Paulyy

Yes, aero plays the biggest part in WTAC.
have a look at the times. A lot of these cars lap the track faster than v8 supercars.
https://www.worldtimeattack.com/index.php/2017-results/

This is the winning car in patricks class. CFD developed aero. All carbon fibre



Sold, I was looking at buying it.

David Floyd

Another shot of Doom

V2Rocket

Patrick's class was won by a 90's Civic hatch?

Paulyy

if you put it that way. Yes. But if you see the development on it you'd understand. It's no "slap together" job i can say that. The cars are not slow at WTAC. And they're not your average build either. They have some serious money spend and seriously fast.

The winner of pro got a 1.20.9
Rods RP968 got 1.21.4
Winner of Open class got a 1.27.5

Winner of Club sprint (basically street track cars with very limited aero) 1.36.8 With was basically an Evo9 with voltex parts on it. and 550hp.
You can see the difference in numbers. But they run Advan ad08r tyres, vs A050 in the other classes. But you can see the time difference between pro and open with aero differences.

fortysixandtwo

The Doom engines were north of 900 horsepower. Norwood said the blocks were having issues higher than that. 968 block, dry sleeve, open deck, 16 valve, solid followers. Turbo was a T76. I forget what boost and rpm.

Thom

Rod has probably done us a favour in the sense that if his car is ever spontaneously recognised as a "Porsche 968" (and that would be a long call considering how little it bares with an actual Porsche 968) then the values of the cars might, and just might go up a very little, but any gearhead may notice quite quickly how little the two cars have in common.
If I had spent that much as a project manager then I'd probably want the car to bear my own name and would have taken the freedom to get rid of all the design cues of the orignal car where possible/allowed to get a shape 100% dictated by the wind tunnel. Why bother calling it a Porsche when all that's kept from the original car is some design geometry of the cockpit?
I do not really see how all this technological orgy could ever translate into the real world. It's not like a street JME engine is exactly cheap already, and how many folks can have their stock engines already (re)built properly?
We are not talking about a major OEM investing into a race series to promote the image of mass-produced cars designed with different constraints such as longevity and usability... and this is where I find far more relevance in Patrick's car. It has been improved where possible but has retained some of the flawes that still make it a "944 turbo" as the average enthusiast can not only just identify at a glance but also relate to. I can only wish that Patrick won't get carried away on the slippery slope of trying totally new aspects (seq gearbox, new suspension, etc) instead of securing the existing formula that will work with just a bit more preparation.

^ What he said ^
I could build some mega 951 racer if I really wanted, but I'd rather keep my resources "invested" in different projects I can handle all by myself with little of the stress I already endure at work. Horses for courses and all that.

Paulyy

I dont think you fully understand the World Time Attack Challenge concept.

If you want to retain a factory car, you can stick to club sprint class.

If Patrick wants to win his class, Then yes, he'll need to go sequential and better aero.
His class (Open) must retain factory suspension geometry. Other than that he can do as he pleases.

Rods class (Pro) he HAS to have the car the way it is, or it will not be competitive. I cannot be bothered going into details because it seems like no one wants to really go through the rules, or has a clear what WTAC actually means, It's not a Porsche club day type of race.
It does state that the car must still look like the OEM car. Of corse you're going to add aero pieces to it to be competitive. Rods 968 still resembles a 968. It's the same size as a 968 ect. Just like his competitors..

MCA hammer head: (finished 1st this year)
http://www.worldtimeattack.com/index...end-its-title/

Scorch racing s15: (finished 3rd this year)
http://www.worldtimeattack.com/index...uki-wtac-2017/

Both of these cars are no different than Rods. Full carbon fibre, tube frames, sequential, custom suspension and the list goes on.

What's the point in building a car in a specific class and not using every rule to your benefit? Isn't the idea of a race to win? why build a car to come 5th? these are my points that i dont understand why you'd keep the car with more stock parts that clearly you can improve on to win. Like i said, if they both wanted to keep a mostly stock car, they would be in the club sprint category, but they're not.
The only difference you can see is with Rods car, is it wasn't developed over 10 years by slowly getting to where the car is now, instead he "went the whole 9 yards" just to be competitive at that level.

Please read the rules of WTAC and look into WTAC and you'll understand why what Patrick and Rod have done to their cars are important for the event.

Here are the Rules: http://www.worldtimeattack.com/index...ated-for-2017/

some info:
http://www.worldtimeattack.com/index.php/about-wtac/

http://www.worldtimeattack.com/index...-wtac-classes/

951and944S

Because in this formula, that's all that's required.

Uhm, the freedom of a free society to do whatever you want...? How does football or major sports where an athlete that can kick a soccer ball equate to millions of dollars where the EMS doctor who treats player in cardiac arrest and saves his life makes $70,000" translate into the real world"..?
The world would be a better place if Rod raced a stock appearing 944 and gave all of his technological budget to finding clean drinking water for people in the Sahara.
But "translating into the real world", some people by nature are criminals and crooks and would use Rod's money to build themselves a lavish palace while people died of thirst.
But, Rod should do the right thing and focus his efforts into making sure every 944 owner has the access to proper honing tools and a set of factory manuals so they could rebuild their engines properly.


No...., no we're not.
There are already formats for that...., this is different.
That's why it has a different name...
What's more, by your own account, the participants don't have a hidden agenda to stick me with a s#itbox that costs more than the price of the government subsidized sale to repair an energy recovery system that I don't need or a unicorn and rainbow advertising campaign where the latest Ford ECO model makes all the water and air in China breathable and drinkable.



Yep, freedom of choice. To do and say (and post) what you want. Give the people that build one off technological machines the same consideration.

T

Thom

When Patrick purchased his first 951, he was probably a long way from thinking he'd ever take part in WTAC. Fast forward 10 years and he has (another) broken engine after spending a lot of money, on a car he has not even driven/enjoyed himself for a long time. That's all I need to know at this stage.

What are you on about?

951and944S

Nah, I think everybody gets it.

Not my thing though but I respect it.

To me, this format is basically qualifying.

For us, the "race" comes after that.

How many of these cars can turn up the boost or thrash them over the curbs, induce this kind of stress through the entire chassis...., then actually race wheel to wheel for 90 minutes with all the participants on track...?

There are groups on our race weekend that do Time Attack, I get it, it's not my thing but I afford them the right to do so and enjoy the fruits of their labor.

T

951and944S

LOL, I get the feeling everybody knows but you....

I mean, seriously, read what you wrote in this exact post.

You are saying that Patrick was a happy go lucky 944 owner then he somehow became corrupted and went along an evil path that you don't agree with....?

And it's your job to corral him, Rod and Duke back into the Matrix....?

You have two choices....,
take the blue pill and you wake up in your bed where all 944 owner's cars look alike and can equally rebuild their engines that last forever and no one stands out in a technological manner.,
take the red pill and you see how far the rabbit hole goes...,

T

Thom

It sounds like you are derailing the thread into some "weird considerations" while I am just pointing out the good and not so good about Patrick's project in the knowledge he will make educated decisions while pondering everyone's viewpoint and get in a direction that will eventually give him satisfying results, without breaking the bank again trying to follow shaky directions.

We can still drool over the top big budget builds and pay respect to the folks behind them, but this is not what this thread is about.

Paulyy

Turn the boost down and a lot of these cars can do 90 minutes. A lot of WTAC cars are over 700rwhp and lately a few have been hitting over the 1000rwhp mark.
But so to say, how many cars can lap a track as quick as these cars?

Also races can cause collisions with other cars causing damage and more $$$$ into repairs.
Time attack is good if you want to build something fast and not worry about someone "shuttin' your door"

951and944S

I understand.

But you make it sound like all efforts are in vain and that Patrick's ultimate decision on how to proceed can only be "educated" by weighing in the viewpoint of your boundaries as to what an acceptable level of performance should be.

Far from "derailing", I'm trying to coach him into not giving up and went as far as putting up my own gas in the tank by suggesting the sponsorship drive and was the first one to step up. Some old friends joined in and there are others on the sideline ready to do the same.

He knows this is out there.

He hasn't commented.

I appreciate that too.

You'll notice, I'm not twisting his arm.

It's his project...., I've got my own.

When I get to a crossroad of an item on mine with a potentially less than factory reliable outcome, I'll make sure to start a thread and get a consensus on everybody's feelings before I proceed....

T

951and944S

I agree 100%.

I could dump $10s of thousands of dollars into a 5 second 1/4 mile car too that these cars can't do but that's not my thing either.

I respect it for what it is, just like this WTAC.

I would have tuned into live feed or timing if I could have found it.

I can see Thom's point too to an extent if I am being fair because it's logical to me, that if you have an interest in road racing, for a given expected budget figure equaling the total of car+consumables+entry+travel, the most bang for the buck = amount of time enjoying your goal in seat time.

In other words, if you like karting, you don't go to a facility and make one lap, then pull in and get off.

In a 2-3 day weekend, we have 5 hours behind the wheel.

Their goals are different, doesn't make it better or worse.

T