Water Injection/Nitrous/Drag Racing Etc
#1
Water Injection/Nitrous/Drag Racing Etc
To start off, I have been doing the most dangerous thing possible. I have been thinking. Although there might be some flaming, it is not my intent to start a flame war, but rather my rambling and trying to understand the 951 owners.
I have been kicking around the idea of adding water injection and/or nitrous to my 951 (partly because I have a nitrous kit in the garage taking up space and I am tired of moving it around the garage for the last 5 or so years). The water injection has cross my mind as a “safety” item. So as I was thinking (again a bad thing) I did searches of Rennlist on these topics.
It seems that I was able to make a few observations.
1) In general members on the board are opposed to water injection as a band-aid and only good for drag racing.
2) Many people talk about how bad nitrous is and that it doesn’t belong on 951 (or P-car for that matter) yet have no experience with nitrous personally. They just repeat hearsay and stories.
3) If I want to drag race, I should buy a mustang or camaro.
It seems that many people have a bias against drag racing, yet are trying to make dyno queens out of 951s. Really think about this.
A 951 doesn’t need more power for most road race courses with most drivers. It is faster than most peoples abilities. I have a friend with an Esprit and here the same thing. “Its road racing car, not a drag race car” followed by “the magazine say its 12 second ¼ mile car”. Let me be honest here. I have owned the 951 for a while and had a 944 before that. I would honestly say that on many road race courses I could drive the 944 faster because of less power to get into trouble with. I got the 951 because I wanted more power to go fast in a straight line.
I hear the 951 (and other euro cars) excuses that they can’t drag race because the car isn’t designed for it. That makes no sense to me. Tell me that a Honda Civic (or any FWD car) is designed for drag racing more than a 951. A car with good weight on the back wheels makes for decent launches. Now, I will admit there are weaknesses in the 951 drivetrain design and probably would avoid running MT E/T tires on a 951 because I am not convinced the transaxle can take that amount of shock, but radials I have no problem with running. Yes, re-gearing a 951 is expensive, but I am not putting expense into the equation. ANY race car is expensive. Yes, it even takes a good amount of money to make a Civic fast.
The other comment I hear is “I won’t drag race because I will break the flux capacitor”. I hear this from the 951 guys just as I hear it from the Esprit guys I know (my friend tells me his car is faster but wont race unless I buy him a new transmission). I saw a post on another board for local racing of a 951 owner calling out the fastest 4 cylinder in the city he lives to race him. He was claiming a 12.5 quarter mile based upon “predictions”. Yet when they said they had tried to get him to race he had excuses. His final excuse when they wanted to race him was that 951 clutches cost too much. (If you are reading this, you are in COS and this sounds familiar, you should back up your smack talking and race the guy..on a track of coarse)
To be driving a 951 (or other euro) and then to wa-wa about parts cost as an excuse no to race when you start the flame war. Do people really think that road racing is easy on a car and that parts won’t get damaged? For the most part, I think road racing has more damage potential than drag racing.
So, back to my thought. Why are 951 (and in general euro owners) so anti-drag racing? Why are people here so opposed to modifications that are for short power bursts (i.e. nitrous and water injection)? Why do 951 owners like high dyno numbers so well if they won’t drag the car?
I guess to end, yes, if I want to go drag racing, dollar for dollar a Mustang is a better deal than a 951, however, I have too many cars and the wife won’t let me have a Mustang. Even if I didn’t have a 951, the wife wouldn’t let me have a Mustang because she says that they are little boys cars and in general hates them (same for camaros and not much more love for vettes). In fact, she hates them so much that when I had a Mustang, I wasn’t allowed to keep it at the house. Since I couldn’t do anything with the car because of the wife, I sold it. I still have a 5.0 and other mustang parts hanging around though. I think that one day she will give in and I can ADD a Mustang (yeah right, I can just keep fooling myself). Therefore, if I want to drag race, I need to do it in my 951. I need my fix of drag racing every once in a while. I am American after all.
And finally, how did the name “drag race” ever come about? Was it some guys in skirts and lipstick out racing one night and someone saw them coining the phrase? See, I really shouldn’t think.
-Dana
I have been kicking around the idea of adding water injection and/or nitrous to my 951 (partly because I have a nitrous kit in the garage taking up space and I am tired of moving it around the garage for the last 5 or so years). The water injection has cross my mind as a “safety” item. So as I was thinking (again a bad thing) I did searches of Rennlist on these topics.
It seems that I was able to make a few observations.
1) In general members on the board are opposed to water injection as a band-aid and only good for drag racing.
2) Many people talk about how bad nitrous is and that it doesn’t belong on 951 (or P-car for that matter) yet have no experience with nitrous personally. They just repeat hearsay and stories.
3) If I want to drag race, I should buy a mustang or camaro.
It seems that many people have a bias against drag racing, yet are trying to make dyno queens out of 951s. Really think about this.
A 951 doesn’t need more power for most road race courses with most drivers. It is faster than most peoples abilities. I have a friend with an Esprit and here the same thing. “Its road racing car, not a drag race car” followed by “the magazine say its 12 second ¼ mile car”. Let me be honest here. I have owned the 951 for a while and had a 944 before that. I would honestly say that on many road race courses I could drive the 944 faster because of less power to get into trouble with. I got the 951 because I wanted more power to go fast in a straight line.
I hear the 951 (and other euro cars) excuses that they can’t drag race because the car isn’t designed for it. That makes no sense to me. Tell me that a Honda Civic (or any FWD car) is designed for drag racing more than a 951. A car with good weight on the back wheels makes for decent launches. Now, I will admit there are weaknesses in the 951 drivetrain design and probably would avoid running MT E/T tires on a 951 because I am not convinced the transaxle can take that amount of shock, but radials I have no problem with running. Yes, re-gearing a 951 is expensive, but I am not putting expense into the equation. ANY race car is expensive. Yes, it even takes a good amount of money to make a Civic fast.
The other comment I hear is “I won’t drag race because I will break the flux capacitor”. I hear this from the 951 guys just as I hear it from the Esprit guys I know (my friend tells me his car is faster but wont race unless I buy him a new transmission). I saw a post on another board for local racing of a 951 owner calling out the fastest 4 cylinder in the city he lives to race him. He was claiming a 12.5 quarter mile based upon “predictions”. Yet when they said they had tried to get him to race he had excuses. His final excuse when they wanted to race him was that 951 clutches cost too much. (If you are reading this, you are in COS and this sounds familiar, you should back up your smack talking and race the guy..on a track of coarse)
To be driving a 951 (or other euro) and then to wa-wa about parts cost as an excuse no to race when you start the flame war. Do people really think that road racing is easy on a car and that parts won’t get damaged? For the most part, I think road racing has more damage potential than drag racing.
So, back to my thought. Why are 951 (and in general euro owners) so anti-drag racing? Why are people here so opposed to modifications that are for short power bursts (i.e. nitrous and water injection)? Why do 951 owners like high dyno numbers so well if they won’t drag the car?
I guess to end, yes, if I want to go drag racing, dollar for dollar a Mustang is a better deal than a 951, however, I have too many cars and the wife won’t let me have a Mustang. Even if I didn’t have a 951, the wife wouldn’t let me have a Mustang because she says that they are little boys cars and in general hates them (same for camaros and not much more love for vettes). In fact, she hates them so much that when I had a Mustang, I wasn’t allowed to keep it at the house. Since I couldn’t do anything with the car because of the wife, I sold it. I still have a 5.0 and other mustang parts hanging around though. I think that one day she will give in and I can ADD a Mustang (yeah right, I can just keep fooling myself). Therefore, if I want to drag race, I need to do it in my 951. I need my fix of drag racing every once in a while. I am American after all.
And finally, how did the name “drag race” ever come about? Was it some guys in skirts and lipstick out racing one night and someone saw them coining the phrase? See, I really shouldn’t think.
-Dana
#2
That Guy
Rennlist Member
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To start off i think adding water injection would be a good plus for drag racing or racing in general. Nitrous i am Opposed to because it puts a lot of stress on motor and if you over spray BOOM there goes your motor . The 944 turbo is not the best drag car because it gets it main power half way through the rpm range. Which in turn gives you a slow start. dragging a 2.5 liter turbo is also rough on the motor and unless you have the skills and money to rebuild multiple times i recommend keeping it as a track/autocross/street car
One thing i recommend doing is setting up a rail on the intercooler that sprays Co2 or water and that will lower air temps ALLOT.
-Ians 2 cents
One thing i recommend doing is setting up a rail on the intercooler that sprays Co2 or water and that will lower air temps ALLOT.
-Ians 2 cents
#3
Ian,
Any data on how much water spray on the IC lowers temps?
I don't recall exactly, but when I put thermocouples in my IC, I seem to remember that incoming air temp on the IC was 300C and out temp was around 150C. Those number may be off as it was a while ago that I did that. The numbers may have been in F too. I forgot which Thermocouple reader i used. It was a long time ago i did that. I will have to do that again.
-Dana
Any data on how much water spray on the IC lowers temps?
I don't recall exactly, but when I put thermocouples in my IC, I seem to remember that incoming air temp on the IC was 300C and out temp was around 150C. Those number may be off as it was a while ago that I did that. The numbers may have been in F too. I forgot which Thermocouple reader i used. It was a long time ago i did that. I will have to do that again.
-Dana
#4
That Guy
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
well doing Jimbos dyno on tuesday he did one run right after i sprayed water on ic pipes, ic, and intake manifold... He did that run and got like 330, he did one run right after that with out me spraying down his motor and he got like 320. That was room temp water emagine co2 coming out at 10* and freezing onto the metal
#5
Race Director
Dana, with my partition CRAP, I get intake temps below ambient on cruise, and around 28C (10 above ambient) .. Have you looked at the CryO2 intake? I WILL be installing water ijection to run more advanced timing and 20psi on pump gas... its my next project after I finished wasted spark and evaluate the SR20 ITB intake.
#7
I personally would love to see a Nitrous injected 951 expecially if its got a decent mod list. Its your 951 do as you please. I aint gonna flame unless I see ungoldy wings and Type R stickers.
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#9
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yea you can destroy a motor if you over shoot nitrous... but you can do the same if you, yep, you guessed it, overboosted. I don't like that excuse. of course you can destroy a motor, but with the right tuning and components, you probably wont, just like with boost.
That aside, I dont like nitrous. Reasons my own, and being just that, I definetly would not give you advice about it. I would welcome results if you decide to go for it. I'm just not going to do it on my car.
I'm not sure, but my theory is that a rear transaxle car with the torque tube, and tranny mounted basically by being hung from the top, is not going to accept that kind of punishment for too long. Let us know if you break things!
~Eyal
That aside, I dont like nitrous. Reasons my own, and being just that, I definetly would not give you advice about it. I would welcome results if you decide to go for it. I'm just not going to do it on my car.
I'm not sure, but my theory is that a rear transaxle car with the torque tube, and tranny mounted basically by being hung from the top, is not going to accept that kind of punishment for too long. Let us know if you break things!
~Eyal
#11
Go for it... I've always hated seeing things like "these cars were not designed for dragging" or one of my personal favorites "our cars are slow off the line, but, at higher speeds they will really kick-***...." the truth is, these cars accelerate EXACTLY how they should up high, when compared to down low- most drag racers can judge 1/4 mile times by the first 60feet- well, our cars work that way to some extent too- sure, there are some variables, here, but, consider: a Turbo S runs 0-60 in 5.5 & the 1/4 mile in 14.2 & 0-120 @ 22.1.... An E36 M3 (96 up) runs 0-60 in 5.5 & the 1/4 in ~14.0 & 0-120 in ~20.5 seconds... would have to dig around for exact data, but, have never seen tests for 951's for 0-130 but have seen ~25.0 for M3's... they DO have closer gearing (one of my biggest gripes about E36's except for their interiors) & this helps, but, it's funny.... they get off the line to 60mph in exactly the same amount of time & are still neck & neck ~1/4 mile, although the M3 has started to pull ahead slightly. By 120, the M3 should be out in front, only to be passed again when it runs out of gear ~145 or so.... Anyway, these cars SEEM faster on the freeways, but, they accelerate just like they should- there will be a slight variance, obvisouly, otherewise any car that runs faster to 60mph will run faster all the way up, but, that is usually how it is, to some extent anyway.... And the comparison to dragging FWD Civics, etc, is spot-on.... The 951 is definately better for it than those cars IMO.... maybe more costly to mess up, but....
#13
As far as the comments about nitrous blwoing engines up, I don't really think that its any worse than lots of boost. I ran nitrous on a GSXR11 for 7 years. I probably had 100 passes on the bike with nitrous (probably 350 passes in that time total) and never hurt a thing (engine wise). I will admit that I went through some rear tires (could it be the burnouts to heat the tire up?), a few chains, two clutches, and the rest was normal maintnenance. Out of 1052cc I making around 150-200rwhp (as I got bored it went from 156rwhp to near 200 as I kept putting in bigger jets).
Daniel,
On you dyno graph, what was the CF? I am just curious because you are at high altitude and so the dynos almost always report corrected hp. So what that means, is that with a typical correction factor (around 1.22 for your area), you were actually only making 280rwhp (or thereabouts). Take that number and assume a loaded weight of 3100lbs and you "should" run a 1/4 mile at around 12.9@105 at altitude. That said, if you don't have any (lots of) experience with drag racing, I will guess you will run mid 14s at around 103-105 on a good day. June 12th is the Sprt Compact nationals. You should run in that and try for the quick 16 street cars.
-Dana
Daniel,
On you dyno graph, what was the CF? I am just curious because you are at high altitude and so the dynos almost always report corrected hp. So what that means, is that with a typical correction factor (around 1.22 for your area), you were actually only making 280rwhp (or thereabouts). Take that number and assume a loaded weight of 3100lbs and you "should" run a 1/4 mile at around 12.9@105 at altitude. That said, if you don't have any (lots of) experience with drag racing, I will guess you will run mid 14s at around 103-105 on a good day. June 12th is the Sprt Compact nationals. You should run in that and try for the quick 16 street cars.
-Dana
#14
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"1) In general members on the board are opposed to water injection as a band-aid and only good for drag racing."
Unfortuneatly, a common misconception, posted by mayn that have not ran WI and/or not even read about it.
There are a few in here running it and they are VERY please and had gains far more then jsut a "band aid"
Unfortuneatly, a common misconception, posted by mayn that have not ran WI and/or not even read about it.
There are a few in here running it and they are VERY please and had gains far more then jsut a "band aid"
#15
Originally Posted by DanaT
Daniel,
On you dyno graph, what was the CF? I am just curious because you are at high altitude and so the dynos almost always report corrected hp. So what that means, is that with a typical correction factor (around 1.22 for your area), you were actually only making 280rwhp (or thereabouts). Take that number and assume a loaded weight of 3100lbs and you "should" run a 1/4 mile at around 12.9@105 at altitude. That said, if you don't have any (lots of) experience with drag racing, I will guess you will run mid 14s at around 103-105 on a good day. June 12th is the Sprt Compact nationals. You should run in that and try for the quick 16 street cars.
-Dana
On you dyno graph, what was the CF? I am just curious because you are at high altitude and so the dynos almost always report corrected hp. So what that means, is that with a typical correction factor (around 1.22 for your area), you were actually only making 280rwhp (or thereabouts). Take that number and assume a loaded weight of 3100lbs and you "should" run a 1/4 mile at around 12.9@105 at altitude. That said, if you don't have any (lots of) experience with drag racing, I will guess you will run mid 14s at around 103-105 on a good day. June 12th is the Sprt Compact nationals. You should run in that and try for the quick 16 street cars.
-Dana
Update
just got off the phone with the dyno company and they said this is already calcuated for our altitude so i actually would be making more power at sea level.
Last edited by daniel951; 03-31-2005 at 04:35 PM.