618.2whp @ 17psi
10-22-2017, 10:51 PM
#136
Three Wheelin'
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As for the seasoning of the BMW F1 M12 blocks, those were cast iron, where imperfections in the casting are at a smaller degree of worry compared to a cast aluminum block. If I remember right, the M10 based engines were closed deck as well. Plus, those engines used, what, up to 80% toluene to achieve their amazing numbers, so I wouldn't use that as a legitimate base for 4 cylinder high horsepower applications (overall stroke was far less too, and engines were extremely peaky).
You would be surprised what vibrations occur and are shown when using the NVH app or a picoscope on a stock NA without balance shafts. Back when I was dealing wtih BMW straight sixes, we ran into 3rd order vibrations when revving past 7100RPM, sometimes bad enough to snap bolts, loosen bolts, and more importantly snapping/spinning off the oil pump nut. That was no fun at all.
A billet block might be the answer, since the cast aluminum might age worse, not better in terms of heat cycling and vibrations, and you are really crossing your fingers for a perfect casting versus what would be a slight imperfection/air bubble or two which would easily pass inspection due to the range of stock horsepower.
Either way, I wish you and Patrick the best of luck. Pioneering in this field and build can definitely be exhausting, not only to the pocket book, but also emotionally. Best wishes.
10-22-2017, 10:52 PM
#137
Pro
Nope, Im Ilieski. Im close with Paul K though. You may or may have not seen me, i was around hit pits quite a bit giving him a hand when need be. If you saw the DIY brake booster shield, that was my handy work 
LOL
No prices. Im assuming ETA will be before WTAC 2019. and most likely early spindles. But im sure they'll do Late also.
Usually they'll be built to order anyway so you can specify dimensions ect and surely they can do it.
LOL No prices. Im assuming ETA will be before WTAC 2019. and most likely early spindles. But im sure they'll do Late also.
Usually they'll be built to order anyway so you can specify dimensions ect and surely they can do it.
2019 is a fair while away...I think I might do a big black (or equivalent) upgrade in the meantime, with cayenne rotors. Seems quite cost effective.
10-22-2017, 11:11 PM
#138
Professional Hoon
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Now you do!
I'm hoping they're cheaper than the 993 upgrade as they're quite pricey. Or the same as you'll be getting better bang for buck. Brypar discs are very nice too.
10-23-2017, 12:04 AM
#139
Pro
Then there's these big red copies...I'm a bit uneasy about using knock off brakes, but they would be a great deal if they were of good quality.
https://www.paragon-products.com/Por...0.0567.004.htm (cheaper from other UK vendors)
Or for the same price, I could get used genuine 928 S4 (m030) calipers, and run those with cayenne discs.
And another option would be equivalent sized calipers from other cars. Evo 7/8/9 brembos run the same pad as the 933 big reds, albeit with a different backing plate. Plenty of those calipers on gumtree for under 1k...but they would require a custom set of adapters. And they also have 40/46mm pistons which are a lot larger than the 36/44mm 933 pistons, so could result in a increased brake pedal distance.
Sorry for the off topic rambling in your thread Patrick ;-)
10-23-2017, 12:09 AM
#140
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Yeah the genuine 993 calipers are insanely expensive, unless you happen to come across a good 2nd hand deal. The cayenne rotors are great bang for buck though, only $200 AUD for a pair of quality Bosch 330mm rotors. Wouldn't be as light as some nice two piece Brypars though.
Then there's these big red copies...I'm a bit uneasy about using knock off brakes, but they would be a great deal if they were of good quality.
https://www.paragon-products.com/Por...0.0567.004.htm (cheaper from other UK vendors)
Or for the same price, I could get used genuine 928 S4 (m030) calipers, and run those with cayenne discs.
And another option would be equivalent sized calipers from other cars. Evo 7/8/9 brembos run the same pad as the 933 big reds, albeit with a different backing plate. Plenty of those calipers on gumtree for under 1k...but they would require a custom set of adapters. And they also have 40/46mm pistons which are a lot larger than the 36/44mm 933 pistons, so could result in a increased brake pedal distance.
Sorry for the off topic rambling in your thread Patrick ;-)
Then there's these big red copies...I'm a bit uneasy about using knock off brakes, but they would be a great deal if they were of good quality.
https://www.paragon-products.com/Por...0.0567.004.htm (cheaper from other UK vendors)
Or for the same price, I could get used genuine 928 S4 (m030) calipers, and run those with cayenne discs.
And another option would be equivalent sized calipers from other cars. Evo 7/8/9 brembos run the same pad as the 933 big reds, albeit with a different backing plate. Plenty of those calipers on gumtree for under 1k...but they would require a custom set of adapters. And they also have 40/46mm pistons which are a lot larger than the 36/44mm 933 pistons, so could result in a increased brake pedal distance.
Sorry for the off topic rambling in your thread Patrick ;-)
Those Dansk ones are pretty cheap! I'll try get a price now.
10-23-2017, 06:32 AM
#141
Nordschleife Master
It was heartbreaking seeing this unfold first hand and really sorry it was not something that could have been fixed by some long hours in the shop with a few extra hands from Sweden.
You got a great package and your car is beautifully fabricated and very well put together. And obviously the engine package works extremely well in terms of power and powerband!
A new block and you will be back!
See you guys next year
You got a great package and your car is beautifully fabricated and very well put together. And obviously the engine package works extremely well in terms of power and powerband!
A new block and you will be back!
See you guys next year
10-23-2017, 01:33 PM
#142
Rainman
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
that's all good info, but what size throttle body should it run?
welcome back...
If everything was buttoned up and squared away, I would look towards half and second order vibrations, especially spinning the motor as quickly as y'all are doing. Also, I noticed a pinned girdle, which may or may not have added a weak point in the block elsewhere.
As for the seasoning of the BMW F1 M12 blocks, those were cast iron, where imperfections in the casting are at a smaller degree of worry compared to a cast aluminum block. If I remember right, the M10 based engines were closed deck as well. Plus, those engines used, what, up to 80% toluene to achieve their amazing numbers, so I wouldn't use that as a legitimate base for 4 cylinder high horsepower applications (overall stroke was far less too, and engines were extremely peaky).
You would be surprised what vibrations occur and are shown when using the NVH app or a picoscope on a stock NA without balance shafts. Back when I was dealing wtih BMW straight sixes, we ran into 3rd order vibrations when revving past 7100RPM, sometimes bad enough to snap bolts, loosen bolts, and more importantly snapping/spinning off the oil pump nut. That was no fun at all.
A billet block might be the answer, since the cast aluminum might age worse, not better in terms of heat cycling and vibrations, and you are really crossing your fingers for a perfect casting versus what would be a slight imperfection/air bubble or two which would easily pass inspection due to the range of stock horsepower.
Either way, I wish you and Patrick the best of luck. Pioneering in this field and build can definitely be exhausting, not only to the pocket book, but also emotionally. Best wishes.
As for the seasoning of the BMW F1 M12 blocks, those were cast iron, where imperfections in the casting are at a smaller degree of worry compared to a cast aluminum block. If I remember right, the M10 based engines were closed deck as well. Plus, those engines used, what, up to 80% toluene to achieve their amazing numbers, so I wouldn't use that as a legitimate base for 4 cylinder high horsepower applications (overall stroke was far less too, and engines were extremely peaky).
You would be surprised what vibrations occur and are shown when using the NVH app or a picoscope on a stock NA without balance shafts. Back when I was dealing wtih BMW straight sixes, we ran into 3rd order vibrations when revving past 7100RPM, sometimes bad enough to snap bolts, loosen bolts, and more importantly snapping/spinning off the oil pump nut. That was no fun at all.
A billet block might be the answer, since the cast aluminum might age worse, not better in terms of heat cycling and vibrations, and you are really crossing your fingers for a perfect casting versus what would be a slight imperfection/air bubble or two which would easily pass inspection due to the range of stock horsepower.
Either way, I wish you and Patrick the best of luck. Pioneering in this field and build can definitely be exhausting, not only to the pocket book, but also emotionally. Best wishes.
10-24-2017, 12:23 AM
#143
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
It was heartbreaking seeing this unfold first hand and really sorry it was not something that could have been fixed by some long hours in the shop with a few extra hands from Sweden.
You got a great package and your car is beautifully fabricated and very well put together. And obviously the engine package works extremely well in terms of power and powerband!
A new block and you will be back!
See you guys next year
You got a great package and your car is beautifully fabricated and very well put together. And obviously the engine package works extremely well in terms of power and powerband!
A new block and you will be back!
See you guys next year
10-24-2017, 04:15 PM
#146
Team Owner
Join Date: Oct 2009
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dial the power back 140hp and mass produce it for the street....
the cure for the member's affliction.
are those really the headers?
the cure for the member's affliction.
are those really the headers?
04-09-2018, 08:26 AM
#148
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
Not anytime soon. Probably that's it. But thanks for the well wishes.
04-09-2018, 09:09 AM
#149
Race Car
That sucks.
This place has really slowed down a lot and posts/threads that I really enjoy (hi perf and racing) are fewer and farther between.
Whatever parts I can round up here stateside to help you out, just PM me and I'll see what I can do.
And.....as long as you can bring some credentials.....offer still stands if you are ever stateside and want to try your hand in a spec class.
T
This place has really slowed down a lot and posts/threads that I really enjoy (hi perf and racing) are fewer and farther between.
Whatever parts I can round up here stateside to help you out, just PM me and I'll see what I can do.
And.....as long as you can bring some credentials.....offer still stands if you are ever stateside and want to try your hand in a spec class.
T
