hilly, and not much of a straight, probably 220km/h straight, the first half of the curcuit is really off camber turns, and the second section is high speed on camber bumpin off ripple strips. this is where i make up most of my time. oh and no real run off, probably 50m on most turns

333pg333

What do you need run off for Sean? Do you mean that some people spin off on cold tyres or something. heheheheheh Actually now that you mention it I seem to remember doing this too(before the new KW's)...and Rod too. Hmm lucky there's runoff!

333pg333

Yes Simon there's plenty of things you can do. Get some KW's or Leda's both available in GB. They will make something that will transform your car...for the street if that's all you want.