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951 vs S4
I need some input , nearby there is a used S4 with very low miles. I love my 951 but maintenance and repair has become a burden after 3 blown heads and a broken ring in less than one year. I am looking for a daily driver that can give me similar power to my 951. Does anybody own a S4 and can tell me the pro's and con's of the Audi compared to the 951.
In advance thanks for your help. Luis |
lart951
I've owned a coupld of 928's (1986.5 & 91). Both were great cars. The engines are solid, but as with the 951's require the belt/water pump gig to be done at regular intervals which ain't cheap. Also, the a/c system is problematic (at least both of mine were). Other than that, they proved to be very reliable (both were sticks). I've heard of problems with the automatics though. Further, the automatics take out what feels like 50RWHP out of the performance. If you think parts for the 951 are expensive... wait until you buy them for a 928 :-0 TonyG |
I don't own an s4 but I do know
you will be paying more for a slower car and your mechanic sounds like a "Timmy" but then again American's always do pay more for convienience 4 doors and trunk would be nice! Oh yeah and to find out what you really subconciously want, draw a line down the middle of a page and write s4 on one side and 951 on the other. then get really really drunk and choose. when you wake up you will know. |
Tony and all,
He's talking about an Audi S4...not Porsche. ;) |
all hearsay but I have heard that they cannot be overboosted much and that trannies will break quite often when overboosted. Audi apparently did their homework and put in just a strong enough box for stock power. Also, the dealers are strict about any mods...voids any warrenty....
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2+2
oh :-) Too bad... TonyG |
Two of my friends have Audis, TT and S4. They both say that the car is trouble free except for electrical issues. My friend with the tt had the brain box changed twice. Reno
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Yeah S4 = 928
LOL thats what I was thinking too :D |
Matt, the guy I bought my 951 from sold it to me because he had bought an S4. He said that low down, the S4 was faster, but the 951 would smack it pretty hard once the boost came on.
Regards, |
Like most turbo cars, an Audi S4 can be modded into quite the beast. But just like the 951, it can get expensive if you want that power to be reliable.
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I've got a 2000 Audi S4 with a chip and a tiptronic (auto transmission). It has 307hp and 366ft lbs of torque.
You can't compare the two - I mean one is a 4 door sedan and one is a 2 dorr sports car - but as far as a daily driver in good weather and bad - I'd take the S4 in a heartbeat. I mean AWD, automatic, 4 doors, and comfort and nice quality build to boot!!! As far as power - down low it feels like more power probably because of the nice torque - but will probably be a close one all the way to 170mph - but my 951 with short gears only goes to about 154mph anyways - so i guess my S4 would kick my 951 in the butt and my 951 has about the same hp maybe? FWIW, my 951 although not tune properly yet is putting 278hp at the wheels at 14lbs on a Mustang dyno which i am hoping for 300+ hp at 18lbs. The build quaility of the S4 is fantastic and it has all the factory options, nav, etc - plus i don't have that nasty oil smell that is common with all 951's - and I keep very good care of my 951 and i've owned my 951 since new (1987). http://www.p-caronline.com/directory/3_turbos Only two bad things I can say about the S4 is; 1) Automatics are not fun on the track - but i did not buy it for that - i bought it as a daily driver with all the fix'ins - you could always buy a 6 speed though. 2) Turbos might give you trouble after you chip it, and you have to replace them in pairs - mine went out at 38,000 miles - the repair bill covered under warranty was aprroximately $10,000 - had a bad radiator in there also in that bill, so mybe the turbos cost $9,000.00? To me, my 951 is, well a fun toy and a money pit that is only driven on nice days and at the track. Hope this helps - as far as maintenance, the S4 is a dream compared to my 951 - and no i don't work on my cars anymore - I simply bring the S4 into my dealer and my 951 into my mechanic that has been working on my car since new at his own shop. I'm too old for that crap now:rolleyes: |
I was talking about the audi!
never seen a 4 dr 928! |
s4's are great cars my friend has a 2000 model....with intake,exhaust,chip,and boost controller at 1 bar.He ran a 12.9 @112 in the 1/4..!!! His car is nice and very quick too my knowledge i havent hered of him complaining of anything...but, then again he might just not be saying anything because he doesnt want too.Who knows........oh fyi his car pulls me.....even on the freeway ....not by much until around 140...after that i seem to catch back up with him.his car is probably around 350 rwhp.......if its true with the turbos ouch..i mean yeah it was under warrenty but, imagine if you had to pay 10,000.00 out of your own pocket you could build your dream 951 engine for that....so i guess the quesiton is how long it is stil under warrenty.......cause i think the maintance on some of these new cars is just as bad as the 951 is.I realy wish i could figure out why my websitre isint accepting my video's cause of would love to post the video of his car and us racing.
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500hp aftermarket turbo kit for the s4 cost like 6k iirc, including new intercoolers etc. so why bother replacing the stock ones anyway? broken parts are just an excuse to upgrade
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The S4 seems to possess chick magnet so maybe that's a good reason.
http://www.ridejudge.com/rides/00002540.jpg |
Yeah the S4 with the Hooter's girl is nice. It looks like one that used to be owned by a guy named Zerin down in Texas. I know he sold it a while ago. The kit mentioned above probably does cost that much but without the install. The whole front end needs to come off of these cars to drop the engine to get to the turbo's. Maybe has someone has done it with the engine still in there but from what I saw on my S4 avant I don't see how it would be possible.
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I have one of each. 951 great track car, tiresome day in and day out. s4 great day in and day out car, not build for track duty. Warps rotors, blows turbos and eats transmissions.
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Hooters girls do everything for self recognition, so that doesn't count. A well cared for 951 has much more chick magnetism; timeless sexiness!
I think the audi is also a bit heavier. |
Am I the only one hear that would never let anyone sit on there car, no matter what they looked like??
My buddy has an A4, and he's had tranny problems from day one. He's had two new boxes under waranty and one rebuild out of waranty. But then again, that's not an S4. |
Not only are S4's faster:D
But they are stronger built too! I mean if you close the hood wrong on a 951 instead of letting it drop from a 1 foot level, you''ll dent it.:D :roflmao: But, ah she can sit on my ah hood anyday:cheers: Hope my wife doesn't see this:roflmao: |
quoted by 3turbos
Not only are S4's faster Can you elaborate a little bit on that please. I was under the impression that from a standing point the S4 is faster, but on a rolling start the 951 would have the advantage. Thanks Luis |
Steve do you really feel the S4 faster than your 951?
Can you elaborate a little bit on that please. I was under the impression that from a standing point the S4 is faster, but on a rolling start the 951 would have the advantage. Luis, Down low it seem faster because of the big fat torque curve (S4 366 ft lbs at about 2000 rpm and my 951 261 ft lbs at 5400 rpm's). My 951 is consider very lightly modded in the engine department and my S4 is also lightly modded even less. The S4 although heavier, never makes a mistake - you simply mash the throttle - and in "ANY" type of weather. The 951 although lighter, can have driver errors if you are in the wrong gear - and if you run in any but absolute perfect conditions like damp road - well then I'd give the edge to the S4. I mean I can change CD's and/or volume level of the music when I floor it in the S4 - I can't do that in my 951.:D All in all, I say they are close in acceleration, but it no comparison when used as a daily driver - when I want to drive a stick and don't mind my clothes sometimes smelling like burnt oil, then I drive the 951. If I have to drive in heavy traffic - the S4 is quick enough, fun enough, and I don't smell like burnt oil.:cheers: |
"S4 366 ft lbs " Lightly modified????? What is stock hp/tq on S4???
I have raced with an S4 before (and a TT) and it was close, but I was faster, and that was with old wastegate and about 11-12 psi. Now, I would have walked away from him. Plus I don;t know if his was stock or not. I smoked the TT. :) |
toddk911,
"S4 366 ft lbs " Lightly modified????? What is stock hp/tq on S4??? I have raced with an S4 before (and a TT) and it was close, but I was faster, and that was with old wastegate and about 11-12 psi. Now, I would have walked away from him. Plus I don;t know if his was stock or not. Stock S4 is 250hp and 258 ft lbs simple chip for the engine - now 307hp and 366 ft lbs - but it doesn't come all in until about 2500 rpm's before 258 ft lbs came all in by 1850 rpm's another chip I installed is to quicken the auto transimissions shifts by .5 sec plus the chip takes away all limiters - top end is about 170 mph +/- 1 or 2 mph IMHO, I think they are very nice general purpose all around weather cars. I've owned Quattros since 1988. |
I have both an s4 and 951 as well....
The 951 has k27/6, custom programming, and a bunch of other stuff... Too lazy to put it on the dyno, I really should since I have access to one. The S4 is Sportec stage 3, full rs4 gear and makes about 440hp. I've run the S4 against 993TT's and pulled on them, and with a 996TT on the highway it was a pretty equal fight, although the botttom end tq of the 996TT was better, but after both cars were on boost we seemed pretty even.. So that should give you an idea of what a properly modd'ed s4 can do. The s4 is the best compromise car for me. It has modern luxury, is practical with its AWD and 4 doors, and somewhat sporty. I had a deposit on a 993TT but bailed on it at the last minute with cold feet about dropping that much in one car. The S4 saved me 20k from that, is a sleeper I can take anywhere, and is faster on the street. All in all i'm happy with it, and its not 18 years old like my porsche. or 30 like my other porsche! I have had an andial stroker kit sitting around here for the last 3 years that I need to put into the 951, then it'll be the faster car again, which is how it should be! But for me the car I drive the most is the car i'd like to get the most enjoyment out of. For now that'll be my audi aka daily driver aka winter beater! hehe Pics of the S4 can be seen at my gallery. I need to take new ones as I've added a pair of 993 turbo S big yellows to slow the pig down. http://gallery.rennlist.com/gallery/951porsche |
Plus, if you have a "Silver" S4, then they are faster than other S4's:D :D :cheers:
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"Stock S4 is 250hp and 258 ft lbs"
I guess the one I raced with was stock. Are the Audi TT's twin turbo??? or they just call it a TT?? |
toddk911,
"Stock S4 is 250hp and 258 ft lbs" I guess the one I raced with was stock. Are the Audi TT's twin turbo??? or they just call it a TT?? I can't quite remember, but the TT comes in 3 flavors and are all single turbo 4 cylinders - depending on the year and if it was a Quattro or not - but they are all called the TT I think when the TT "Quattro" came out, not only did they increase the power to 225hp - but they gave it dual exhaust and also put a small Quattro logo on the right rear of the car - nice car but reminds of looking out of a tank when I was in the service - tiny slotted windows! :rolleyes: So it could have been 160hp - 180hp single exhaust - or the 2002/2003? version with 225hp with dual exhaust and Quattro awd added Thats what turned me off on them (my wife wanted one) - they didn't have very much hp and for the 1st year and maybe the 2nd year, and they were not Quattro's. If it is an Audi I'm gonna buy, then it has to have Quattro! :D |
Re: 951 vs S4
I just sold my '87 951 to Scott. To be fair, the '87 was never tuned to it's full potential, but I had a Guru Stage II map kit, test pipe, 12-14psi, and some other small misc.
I also have a '00 S4. Stock for stock, the S4 would beat a 951 almost all the time. The only advantage the 951 might have is a 100mph+ run on the freeway and even then it would be close. I put a Giac chip in the S4 and it adds a ton of performance. Not my car, but here are some dyno numbers: Stock Dyno Giac X I'm not sure saying the stock K03's are prone to failure is fair. There are quit a few people running around with 80k+ of chipped boost. The entire car supports close to 400 flywheel hp which can be achieved with nothing more than a chip, intake, and full exhaust. The S4 is a MUCH better daily driver than the 951. The only con I can think of is the 951 is a much better track car, although the Audi can be pretty mean at the local autocross. -Matt Originally posted by lart951 I need some input , nearby there is a used S4 with very low miles. I love my 951 but maintenance and repair has become a burden after 3 blown heads and a broken ring in less than one year. I am looking for a daily driver that can give me similar power to my 951. Does anybody own a S4 and can tell me the pro's and con's of the Audi compared to the 951. In advance thanks for your help. Luis |
Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't the s4 require dropping the entire motor to replace the turbo's?
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How does a chip add SO much more performance??? I thought chips for our cars added a lot, but for the S4 it is almost 100 tq gain.
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Originally posted by toddk911 How does a chip add SO much more performance??? I thought chips for our cars added a lot, but for the S4 it is almost 100 tq gain. -Matt |
is it just me, or has anyone else heard about all the reliability issues of the s4's? i've read so many times that when modded they are very unreliable. maybe thats why the new s4's have a v8 instead of a the biturbo system. plus, we're comparing a new car with new technology, to a 15 year old car. thats a big part of the reason the 951 is unreliable sometimes, but as for the s4 i don't know.
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The S4 weighs between 3700 and 3800 lbs. Pretty heavy.
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The only reliable car that I have owned and know of is a Honda and it was close to perfect.
Every car has it's weak points. Some more than others, and how each driver/owner takes care of it or abuses it. If you drag race and constantly drop the clutch at 5K to 6K then something is going to break on either car. That said, yes an old car is at a disadvantage as far as reliabilty is concerned to a newer one. If that is true, then I would from a reliablity stand point pick a S4 over a 951 for a daily driver I think the original poster was asking about which to use as a more reliable daily driver. Besides the fact, that they are totaly different cars. Both are fun to drive!:cheers: |
Originally posted by toddk911 Are the Audi TT's twin turbo??? or they just call it a TT?? |
Based on the straightline discussion, I have to chime in here- the S4 is as fast, if not faster than a Turbo S stock vs stock in a straightline & that is pretty much all the way up- the Turbo S SHOULD top out a few mph faster & THAT is the reason why it would EVENTUALLY outrun the S4- the prob we're having here is, that all of our 951's are so old, that they are all in various stages of tune- the S4's are getting that way, but only slightly- the Turbo S runs the 1/4 in 14.2 @ 101 & the Audi is right there w/it- the 6-sp ranges from 14.0 - 14.2 & 99 - 102 range- The BEST a Turbo S EVER did when new (in magazine tests w/professional driver, etc) was a 14.2, EXCEPT for the 13.9 managed in C@D & THAT was w/shorter FD- I believe it was a 3.78 vs stock 3.38 which limited topp speed to ~145 vs 167 normal stock gearing... Anyway, the 0-120 times are pretty close & THAT is w/the SHORT gearing- THAT Turbo S ran 0-120 in ~22.0 vs the S4, which is always ~22.0 flat- chip the S4 & the 951 S BOTH & the S4 will walk all OVER it in straightline- VERY FEW 951s can run the 1/4 in <13.0- one of the 1st S4's tested in EC w/chips (Neuspeed) ran a 13.0- that will outrun M5's... The sky's the limit from there, w/BOTH cars, but, as several have said, they're just different cars... Anyway, many people like to comment on 951's being faster from rolling starts, etc- they stack up right where they are supposed to for their HP:weight vs their gearing, etc- they don't magically get faster in the higher #'s- ALL cars get slower as speeds increase- the ONLY advantage a 951 has in upper ranges (>130) is that short 5th they have. stacked on top of their 4th.... No biggie, but check times for other cars in the 14.0 - 14.5 range, like E36 M3's- they accelerate just as fast in the upper ranges as 951s & ALL of these cars are faster 0-60 than 5-60- the launch is better than a slow roll-on ALWAYS b/c the spinning tires keep the engine from bogging ever-so-slightly, thereby helping their times....
In any event, it all comes down to personal preference & specific use of the car in question.... BOTH can be INCREDIBLE cars & BOTH can be NIGHTMARES to own.... |
"I have one of each. 951 great track car, tiresome day in and day out. s4 great day in and day out car, not build for track duty. Warps rotors, blows turbos and eats transmissions."
Two videos from Sears Point: Porsche951vsAudiS4.avi (6.5mb) - me vs. AudiS4 Porsche951vs928S4.avi (16.4mb) - me vs. 928S4 may require DiVX codec. 'nuff said... http://www.gururacing.net/ImagesMisc...lin-tongue.gif |
AWESOME! WOOO WOOO
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nice music Danno.... :D What happened to the Audi anyway? It looked like it had a blow-out or something w/all the smoke pouring out from underneath.... Also, I was comparing mostly stock vs mostly stock & assuming mostly equal drivers- YOU can run a full 5 seconds quicker in YOUR modded 951 than a pro could run in a stock Turbo S at Willow springs- they lapped WS in 1:41 back in late '80's- even a stock '89 911 Turbo could only run 1:43... I'd love to know about a chipped Audi S4 &/or some of the 928s esepecially GTS.... Cool videos....
Also- several people have asked about the S4's- they DO weigh a good bit more- the test weight of a 944 Turbo S is ~3150 while the S4's is ~3650- that's a solid 500lbs... The TQ gain by the chips is also much higher than that of the HP- I have no idea why though, I just know it happens- I have also seen several stock S4's dyno close to 250TQ (@ the WHEELS) while their HP was under 200- not sure why either- they may have had some tuning probs from the factory for a short period, but, you wouldn't know it from any of the ones I'VE been in... Their biggest set-back, IMO, is their weight & WHERE it is (over the front wheels- 60/40)... As for switching to the V8, I'm not sure that was the best idea OR why they did it even- the V6 did pretty well, although I HAVE heard of some issues- the V8 hasn't been getting the best reviews compared to the V6TT in road tests, although it's STILL been beating everything else in it's class that I've seen- it's supposed to be much louder, for instance- not sure about it's modability, but, a chipped V6TT will blow a stock V8 away- some people, however, have said that tuning the V8 might prove to be pretty rewarding as well- we'll see.... |
white smoke... ouch!
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`I have a friend with an S4 and it started out with a chip that was supposed to put it over 300HP and while it is a nice car it just didn't feel that fast to me and this car was at 20psi. This same guy had a 951 with a K27/8, exhaust and an MAF and at the same boost the 951 would destroy the S4. He has now changed the turbo's to the K04's, has a $2000 exhaust, etc... and on race gas it is supposed to put out 400+ HP. It is much faster now but this is after thousands of dollars and lots of work because on those cars you have to take of the front part of the car and drop the engine to get to the turbo's.
His brother has a 951 with a cam, serious head work, K27/8 and Carrillo rods and to make a long story short the 951 is significantly faster. This is with both cars at around 20 psi. Lastly, this same guy informed me that there was a shootout with all the big tuner's comparing their modified S4's and from what I was told they had a tough time breaking into the 12's despite all the mods. I guess this will be in the next Eurpean Car magazine. |
stick a lot of cash into either one and they both will be fast race or street
make the weather somewhat other than perfect and dry - I would give the edge to the S4 - and if its raining - I know you would want an S4 with AWD need to carry 4 people in comfort or to use as a daily driver - I would give the edge to the S4 hey, they ARE 2 different cars - the S4 is a 4 door sedan that runs as well as some sports cars :cheers: :D |
"What happened to the Audi anyway?"
Nothing, he just ran over the oil pick-up stuff they laid down to mop up a blown engine (spun #2 rod-bearing) by this guy: http://www.gururacing.net/ImagesMisc/Violet951a.jpghttp://www.gururacing.net/ImagesMisc/Violet951b.jpghttp://www.gururacing.net/ImagesMisc/Violet951c.jpg You can read all about him on Doug Hayashi's NSX-Files website, specifically the Chapter 83 - S2000 Challenge-Sears section. |
To me, this is just a cool thread. Reminds me I'm not crazy, and not the only guy who can only drive german cars. I am having an absolute blast driving the 951, and also, I enjoy romping up to the slopes in the quattro to ski.
I really want an RS2. I need to buy lotto tix or something. I would get a hold of one of those porsche /wagon/quattro/beasts and tweak it till it stung. :cheers: My Avant in summer running gear. |
Sweet winter time ride - an RS2
315 hp, quattro, four "oh ****" handles, and ya gotta love the 968/993 type mirrors too.........throw some studded snows on it and go run amuck around the ski towns......fun
http://www.fantasycars.com/sedans/audi/audi_rs24.jpg |
Blitz- I've heard of some of the S4's not getting the times indicative of the HP they're supposed to be putting down... But, the original one I saw in EC was only chipped (Neuspeed chips) & it rana 13.0- that's impressive- I think the prob is two-fold- first, the Audi Quattro is a BITCH to launch effectively- a modded one will be faster on WET ground than on dry- the reason is b/c the wheels will not spin- if so, only for an instant- the wet allows them to lose just enough traction to spin the tires slightly & avoid bogging the engine- I first read about this concept in SCC where they tested 2-FWD, 2-RWD, & 2AWD cars- the 2 AWD's were a modded Audi A4 & a 400HP modded AWD Talon. BOTH cars were faster off the line on wet ground... Anyway, the second, & possibly bigger reason, is the state of tune of the individual car- when installling larger turbos, etc, the A:F ratio has to be just right to optimize power & I'm not sure how easy that really is to accomplish on that car- I just don't know much about it, BUT, I DO know of a guy who is famous for Bimer tuning (as told to me by my mechanic) who burns chips & will NOT sell chips for a 951 PERIOD unless the car is in HIS shop on HIS dyno- he says the 951 is the most inconsistent car for chips that exists- I'm not sure about this, but it would explain some variances b/t similarly modded cars....
Anyway, as several have stated, I don't think you can go wrong w/either car- the Audi is REALLY NICE, but, if you can find a 951 in excllent condition, then, IT will be a nice car too- just completly different cars really.... BTW- DANNO- do you have any idea what a stock S4 (&/or chipped S4) can run at Willow Springs? What about a stock E36M3? I also mean by a professional driver- basically, what is the limit of the car, as the Turbo S was 1:41- I'd like to know how the later BMW's & Audi's compare.... |
"do you have any idea what a stock S4 (&/or chipped S4) can run at Willow Springs? What about a stock E36M3? I also mean by a professional driver- basically, what is the limit of the car"
Here's times at Willow Springs, mods & upgrades unknown: BMW E36 M3 1:26.0 - Gil Caravantes ('97 3.2L) 1:26.9 - James Sofranas 1:29.9 - Ross & McGinn 1:34.1 - Jon Holder 1:37.5 - Fred Gil 1:37.5 - Guagenti 1:39.0 - Navid Kahangi (E46) BMW E30 M3 1:36.3 - Mainini, Scott & Iwaniw 1:37.7 - Hull & Arnold 1:39.7 - William Koneval 1:46.1 - Darren Keene Audi A4/S4 1:36.7 - Babcock & Babcock 1:46.1 - Jerry Buza (A4) Porsche 944NA 1:29.9 - Mitch Stahl 1:35.6 - Neil Wright Porsche 944 Turbo 1:27.6 - Wayne Mello (although I think Rick White was driving for this lap) 1:34.7 - John Wang 1:37.6 - Chris Houdre 1:38.5 - Danno (me) :( |
Speaking of 951s on racetracks, here's how you get around Thunderhill quickly:
http://www.nsxfiles.com/images2/otc2...ne_thill_3.jpg http://www.nsxfiles.com/images2/otc2...ne_thill_4.jpg http://www.nsxfiles.com/images2/otc2...ne_thill_1.jpg As far as I can tell, Rick White's got the fastest times in a 951 on any track. Pictures and times above from Doug Hayashi's NSX-Files Stories, specifically the OTC-2003 day at Thunderhill. |
Had a run in this morning with a 344 hp 2004 S4 on the highway. To make a long story short. We ran from 70mph. I pulled about 18 lengths on him up to 140. He was in such disbelief that I repeated the run 2 more times with the same outcome. granted my car isn't stock.
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Originally posted by Danno As far as I can tell, Rick White's got the fastest times in a 951 on any track. Pictures and times above from Doug Hayashi's NSX-Files Stories, specifically the OTC-2003 day at Thunderhill. |
Originally posted by jimbo1111 Had a run in this morning with a 344 hp 2004 S4 on the highway. To make a long story short. We ran from 70mph. I pulled about 18 lengths on him up to 140. He was in such disbelief that I repeated the run 2 more times with the same outcome. granted my car isn't stock. So, you must run... 9's in the quarter? Or he wasn't racing... -Matt |
Originally posted by Mledbetter So, 70-140 runs with a car that runs mid to upper 13's stock in the 1/4 and you put 18 lengths on him? So, you must run... 9's in the quarter? Or he wasn't racing... -Matt ALSO- Danno- I replied to this thread last night after you posted the WS times, BUT, it didn't come up evidently... Those S4's & M3's (E36's included) are pretty FU**ING fast- just so everyone here knows- I KNOW you've run in the 1:36's, so your 1:38.x run wasn't as good as you've done- what's holding you back? I thought you were putting out more power now- actually, I thought you were constantly making STOCK NEW 944 TURBO S ran 1:41 back in the day w/pro driver- the 968 CS (w/M030 17" package, etc) ran 1:43.3 w/pro, etc- '89 911 Turbo ran 1:43, STOCK REGULAR 951 ran 1:45 - 1:46- Talon TT was in the 1:46-1:47 bracket- same w/Jetta Vr6 & SVT Contour- RX7TT ran a 1:41.x, 300ZXTT ran a 1:43.x, 3000GTVR4 was in the high 1:43's, C4 Vette was ~1:40.x & SUPRATT was 1.39 flat(!). I would LOVE to know what a mildly tuned Supra TT (w/mild susp & some 600HP) would run... BTW- STOCK Viper GTSR ran just under 1:35, just to let everyone know.... :D Those are about all the times I know for thjat track, BUT, I ALSO NOTICED THAT ALL BUT ONE E30M3 BEAT the Turbo S by ~2full seconds- that's pretty impressive & ALL the E36M3's blew the stock Turbo S away- BTW- you said the fastest 951 was Rick White- what does he run at WS? Cervelli HAD the record @ 1:23.x IIRC- I KNOW he was sub 1:25 for SURE- I thought he still had the record(?).... AND- I didn't know you could get a 951 up on two wheels that high- does that happen when they get modded like that often, or, wasa he just ABOUT to roll it? It LOOKS like he was, actually- I've seen pics of old 16v GTi's up on two wheels about like that- hte rear's get a lot higher than the fronts, but, they are up pretty good-the rear inside ALWAYS gets up off the ground in GTi's though, as well as Corrado's, but, to a lesser extent... Anyway, interesting stuff.... |
"Actually, that's just a little ole' slightly modified 924S. "
I think Rick was the ringer co-driver using Wayne's car. He bought it during a weak moment when smoking the Go Fast Crack Pipe. Although Rick's darn fast in the 924S, got something like 1:14 on the old Streets of Willow course without the Bowl vs. my 1:21 in the 951. Also on the lap-time comparisons above, the tires makes a HUGE difference and we don't know what tires each of those guys were running. Between my BF-Hardrock street tires with a treadwear rating of 340, there's an 8-second/lap gain to be had in going to Yokohama A032Rs. Another second can be had with Kumho Victoracers. Yet another second can be had with Hoosiers. With pure Michelin slicks like Wayne's using, there's another second or two. So there's easily a 10-second spread in tires alone. It was glorious seeing Wayne beat up on the Vipers at Willow Springs in that car: NSX-files: Chapter 77 - TCRA at Willowhttp://www.gururacing.net/imagesmisc...lin-tongue.gif |
Danno-
How in the HELL is he running those times in a 924S? Has he turbo charged it or something? I know power isn't everything, BUT, you had told me awhile back, that WS was a "power track." I know Cervelli ran in the 1:23's OR 1:24's, which is STILL ~3sec faster than Rick/Wayne's(?) time above, BUT, that's closing the gap pretty well, considering, ESPECIALLY it being a power track. Was Cervelli running slicks when he made his best runs there? What about Rick in the sbove, pics you posted- is THAT how he got the wheels up in the air? Also, are A032R's streetable tires? I've heard of them, but I don't think I've ever looked at them on Tire Rack or anything... Also, what spring rates are YOU running when drving WS AND about how much HP/TQ do you think you're making? IF these aren't secretive specs? :D Also, do you have ANY idea what kind of HP/TQ cervelli was making in his sub 1:25 runs? I would LOVE to know what kind of times a 600+ HP/TQ Milledge 968/951 w/mild track susp mods OR a Gomes engine OR even better, an 1100HP Norwood Doom II w/susp mods... Damn, there are so many ways you could configure a car, the variables are endless I guess- the original 405HP GTP Le Man's 944 that weighed 2040lbs was probably one of the fastest ones of all, w/slicks (which I assume it ALWAYS ran) for a track run... Anyway.... Thanks, |
Posted by Matt:
So, 70-140 runs with a car that runs mid to upper 13's stock in the 1/4 and you put 18 lengths on him? So, you must run... 9's in the quarter? Or he wasn't racing... If you call 3 runs not racing than fine. I don't think a driver could mess up 3 times. I am just stating the facts. S4 are not all that fast. In fact I think a mildly modified 951 Chip's mbc and exhaust would have given him a dam good run if not beat him. He was becoming a spec in my mirror. |
jimbo1111 Posted by Matt:
So, 70-140 runs with a car that runs mid to upper 13's stock in the 1/4 and you put 18 lengths on him? So, you must run... 9's in the quarter? Or he wasn't racing... If you call 3 runs not racing than fine. I don't think a driver could mess up 3 times. I am just stating the facts. S4 are not all that fast. In fact I think a mildly modified 951 Chip's mbc and exhaust would have given him a dam good run if not beat him. He was becoming a spec in my mirror. ___________________________________________________________ jimbo1111, You have to remember that the 2004 S4 may not been broken in yet and most likely is stock and does not have turbos for easy horsepower gains like the S4's with turbo's. That being said, is your 951 stock? I'm gonna guess not. I'm not familiar with the non turbo S4's and have never driven one. I'm only familiar with the V6 turbo S4's. So I would say of the "old turbo S4's" and 951's from a rolling start, because neither one is a drag racer - I think they would be close, but; *) stock 951 against stock S4 = IMHO edge goes to S4 *) chipped 951 against chipped S4 = IMHO edge goes to S4 *) chipped, larger turbo 951 against same mod to S4 = IMHO edge goes to S4 *) race it in damp weather = IMHO edge goes to S4 *) track suspension on both, depending if track is tight or not or if race is an endurance which means tire changes - it would be only seconds between them. *) racing in the rain:D = IMHO edge goes to S4 *) race prepared cars like the German Touring car series with th like of Micheal Galati (sp) etc = the edge DID go to the S4 :D Bottom line equal mods to "different cars" they would be close. Turn the tables around and have a stock 951 run a modified S4 - I think the S4 would be 18 car lenghts ahead. But even then if it were me and maybe others racing your 951 - what if I only wanted to run 70 to 120 but you wanted to run 70 to 140 - that could be why you were so far ahead - I might have felt anything over 120 was not safe for my driving record. On my S4 my top speed limiters are gone - but with the limiters in place, limit was at 148mph - I do not know what the limiters are on the "new" S4 I'm not say the 951 is not a fast car or isn't a nice car - heck I have both. My 951 is lightly modified and my S4 is less modified and they are both fairly close - maybe my 951 is faster in certain areas and might be faster than my S4 up to 150 which is the top end on my 951 - so in my case after 150, my S4 would kick butt. All in all, I'm not saying you didn't beat the S4 by that many car lenghts, but not only are you comparing apples to oranges, but if yours is modified and the S4 is not, your comparisons are totaly meaning less with the exception just to show that they are different cars in almost every respect. The S4 for being a heavy awd drive 4 door sedan can for the most part be quick and fun to drive as a 951 sports car. :cheers: |
There are a lot of variances b/t production cars- especially b/t V8's- that was the reason ford didn't make a 00 Cobra- they had been selling them as 320HP cars & found that many were short by ~60HP- they ended up refunding some $ for those who wanted dif cars altogether- some people took small rebates & still others exchanged their's for Mustangs that actually had full HP... Miata's were another similar one- they went up to 140HP for their 10th anniverssary- that was ~20HP more & the car only added ~100lbs, BUT, it ALSO got a close ratio 6-sp to help accel along w/susp & wheel/tire improvements- the car didn't do any better really- they found it was low on HP.... A friend had 3 VR6 Corrados & a VR6 Jetta- not at the same time, but.... The Corrados were 2 late '93's & 1 '94- meaning they had the newer interior (as opposed to 92's) & were distributorless as well as slight mods eleswhere.... The Jetta had 5 fewer HP @ 4 fewer TQ bone stock & was ~50lb heavier- the Jetta had a taller FD- 3.38 vs 3.65 so the overall ratios were taller, thereby slowing it a tiny bit- anyway, the cars all had the same mods- lot's of susp mods & chips, cone filter & bored TB- the Jettas had all of this except the TB- the Jetta started w/less HP, had more weight, taller gearing, & one less mod & it would beat all 3 of the Corrados w/out question.... We had it up to ALMOST 150 one night, ~149- we beat a 4.9L Mustang on hte freeway one night & also beat a 4.6L Mustang from a standing drag- it had us through 1st, but, by the time we grabbed 3rd, we were in front & by 100, we had close to 5 car lengths on him(!). The point- the Jetta was just strong- it had to be one of the fastest '95 Jetta VR6's off the showroom floor.... Sometimes it just happens- I'm not sure why, but, it seems that V8's have more probs keeping their claimed power.... Not sure, but I THINK this must have something to do w/the Audi's- a V8 S4 runs ~13.5 & that has been VERY consistent in hte magazines so far- a 951 would need more than just chips to be able to BEAT a 13.5 for sure- to beat a car that could runa 13.5 by ~18 car lengths b/t 70 & 140 would take a 951 that could at least run mid 12's- there aren't many that can do that- to do that, you need close to 400HP in a 951- at LEAST 375 or so w/TQ to match. IF you're car is pushing this, then great, but, if not, I REALLY think the Audi wasn't performing as it should be- that would not surprise me either since I hear people, ALL THE TIME, talk about how this car "flies" or that car "will MOVE!" etc... I mean, anyone w/a car that will break into the 16's thinks it's fast as fu**! I've heard people say that stock late '80's Acura Legends would "FLY!"- the original Legend COUPE 5-sp would not crack a sub 16.0 on it's BEST DAY, MUCH LESS a regular sedan Legend! Also, anything from Sciroccos to Civics to Accords to Cadillacs to SENTRAS will "FLY!" Hell, anything that will break 100mph must be "FAST!" it's silly really, so, if you think about it, one of these guy's get's into a V8 S4 that is in horrible tune & it feels like a rocket to them, b/c they don;t KNOW any better & it runs mid 15's(!?) :rolleyes:
Anyway, make no mistake about it, a V8 S4 that is putting out full power is pretty damn fast- a 13.5 will beat a stock Turbo S by .7 sec- sure, you can chip a Turbo S & get CLOSE, but still- a chipped S4TT on the other hand, will flat out destroy a chipped 951 w/nothing else, but again, assuming it is in good tune- the S4TT's don't put out near the HP (even chipped, they're only ~310) but, they get the TQ to ~370) & THAT is what get's the axles turning & they are ~200lbs lighter, etc- I love Audis, but I'm not too big on hte new V8's.... I LOVE the S4TT's though- to each his own.... STEVE- your guestimates seem to be right on w/the S4TT- the stock S4TT usually ran the 1/4 b/t 14.0 & 14.2 in all the mags I've seen- the 951 was always 14.4-14.6- the Turbo S was ALWAYS 14.2, EXCEPT for Porshe manufacturers data (which is usually spot-on, but NOT here) was 13.5 & THAT HAD to be a prototype that was in excllent tune WITH the 3.78FD. NOW- C&D is the ONLY one that tested a Turbo S that broke below a 14.2- it ran a 13.9 b/c the dealer that was going to loan the Turbo S to them to test, screwed up or something & they had to locate another at the last minute- they found one througha dealer, BUT, it was a specially ordered one wthe3.78 FD (I THINK it was 3.78- it was a good bit shorter than stock 3.38 anyway)- is THAT the FD YOU HAVE, since you say you're limited to <150? The math I get on that is mid 140's, so that must be about right.... Anyway, what is the fastest you've gotten your S4? Also the 951? I'd love to know what some of the S4's can do top speed w/out reve limiter...what type of chips do you have? Any other S4 mods? 951 mods? Sounds like you have the best of both worlds.....:) :cheers: |
My 951 is lightly modified and my S4 is less modified and they are both fairly close 3 turbos, could you list the mods on your 951 please. |
Robby,
STEVE- your guestimates seem to be right on w/the S4TT- the stock S4TT usually ran the 1/4 b/t 14.0 & 14.2 in all the mags I've seen- the 951 was always 14.4-14.6- the Turbo S was ALWAYS 14.2, EXCEPT for Porshe manufacturers data (which is usually spot-on, but NOT here) was 13.5 & THAT HAD to be a prototype that was in excllent tune WITH the 3.78FD. NOW- C&D is the ONLY one that tested a Turbo S that broke below a 14.2- it ran a 13.9 b/c the dealer that was going to loan the Turbo S to them to test, screwed up or something & they had to locate another at the last minute- they found one througha dealer, BUT, it was a specially ordered one wthe3.78 FD (I THINK it was 3.78- it was a good bit shorter than stock 3.38 anyway)- is THAT the FD YOU HAVE, since you say you're limited to <150? The math I get on that is mid 140's, so that must be about right.... Anyway, what is the fastest you've gotten your S4? Also the 951? I'd love to know what some of the S4's can do top speed w/out reve limiter...what type of chips do you have? Any other S4 mods? 951 mods? Sounds like you have the best of both worlds..... My 951 has a top end of about 154mph at about 6850-7000rpm - I've been only able to hit 150-151 at our local track before the 1st turn with maybe 500-600rpm left - that is the fastest I have been in my 951 because I don't believe in doing that kind speed on the street. My S4 has a top end of 168 to 172 proven by many others with the same mods I have - my S4 is a "tiptronic" - I've only had that up to 145 at the same local track before the 1st turn, so slightly slower, but I wasn't trying to real hard epecially with 3 other students in the car with me. I guess you could try and do those speeds on a nice country road at 2 am or something like that where you wouldn't endanger anyone else, but I don't trust the "deer" here - I've not only hit one before, lucky for me a glancing blow - otherwise, I would probably be dead. They weight alot and can do some real damage - it is hard to avoid them doing 150+ mph - I don't care how good a driver you think you are - when a "deer" suddenly appears before your eyes at 150, your pretty much a goner. unless someone above you likes you alot. I'm lucky to have both; 1987 951 owned since new - 2000 S4 owned since new.:cheers: |
lart951 quote:
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- My 951 is lightly modified and my S4 is less modified and they are both fairly close -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- by 3 turbos 3 turbos, could you list the mods on your 951 please. lart951, I trying to do a reliable street car - as always, everytime you do something to your car, it finds another weak link - also it is a work in progress even though I've owed it for many years, and built and owned other race cars, I have kept this one, only because they are not worth much and it is cheaper for me to keep it - I'm but a poor man now. 951 mods - http://www.p-caronline.com/directory/3_turbos My S4 is a daily driver and bought only for that duty - If Iwanted to buy it for anything else, I would have bought a 6speed manual. Mods on the S4 is simply 2 computers - one for the engine for more hp and tq and one for the transmission for quicker shifts - plus it is fully loaded with "all the factory options", i.e., NAV, CD changer, heated door locks, seats, and all washer fluids (you need that heated stuff in MN) etc. :bigbye: |
Robby,
Forgot my final drive ring and pinion change is the only difference besides my increase in rpm limit. Ring and pinion is a 3.889 RPM limit should be 6850 to about 6950 - but not always consistant - I've hit 7200 in the lower gears - cuase it winds up "real fast" with short gears Diameter tires used are different because I have 2 track setups. http://www.p-caronline.com/directory/3_turbos S4 has 2 different ECU's engine is from APR and Transmission is from AWE One of these days I'll get a friend to drive my S4 and do a roll from 50 to 100/120 and see how close we are. The S4 just seems faster and is definetly effortless when getting to speed and the 366ft lbs of tq all in by 2500rpms is such a rush - I mean I just sit there with no muss no fuss and simply stick my foot into it and it goes very well - it is simply one of the best all around general purpose cars I've owned or least that I can afford without monthly payments. I mean a stock or modified RS6 would be nice, but I hate car payments. Especially if I continue to throw money at the 951 which my wife (and I) agree to say it is a money pit - but she laughs at me and can't understand why I put money into such an old car (951) ince I don't drive it very much. :cheers: |
Steve- that all sounds pretty cool- how did you end up w/a 3.89 anyway? Also, why? I'm just curious- I've always wanted slightly taller gearing, ESPECIALLY 5th- of course, mosr HP/TQ would be needed to offset the loss, but, I never think of cars as being over-geared, but UNDER-powered... It would just be difficult for me to drive a daily car w/musch shorter gearing, although I know it would help acceleration- would be great for tighter tracks though.... Also, how did you increase the rev limit- chips? I'm thinking you left them out of the mod equation(?)- what about all the things in the cockpit- did you increase the boost at all? Sounds like you have an excellent pair of cars there....
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3 turbos, why do you have two rear window defrost switches in your 944?
Ahmet |
Robby,
how did you end up w/a 3.89 anyway? Also, why? Because for me: *) it was the only gearing available at the time *) its quicker on the street *) less precieved lag *) it feels like more hp :D *) it is the perfect gearing for my local track *) where in the heck you gonna drive at 165-170mph with standard gearing - I rather put the hp and tq in a narrower bandwidth than have top speed because I can't make use of it anyways You can get your chips programed with your choice of rev limit. My boost right now is about 15lbs - after a new set of chips are burned, it will be optimized at 17 or 18lbs for street - although I'll run 15lbs at the track |
Ahmet 3 turbos, why do you have two rear window defrost switches in your 944?
Ahmet I used that factory switch for another function - I choose that switch because it reminds me of airflow - so I wired that switch to kick in the electric fans when I'm in traffic, if I want to keep the car cooler - because sometimes the fans don't kick in until it is higher than I would like, plus it looks factory:D |
Ahmet,
Good eye!!!:cheers: |
posted by robby:
Anyway, make no mistake about it, a V8 S4 that is putting out full power is pretty damn fast- a 13.5 will beat a stock Turbo S by .7 sec- sure, you can chip a Turbo S & get CLOSE, but still- a chipped S4TT on the other hand, will flat out destroy a chipped 951 w/nothing else, but again, assuming it is in good tune- the S4TT's don't put out near the HP (even chipped, they're only ~310) but, they get the TQ to ~370) & THAT is what get's the axles turning & they are ~200lbs lighter, etc- I love Audis, but I'm not too big on hte new V8's.... I LOVE the S4TT's though- to each his own.... Robby you seem to be forgetting that the 951 with a chip, exhaust and mbc has the advantage because of weight to power. Rule of thumb is 50 crank hp for every 400 pounds. Problem is most 951's are not in tune 17 years and lack of maintainance will do that to a car. Drive a healthy one and you will understand. |
Originally posted by jimbo1111 Robby you seem to be forgetting that the 951 with a chip, exhaust and mbc has the advantage because of weight to power. Rule of thumb is 50 crank hp for every 400 pounds. Problem is most 951's are not in tune 17 years and lack of maintainance will do that to a car. Drive a healthy one and you will understand. In any event- MY 951S sucks- I've had nothing but probs really- I keep it b/c I've dropped a TON of $ into it & have done so many litte things, I could NEVER recover- I keep looking forward to the day when I have it finished, as I KNOW it has great potential- I said something about S4's being all over the place b/c of state ot tune, etc & production variances...well, 951's are the same way- so, you're right- it really depends on many variables for specicif cars, etc- all I'm trying to say is, a stock S4 (either TT or V8) that is in good production condition & broken in well, etc, is a fast car & genuine contender (if not slightly ahead of) a 951S- chip one & you have even MORE- & a GOOD BIT MORE w/TT- the options are endless though- if you've got enough $, you can drive a Pinto that blows away 993TT's all day long, but does that really mean, that if you come across a 993TT & just flat out DESTROY it (b/c the TT wasn't in proper tune) that ALL 993's are slow? Not quite- means a lot of things are at work actually, not to mention that you're driving around in a $300,000 Pinto w/Supra TT engine wedged in, etc.... Hell- don't say it's not possible- look at that Dodge caravan that runs sub 11's.... Ugly son of a bitch, but it IS fast in a straight line...;) Personally, I'd rather be in a stock 951 running 14.5's ANY DAY, but.... :cheers: |
The more I look at these S4's the more I like them. Even though they are a heavy car.
It looks like the v-6 turbos can gain about 45hp with just a chip and air filter upgrade? That puts them up around 295 flywheel HP. Not bad at all to zip around town in each day. And somewhere I read that full boost is around 1850 RPM. correct me if I am wrong. |
Originally posted by bdellis The more I look at these S4's the more I like them. Even though they are a heavy car. It looks like the v-6 turbos can gain about 45hp with just a chip and air filter upgrade? That puts them up around 295 flywheel HP. Not bad at all to zip around town in each day. And somewhere I read that full boost is around 1850 RPM. correct me if I am wrong. :cheers: |
bdellis
The more I look at these S4's the more I like them. Even though they are a heavy car. It looks like the v-6 turbos can gain about 45hp with just a chip and air filter upgrade? That puts them up around 295 flywheel HP. Not bad at all to zip around town in each day. And somewhere I read that full boost is around 1850 RPM. correct me if I am wrong. __________________________________________________________ bdellis, These cars are not the best in any area, but pretty darn close to the top in any area if that makes sense - i.e., not the fastest, but fast, not the best dry handling, but close, etc, etc, But they are a GREAT ALL AROUND CARS!! and can't be beat for winter traction and four passenger comfort - heck its a 4 door sedan. Stock cars tq comes all in at 1850 (258 ft lbs), but chipped cars, at least mine, tq is all in by 2500 (366 ft lbs) A little later, but oh boy what bottom end!:D I'm not saying that there is a slew of bad S4's out there, because there are some, but VERY FEW. People that have trouble with these cars are the same people that have trouble with any car. And they get compared to cars that technically sport cars or cars that are one step up from them like an M3, that is a 2 door, it should be compared to a 330 ix, and M5 should be compared to an RS6 and comparing it to a Z06? It just goes to show you that a S4 is not a bad car at all, to be in the company of cars that it is compared to fair or unfair - plus that fact, that the one's mentioned would never be as good in the winter as the S4 :D :cheers: |
Yea, I am in the market for a daily driver soon. I have a 97 maxima that I love. Its a 5spd pretty well modified. But I would like something a little nicer. Front wheel drive is getting a bit old too.
I had considered a 2000 plus S4 or perhaps an A6. Its good to hear good info on them. www.eopinions.com has real good feedback on them too. |
S4 - most definitely! My A6 2.7T is awsome. No comparision to a 951.
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When I started this thread I was looking for a daily driver with more or similar power than my 951. I could use my 02 Camry as daily driver but it lacks power, it’s an extremely reliable car but it’s dull like hell, very emotionless vehicle. Well to make the story short I had seen this nice looking 00 S4 near my house in a used car dealer with very low miles, well finally I took the car for a spin here are my feelings about the S4;
The S4 is a very refined vehicle, the interior is quite attractive, and outside the style is sporty and elegant. The S4 is much quicker that the 951 off the line no doubt about that , the handling is surprisingly good for a 4 door car, still you can feel the extra weight when taking tight turns(I scare the hell out of the salesman). The response is almost instantly compared to the 951. I do feel that from a rolling stop my 951 will have the edge over the S4. (944T are so hard to take fast off the line, but once running I’m certain that my Porsche will pull away from the Audi( But I don’t want a car for ¼ mile runs anyway and I don’t believe you can measure performance by ¼ mile times). Overall, the feeling is that the S4 is a great sport sedan and only that . The 951 in the other side comes alive much harder and it feels faster from a rolling start. I will keep my money pit (951) I finally bought an engine from John Forbes at black forest Racing is coming next Monday, hopefully by next January I'll riding my 951 again after 4 blown heads, and a broken ring I was about to give up but nevertheless the beast will live again. I thought about buying the S4 because it’s newer than my 86 944T and perhaps more reliable, but if I want reliability I'll buy a Toyota. But for fun and burned oil smell and the kick of boost I'll keep my 951 until I am bankrupt or divorce. Thanks for all the replies. Luis |
I'm sorry, but I HAVE to say this- first, I'm NOT trying to say that ANY car is BETTER than another OR that a 951 is NOT a great car, BUT- a 951 does NOT get ANY faster at speed (after a standing start) than BEFORE- it just does not happen- for some reason,many on this list seem to think that since the 951 is not a dragster, that they have to let it prove it self somehow at higher speeds- IF the car does not beat another at the 1/4, then, it will not beat that car at higher speeds- this is almost definate- there ARE MINOR discrepancies b/t certain speeds & certain shift points, etc... The 951 does AMAZINGLY WELL from a standing start & anyone saying otherwise does not know how to launch one properly- for a car that has a 1:12.5 HP/weight ratio (Turbo S) a 14.2 1/4 mile is pretty damn good- esepcially for a turbo, which will cost a 1/10 of a second or so, but... take into consideration it's 0-60. the Turbo S ran a 5.5- that's consistent w/a 14.0 1/4- the M3 E36 ran a 5.5 & a 14.0 in '96 & up. 95 M3's were 5.7 or so & 14.2 - 14.5- the M3 actually gets along better at higher ranges, based on this, than the Turbo S- the M3 ran to 130 in 28.1 in an early C&D- the Turbo S ran 0-120 in 22.1 in C&D & THAT was w/the 3.89FD which shortened all gears & enhanced acceleration- the top speed was redlined at ~145.... The S4 in C&D (10/01) ran 0-60 in 5. 5 & a 14.2 @ 97 1/4 & 0-120 in 23.1- that 1/4 is a slow speed for an S4 & the 120 is, subsequently, slightly slow, BUT, a very good match for a Turbo S, much less a Turbo OR a 968CS (M030) which BOTH would take WELL over 30 secs to reach 130 & the Turbo S would even be hard pressed to break 130 in <30secs- should be close, but...
I'm not trying to rag anyone, but, DAMN- I'm just scratching my head to find out why everyone insists that these cars are super-cars at high speeds- if 0-120 isn't a high speed, then what is? 130? 140? where do we call it higher speeds? Most people seem to think that it starts around 70 & goes to ~120 or so, like a highway speed burst...WELL... IF the S4 & Turbo S BOTH run to 60 in 5.5, then, the rest of the way b/t 60 & 120 is STILL ~23 - 5.5, which is the EXACT SAME for BOTH cars.... The 951 certainly doesn't spool up as quickly as the S4 & is not nearly as quick around town, but, that's b/c you're not flooring it from light to light all day long- you get a good launch & the 951 does JUST fine for it's HP:weight ratio- There are PLENTY of people on this list claiming mid 13's w/JUST chips....of course, the S4 is a good half second ahead w/it's chips, but... Anyway, I'm not trying to rag anyone....just stating the facts- unless you've got a strange gearing situation or SOMETHING, then, the dif b/t cars at high speeds will be predictable by their difs at low speeds- this is why drag racers depend so much on their 60ft times- they KNOW that if they reduce their 60ft times by a 1/10 of a second, that it will get them so much faster through the traps.... also, w/street cars in the 4.0-8.0 0-60 range, the 1/4 mile is pretty much the exact same dif as 0-60. In other words- a 6.5 0-60 is ~15.0 1/4. A 5.5 0-60 is ~14.0 1/4. A 4.5 0-60 is ~13.0 1/4- much below this & the formula doesn't really hold true anymore, but... At any rate, BOTH the 951 AND S4 can be EXCELLENT cars IMO.... |
With my first 951, I had nothing but good luck with the car, I ran the car hard all the time no blown heads or nothing like that, but my clutch would slip so bad even after being replaced with a cup kit, so I sold the car, with my current car the clutch engages properly without slippage but my motor has gave me nothing more than nightmares. I saw a video sometime ago on Rennlist of a drag race between a Red 951 and a Ford Fairlane 500 (I think, but I could be wrong)on the drag strip, the Ford took off much faster but acceleration remained even until the end, the 951 lost the race but you could see the 944t catching up with the Ford. If that would have been a rolling start I KNOW as anybody that have seen the video the outcome would have been different. I need some help on this matter from older rennlist members maybe they can point out to that specific race. I know from reading this forum and my personal experience that launching a 944t is not a easy task and you could end up with a broken axle, cv joint or a burned clutch but I am a
Newbie let the experts correct me on this matter. Thanks Luis |
Sure, there will be an immediate difference- getting through 1st is the hardest part & launching a 951 isn't exactly easy, BUT, it CAN be done effectively & is not INCREDIBLY hard- I guess it varies from driver to driver- I used to drive a 118HP/103TQ 1st gen Integra, so, I was already used to a car w/out low end- the Integra had NOTHING below 4K- sound familiar?:) The only benefit IT had was shorter gearing- 1st redlined (@ 7K) ~33mph, whereas the 951 is 40mph. That's a tall gear for a drag car considering it's low end TQ- okay, let me try to explain, but, REMEMBER, I am NOT a physics master NOR do I claim to know everything about this, so, some of my take on this may be slightly incorrect, BUT, it's based on my fairly limited experience AND the decent amount of car mag reading, etc, I've done...
When you launch a car, you want to hit PEAK TQ- right NOW- I mean, IMMEDIATELY. A stcik shift car, however, deos not idle at peak TQ (well, I don't know of any- the S4 is the closest I'm AWARE of: ~1750rpms)- let's consider the 951 S- usually idles ~1k- peak TQ is 4K (normal 951 is 3500 & 5800 for HP). NOW, the idea is to get to 4K IMMEDIATELY! What you want to do is eliminate ANY waiting to get to this point- when get to this point, the engine is in it's zone from ~4k to ~6k- this is gear dependent b/c of the actual point you want to grab the NEXT gear, but, it's ~4k - 6k for most in 951s- the perfect shift involves a combination/comprimise b/t being in the gear you're already in vs the point at which you will enter the NEXT gear when you shift & your ability to spend the most time in each gear's perfect zone- you really want to be in the lowest gear possible, as it transfers more TQ- that's all a gear is, a MULTIPLIER... EX: 951 has 3.38FD- 1st gear is 3.50- so 1st gear's overall ratio (OA) is 11.83, so: 11.83 X 258 = 3052 ft/lbs TQ @ 4K- there are other variables, like tire RD, etc- 2nd gear multiplies LESS TQ- it's 2.06, so the OR is 6.96 ft/lbs TQ @ 4K, & so forth... cars w/shorter gears (higher numerically) will be even stronger b/c of this- 993TT redlines 1st ~33mph- the only way it gets away w/this w/400HP/TQ is b/c it's AWD, otherwise, it would need slicks- S4 has similar short gearing- BOTH 6-speeds, so, they can have such short gears & STILL have nice cruising gears- best of both worlds- too bad Porsche did the 968's the way they did.... So, you want to get to peak TQ as soon as possible- ANY time spent ANYWHERE other than in that zone is time wasted- unfortunately, the 951 S, being a turbo, takes a little time to get to 4k- you idle ~1k, so you've got ~3K to get through- let's say you roll off the start, OR, get going to 5mph & THEN floor it- the clutch will be FULLY engaged, as you are rolling, etc & the engine will BOG like hell- the way to do it is to rev the car (at a dead stop) to ~3K & let the clutch out fast, but don't just POP it- carefully modulate the clutch to TRY to control wheelspin a little & you're GONE- the wheels are going to spin- w/out LSD, this is much more problematic, as the ONE wheel will spin & will do so more uncontrollably- it amazes me, sometimes, that non-LSD cars can even come close to staying w/LSD cars in 1/4 mile tests, etc, w/pro drivers, BUT, they do- they DO lose some time. Anyway, w/LSD, the tires will spin, but, you should be glued to your seat- if the wheels are spinning SO HARD that the car isn't even moving, you've either got a SERIOUS amount of HP/TQ, crappy tires, or you're revving the hell out of the car & just popping the clutch- I played w/mine one night in a parking lot- was going slightly uphill & revved to ~4k & basically popped it- not completely, but pretty much- the wheels spun pretty hard- enough to leave two ~90ft marks (yes, I measured- across ~11 full parking spaces) & there was a little white smoke, BUT, I came out of the hole like a rocket- I've launched it more effectively, but, it STILL came out faster than letting the clutch out gently & then flooring it. You see, when the tires are spinning a little, the car is STILL moving- the engine is also moving enough to be close to it's TQ band & by the time the clutch is fully engaged, you should be moving enough to pretty much be at peak TQ- this means, you only have another second to grab 2nd gear. IF you just get off the clutch as quickly as possible, w/out spinning tires, etc, you will bog the engine- your idle is ~1K- 1K in 1st is moving ~6.3mph, so, to be moving in 1st w/the clutch completely engaged (w/OUT the engine bucking, etc) you will have to be moving at least 6mph- THEN, you will have to work your way through 3K more rpms to get to peak TQ- this will take a few seconds for the turbo to spool up, etc- had you launched it, you wouldn't have to wait- the only waiting there is to get fulll traction :) This, BTW, is also why a car will run from 0-60 faster than it will run from 5-60. Anyone here ever seen magazine tests where they show all the various speed accel times? How about the ones that include the 5-60 test? Well, check it out- the 0-60 time will be faster... I've NEVER seen it any other way & this is specifically the reason- @ 5mph, the car is rolling & flooring it results in slow accel until the peak TQ, BUT, launching the car will have you at that point already & shoot the car out of the hole... Another good example- SCC did a GREAT test several years ago- they tested 6 cars- 2 FWD, 2 RWD, & 2 AWD. They tested them in several ways in bothj wet & dry conditions- they did track testing, slalom, LA, 0-60 & 1/4 mile, etc.... They wanted to know just how much it really mattered where the drive wheels were. Some of the results were interesting- for one, FWD didn't help traction at all, but, we on the RL probably all EXPECTED that- FWD is marketing hype- my 951S can get going (straight anyway) in ice/snow that my Integra could- the LSD is probably the biggest reason. Usually, FWD will help on REALLY slick surfaces, b/c the car is being accelerated SO SLOWLY, that the weight of the car will not redistribute itself any, so the weight will basically stay over the drive wheels- the BEST will ALWAYS be 911's, since even the slightest amount of re-distribution will go TO the drive wheels :) AWD is even better, of course... Anyway, when it came to the AWD cars, they had an Eagle Talon AWD Turbo modded to ~400HP & an Audi A4 1.8L turbo w/chips (& I THINK a larger turbo w/ ~250HP, but would have to check on that). Anyway, BOTH of these cars were faster from 0-60 (& by extension the 1/4 mile, of course) the WET surface. Now, keep in mind, this is not to say "greasy" wet, or "icy" wet, etc, BUT, plain wet- the dif was minimal- ~1/10 sec, but, the fact that the cars were even AS FAST begs hte question "WHY?" Well, they explain it by saying, basically exactly what I have- the AWD is so good at transfering HP/TQ, that it will not allow all 4 tires to spin- they will for a second, but,the Audi even has some sort of traction control, so that IF the wheels DO spin, the brake slows down the wheel that is spinning, etc- I always consider traction controls as being "negative wheel spinning control" while LSD's are "positive wheel spinning control" b/c the traction control SLOWs the fastest wheel, whereas the LSD shifts power FROM the fastest TO the slowest to try to help it "catch up" IF that makes sense. Anyway, the AWD's were catching their wheelspin SO quickly, that the engine was bogging- on the wet surface, the wheels were able to spin enough to get closer to the TQ peak so that acceleration was maximized- as I said, it was a minimal dif, BUT, it's STILL interesting IMO- the engine bogged just enough in the dry to slow it down.... This, in a nutshell, is the reason why a car NEEDS to have some wheelspin to maximize it's speed- last example- the legendary 959- I have a C&D test of it several years later where they were getting mid 12's @ 1/4 which was a good half sec slower than expected- they talked w/a guy who had helped engineer the car. 959's have 6-speeds- 1-5 & "G" which stands for "gerrande" or something(?)- it is for the slipperiest of surfaces- they normally start in 1st, which, IIRC, is where 2nd normally is- G is where 1st would be, but is VERY short- I'm not sure it's any shorter than 993/996 TT's, but... It ALSO has 4 diff settings- not sure which order, but there was basically open w/LSD for rears for dry weather- slightly more locked for wet, even more locked for snow & ice, & basically fully locked for mud. The guy said to put it in fully locked, start in "G," rev the engine to 7K, pop the clutch & get ready to shift- they tried this- it wasn't THEIR car ;) & immediately ran sub 12's... Sooo, the spinning thing DOES have SOME merit... As for comparing lower speed (standing start, etc) acceleration to higher speed accel, when comparing times from 0-60, 1/4 mile, 0-120, 0-130, 0-150, etc, the 951 stays pretty consistent all the way up- it surely has AOME points where it is slightly faster than other cars that might be a little better off the line, but, I'm saying, that w/in REASON, the 951 does about as well off the line (when launched effectively) as it does at really high speeds- sure, eventually, the TOP speed will allow it to outaccelerate many cars- VERY FEW cars were able to top 162 15yrs ago- not a ton of cars TODAY can do it- this is a byproduct of several things- the decent (not excellent, btu decent) Cx of .33- the rather low frontal area (not excessively low, but decently low) of 20.4 & the gearing vs the HP peak & where everything comes together just right- the regular 951 has 30 fewer ponies & they peak ~200rpm sooner (5800 vs 6000). 6K is ~157, so, 162 is slightly above, but STILL pretty close. The normal turbo peaking @ 5800 (that's ~152) w/30 less HP allows the car to run to ~155. IF the HP peaked @6K, I wonder if the regular turbo would top out higher(?). Throw chips at either one & the top speed (IF the HP doesn't drop off quickly after 6k) should be close to the rev limiter (IF you STILL have one)- I've heard of several people claim they could hit 170 w/chips- if in good tune w/good chips, etc, this SHOULD be possible- AGAIN, IF the HP doesn't drop off, as redline is 6400 @ 167... Anyway, otherwise, the acceleration for all the various speeds lines up pretty well w/everything else out there w/similar #'s.... Any input or technical opinions welcome- I'm always open to learn new stuff & I'm sure there's more to all this that I know.... sorry this got so long.... :cheers: |
Here is my race example of my 951S vs a 2000 S4 with APR tuning and some major engine work. I have a buddy of mine with a silver S4 running about 365hp and I have a 89 951S with some goodies. My car at the time was gutted slightly(back seats, radio, AC, racing seats in front), has some head work, chip, boost controller, tial wastegate, test pipe, fabspeed exhaust, and a couple small goodies here and there. Well he claimed he could smoke my 944 from a start and that i could only beat him on the highway. We decided we would do two runs, one from a standstill and one from a 70mph roll....here are the outcomes...
From the start...As we lined up I reved to about 3500rpms, light turned green and off we went, i slipped the clutch out a little and got a kinda crappy launch, he jumped on me for a second with his damn awd and had me for about 1/2 a car until i hit my boost, i pulled about even as we were heading into 2nd, as 2nd ended i had put about 3/4 of a car on him, by the time i shut down in 3rd i had pulled another car on him, making it about 2 cars. I proved his point wrong and he didnt complain about his launch, i can have him register on the forum to vouge for it..... Now on the highway.... at 70mph we honked 3 times and off we went, i pulled him hard now. AWD isnt highway friendly and by the time we shut off at about 135mph i had put well over 3 cars on him, maybe pulling close to 3.5 or 4. So i am going to say that a 951 with similar mods to the S4 will be faster... That being said i love the S4, but you are comparing apples and oranges. I almost bought an S4 when i was buying my previous street car (bmw 325Xi), but decided not to. I love the S4, but my 951 kicks major butt!!! |
robby I disagree about your launch statement.
try launching 315 + ft lbs to the wheels with no lsd and street tires all with a car that has a very light end. i.e. - tires will only grip in third and up (unless you very skillfully finesse it, which means wasted power) if I raced an s4 from a stop I would get stomped. highway is a totally different story. |
Okay When this thread started and I frist posted.....I was talking about my friend's s4....since our race then(which he won 70mph-125mph) I have dialed in a little more boost and finished out the tune. I told him about this thread and it inspired us to race again and see who the winner is. His car is a 2001 model....he has upgraded chip's,exhaust,intake,and upgraded the turbo's.....he is currently running 17psi of boost.His car made over 360 ground hp...and almost 400tq My car and mod's are a little harder to come by ...as I do not know if my car has a built motor or not...you see My car is a 88' model and while sending my car to lindsey for upgrade's.....dave ordered the chips burnt for and 88 model and they didnt fit....it turn's out there is a 86 engine in my car. It also turns out that my car was raced by the Upchurch Brother's in PCA. I have over 20k in receipt's .....all of the work very hard to tell....just simply say's "installed customer supplied part"...I know the turbo has been redone but once again don't know if it is stock or not. I do for sure know I have lsd,built tranny,perfromance syncro's, poly bushing's,450lb springs, bilsiein shock's...and a few other misc. thing's. I have put a stage 2 maf,55lb injector's,power perfect fuel controller, pro-m,full three inch exhaust including 3 inch downpipe,kokeln chip's,dual port 46mm wastegate,20psi of boost, and some other misc...stuff like boost controller...ect.ect. We ran twice once from a 40 kick...to 130mph.....we were very close...until about top or third shifting to fourth...around 100 I started pulling...I put about 5 or 6 car's on him. The second run we ran from a 70mph kick...to 140mph ......I started pulling from the start and put about 9 to 10 length's on him. His car run's very strong.....he hasent been to the track yet....but think's somewhere in the low to mid 12's range. I believe my car to be around the same in the quater mile......but, up top my car was the dominant. I do not know how much hp my car make's......some of the friend's I have raced...think around 360-380 at the wheel's.......I however......don't think it is that high....but, that's what they say. I do believe my car is capable of mid 12's in the quater...just because I got 14.0 when it was stock and 13.8 when I was stock of 13.5psi of boost.trapping 99mph the first and 102 the second. I hope to get my software soon....cause I have ton's of video footage..of me racing...some road racing....soon 1/4 mile dragging....and alot on the freeway. S4's are ****ing badass...plan and simple.....brad's car walk's c5's for breakfast,munche's on ls1's for lunch, and has modded turbocharged sti's, and evo's for dinner I also have video of him beating a ls6(zo6 vette for you that don't know) his car is fast clean...and is a sleeper....if I could have his car and mine...I would....which is what I might do someday...but, for now...I think I will stick to my 951:cheers:
:burnout: :burnout: happy boosting everyone....wheither you do it in a audi or porsche....my hat is off to you.:bigbye: |
Originally posted by emwporsche robby I disagree about your launch statement. try launching 315 + ft lbs to the wheels with no lsd and street tires all with a car that has a very light end. i.e. - tires will only grip in third and up (unless you very skillfully finesse it, which means wasted power) if I raced an s4 from a stop I would get stomped. highway is a totally different story. |
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My Ruf 90 NA cabriolet will turn 12.6s at 112 in the 1/4 mile. I only have about 300 hp, but about 290 in torque with a great torque curve.
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I have an '86 944 turbo with some mods.
I was talking about having trouble lanching my car, compared to an s4 |
Doug- that's VERY IMPRESSIVE! Nice job... Looks like you have slightly taller gearing than a 951- I like tall gearing, despite the fact that it's not as good for acceleration, but, sometimes, given the right ratios & HP/TQ, you can get better times to certain speeds/distances, etc- I just never think of a car as having too tall gearing- only UNDERPOWERED in that case :D I mean, it's obvious that cars w/less low end TQ & lower HP levels, etc, will need shorter gears than another car- it all comes down to a ton of variables really... Anyway, that's one fast 911NA....
emwporsche- you said: "try launching 315 + ft lbs to the wheels with no lsd and street tires all with a car that has a very light end" I asked what car b/c the 951 really shouldn't have a light rear end- they were advertised & written up in magazine tests as having perfect 50/50 dist, but, most people who've corner balanced them have put them closer to 51/49- the 968 was 48.5/51.5, AND, I recently came across some articles were a few 944's were corner balanced- there initial distributions were: 944NA: 49.2/50.8 & a 944S2: 49.6/50.4. I have talked w/some guys who say their 951's were ~49/51, although the 951's disadvatage is the turbo itself- the parts all add up to a few lbs & the intercooler is at the farthest possible forward point- the 944S2 engine weighs ~370lbs, whereas the 968's weighs ~380lbs & the 951 weighs 404- the 968, of course, ALSO has the benefit (weight distributionwise that is) of having a beefier trans (w/EXTRA gear) so that adds a few more lbs to the rear. At any rate, in general, these cars are really ABOUT as good it it gets as far as weight dist goes, short of mid & rear engine cars. Nonetheless, I understand what you're saying- it's not the EASIEST car to launch & these cars really don't show their strength in off-the-line drags- they do better in 3rd gear roll-on races, etc- BUT, what I was saying (& this is where I have a prob w/you're disagreement), is that if you check the #'s, they add up pretty well- the Turbo S ran a 5.5 0-60 (I don't care HOW hard it is to launch or what will outdrag what, a 5.5 0-60 is a 5.5 0-60)- the Turbo S ALSO ran the 1/4 in 14.2 & if you'll look around & check some stats, you'll see that that's pretty much DEAD-ON the $ w/what it should be- any car out there that runs a 5.5 0-60 will run relatively close (w/in several 1/10th's, if it's a fairly normal street car w/street gearing etc) will run ~14.2 @ the 1/4. An E36 M3 will run 0-60 in 5.5 & run a 14.0 @ 1/4 but that car has short gearing & that helps it up high, combinded w/it's low Cx & frontal area, etc- those cars (96 & up) were FAST- of course, it's much easier to get a consistent launch w/the M3, but, if done correctly, the Turbo S & M3 should be right beside each other by 60 & the M3 will be showign tail lights by 100 (but only ~2 car lengths) & should get worse as speed increases until ~150 when the M3 runs out of gear assuming its not governed earlier). One thing to note- Porsche normally estimates their speeds about right, but, the original prototype Turbo S that was tested must have been much stronger- factory literature estimates it as running 13.5 @ 1/4, but that never happened in production vehicles- the fastest I've EVER seen one run was a 13.9 in C&D & THAT was b/c it had shorter gearing, which I assume is what Porsche had originally intended- it was a 3.65FD vs 3.38FD which limited top speed to ~145- 0-60 didn't benefit b/c the shift to 3rd came right before, but it still ran an identical 5.5, but, by the 1/4, it was 3/10's (~3 car lengths) ahead- I personally think that if gearing were made slightly TALLER, that it MIGHT have had the same effect at the 1/4- maybe not quite as much, but, maybe a 14.0, only b/c the shift into 4th comes right before crossing the line too- in this case, it would probably be better for YOU, since you have so much more HP/TQ- might make it a little easier to get traction in 2nd- it's all a trade-off though- I like the idea of having ~500+ RWHP/TQ & redlines somewhere in the area of: 1st- 50, 2nd- 80, 3rd- 122.5, 4th- 165, 5th- 207.5, OR, even better, a 6-sp w/: 1st- 45, 2nd- 75, 3rd- 110, 4th- 145, 5th- 170, 6th- 215 & w/THAT much HP/TQ, you SHOULD be able to make use of all that :D But, back to reality... I'm hoping for an honest 300+RWHP/TQ w/simple bolt-ons, etc & w/that, I'll hopefully break into the high 12's @ >110 & be able to break 180 top speed (w/S2 5th gear- .78). I see what you're saying, & you're right, that the 951 could be a little more launch-friendly, &, you DEFINATELY need a LSD of some sort... :) sorry- didn't mean to type another book... |
John- that's some cool stuff- I didn't see your last reply until just now- IF you really pulled him 9-10 full car lengths than you should have no trouble getting in the low 12's, maybe high 11's, @ the 1/4, if he can hit low 12's, which he'd HAVE to be capable of to be able to beat Z06's. the 993/996TT are >400HP/TQ & w/AWD, twin turbos, & SHORT gearing are ~12.2 avg, so for a 951 to do it would mean AT LEAST 400HP/TQ at the crank & PROBABLY more, unless it's MUCH lighter or gearing's been screwed with- the original Prototype 951S had shorter gearing- a 3.65 vs 3.38 which is one reasson why Porsche literature said the Turbo S ran a 13.5 @ 1/4- the production ones were 14.2 except for the one tested in C&D where they had to drive an individual's car & the particular customer had specially ordered the car w/Euro 3.65 FD- it ran a 13.9- it's 0-60 was exactly the same though, 5.5, as the shift to 3rd came ~55mph...
Please keep me informed on your progress- I'd love to hear how you do if/when you run it again- PM me & I'll send you my e-mail address, etc... Do you have a G-tech? if so, will you do a 60-0 test for distance? I'd also like to hear any cool progress on your friend's S4- I would LOVE to have an S4 in addition to my 951S... :cool: |
the 951 will run away and hide from the s4 on a road course, or on a windy road.
the s-4 is a front heavy and pushy FWD biased platform...the whole damn motor is in front of the front spindle centerline; the cooling is marginal at elevated temps... the stock brake calipers belong on the end of chains hanging from the front of small boats they push like hell they weigh WAY too much did i mention that they push like hell? if you are buying a street car, buy the audi....if you want to go fast on a race track, buy something that was meant to do so. sure the audi makes power, and has tremendous grip, but unless its raining, a well driven 951 with similar level of power will just drive away. go look at the season one otc lap times from the race prepped S-4...transponders dont lie....between 2 and 4 seconds a lap slower EVERYWHERE than other t-3 cars (like NA 944s and early (E30) M3s. they are great cars, but they just are not fast on a roadcourse |
Hey robby. Whoa this thread is really old. I re read that post and that was in the second week on janurary. I guess I haden't gotten any videos up yet at that point. I don't have a g-tech. But, I can tell you my 0-60 would prolly be crap. I really don't launch my car that much. I have been to the track a couple of times when I was close to stock but, I haven't been back in a while. I wouldn't want to launch that hard on my clutch with the hp...cause I don't know if he upgraded it when he replaced it.....he might have just bought a oem one. Although it bites hard and feel solid. Yeah that second run I had him by 10 lenth's for sure. But, we also went from 70mph and ran to 140mph. That's strickly highway racing. If me and him were to race in the 1/4 I bet we would be very very close. Him taking me outta the hole and me trying to play catch up. As far as the hp claim go's who know's. My friends all swear 360-380rwhp but, that is just way to strong of a #. I really don't think its that high. I mean 380rwhp mean's I would be getting 437 hp to the crank on 15% drivetain loss. 437hp for me is a hard # to swallow. Maybe If I knew I had a big turbo and race gas...and 20+psi of boost.....I might be able to believe that. We will see. The car is at perry's(our family porsche mechanic) and he is doing a complete winter check up for me. Changing all the fluid's oil,coolant,gear oil,brake fluid. Flushing the cooling system. Checking everything from head to toe with a tune-up....making sure I am good to go when the weather clear's up. Whenever I do get it back and get a free saturday I will have the car dyno'd and then all speculation will be laid to rest FINALLY!. Right now I gotta figure out what kind of tire setup I am going with. I think I will use my phone dial's with some hoosier's this year...and maybe by some new kuhmo rubber for the 17's. Does anyone know what track slick's cost for our car's??? How long do that last before replacing them? I would be tracking the car twice a month. I have seen alot of guy's driving on their street rims and tires and when they get to the track they switch out to their race setup. I think this is what I want to do this year.
Yeah his s4 is ****ing sick! I mean sick. It's so clean.... I absolutely love it. I really do think he is going to hit low 12's this year. He is also talking alot of **** to me....about how I might be king of the tollway...but, he would eat me for breakfast at the drag strip.lol. He also says he plans on going to some sort of stand alone managent....throwing some race fuel in there and turning up the boost on my a** lol. If we do run again I will try and get a passenger so I can film it. He said he really likes my car and is considering trying to find one to play around with soon. So maybe I can finally have a friend of mine who has the same car....would be kinda cool. |
John- W/my reference to the g-tech, I meant 60-0, not 0-60- I'd like to hear some more braking distances for these cars... Let us know what happens...
mumzer- I agree w/pretty much everything you've said, only, I haven't been able to find any lap times for any tracks or courses that I'm familiar enough with the 951 to compare- do you know how a professionally driven S4 would run WS? I agree it's VERY heavy & the push part, etc is rough, but, understeer can be taken care of fairly easily (to a point of course) AND can be learned to deal with & corrected for (again, to a point)- I would agree that the 951 is normally a better choice for track-only too, although I didn't think that's really the main question in this thread- but one thing I DO stress is the simplicity of hitting HIGH 12's in an S4 is a LOT easier than a 951- just chips & your're right at the 13.0 mark & you're MUCH MUCH more comfortable doing it w/a MUCH more streetable car... It all comes down to what you want & several people have mentioned it's like comparing apples to oranges- in a way, they're right- I think the best answer is to just own one of each (or two, or three, or...) :D :cheers: |
I had an S4 and a TT 225. All three of my 911s will run away and hide from those cars in the straights and forget about it in the twisties.
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Originally posted by Doug H I had an S4 and a TT 225. All three of my 911s will run away and hide from those cars in the straights and forget about it in the twisties. :cheers: |
Doug H
I have a lot of seattime in the 964s and the 3.6 996s and unless your Ruf is turbocharged my S4 will pull easily from both cars up to 160mph.Granted it is heavily modified with Rs4 parts but the key is proper Ecu tuning which the majority of US Audi tuners lack. So most modded S4s have a ton of expensive parts on them but a weaksauce Ecu and thats why they are not performing the way they should unless you use racegas. My 951s has only chip/catbypass and is currently slower than the S4 ,but I agree with you in the twisties,it is simply to heavy and the best coilover is not gone save you. |
1988952
The S4 won't out run my 951. Neither will any factory production version a 911 in any flavor. Not even close. And this goes for both on and off the racetrack. TonyG |
Tony G,
I am not sure if you are kidding or not but you cannot tell me with astraight face that your car ( professional driven) will beat a properly set up Gt2/3 ,also professional driven. BTW, I have never claimed that my S4 is faster than your car,that should be a no brainer, you have a huge advantage in the power/weight ratio. If I still would live in LA I would have invited you to one of our trackdays in Willow Springs which the dealership I used to work at organized, lots of heavy duty hardware there and drivers like Cort Wagner. |
I wouldn't be so doubtful 1988952, there was a guy who raced a 951 in the Porsche Cup down here in Oz a few years back who was winning races ahead of pros in gt3s and rs/cs's...
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Hahaha, I did not mean to be a wise ass so to speak. I also need to be careful when talking about other brands because even though this is a Porsche board, people are sensitive about other brands. My S4 and TT 225 were chipped. They were fun cars but too heavy. More of a GT than a true sports car.
I saw the European S4 shoot out and only 2 of the cars were sub 12.6 in the 1/4 and both of those had something 425 hp at the wheels. The ones with close to stock hp at the wheels were 14s and 15s in the 1/4 mile. Let's see the numbers if you have a fast S4. That is my reason for posting up my numbers is to get comparisons, but I would like to see numbers as opposed to claims. My 964 is heavily modified and not just bolt on. My goal with this car is forced induction performance without going forced induction. This car easily pulled away from a brand new M3 convertible in the 40 - 70 range and I easily took him off the line from 0 - 60. This car runs 4.6 to 4.7 0 - 60. There is about $ 15k wrapped up in the engine and a Lenz system is going on in March or as soon as the Lenz system for the 964 is ready for release in the USA. The above is really baseline numbers and I am trying to either get feed back or find other 1/4 mile numbers to see where I currently stand before spending another $ 7k to $ 8k on the Lenz system. Unfortunately, there are not a lot of 1/4 mile baseline numbers in either the 964 or 996 forums. My 996 has an air kit and Febspeed exhaust and also does in the 4.6 to 4.8 range 0 - 60. My 03 TT is bone stock and runs 4.0 to 4.2 on the G Tech. The 996 C2s are very strong out of the box and mine ran 4.9 to 5.0s on the G-tech before its mods. |
Doug- Those sound like incredible cars- what's the Lenz system anyway? As for #'s, unfortunately, they aren't posted much on ANY of these boards- people just generally like to make blanket statements like "...my car's faster than your car..." & "...my car will eat ANY such & such car for lunch..." etc... #'s aren't perfect, b/c at dif altitudes, etc, #'s can be dif, but, they do give a slight baseline. But, as w/any brand I guess, you have people wanting to bring up the strong points ONLY- for the 951, people will say that it's not designed to be a dragster, if you bring up times that they feel aren't stellar #'s- they'll mention handling & brakes- then, bring up a car that can outhandle them & they'll move to the age of the 951 argument- mention the fact that hte distances aren't any better than many average cars of today & it's the same thing, OR, "well, 951's have better TRACK brakes"- which MAY be true in many instances, BUT, how many of the 951's on this list are ever REALLY tracked? I know there are a few, but, the majority will never even make it to the parking lot of a track, much less race it- that's not a knock at the car or any of the people here, but, merely a point. These are cool cars that can be made to be really cool, but, there are other's out there too that the same can be said about...
1988852- the S4 does seem to be better at USING it's power- I'm sure that PART of it is b/c of the AWD, but, not all- the stock S4 has almost IDENTICAL HP/TQ to a Turbo S & is slightly faster at the 1/4 DESPITE carrying an extra 550lbs or so... It runs 0-120 in almost identical times too, so THAT's why I say it's NOT just the launch- it accelerates from 100-120 or so in almost the exact same amount of time... As for chips- I've often wondered about that- they seem to tune them incredibly well for the stock system- you get >50HP & >100TQ w/simple chip upgrade- of course, many of the S4's w/more mods, like larger turbos, etc, don't seem to get much more at all- doesn't seem like the ECU tuning is optimium for anything else. The stock cars run ~14.0 & the chipped cars run b/t ~12.9 & 13.1 & much above that seems to cost a FORTUNE. Of course, there aren't many 951's that brake into the 12's from what I've seen- they DO have more traction probs off the line, but, they shouldn't be any worse off than any other RWD cars, as their weight dist is about as good as it gets for front engine. also, many 951's MAY be faster through the twisties, but, they aren't as easy to drive fast- the S4 is definately a more stable car to drive hard on regular roads- many people forget that it's not always about which car has the highest limits, but, sometimes it's about which car can be driven more comfortably- I don't think there's much debate in THIS category- again, apples to oranges... The RS6 is a good example of extreme HP limited by extreme weight- any car that's pushing 450HP & well over 400TQ that has trouble w/breaking the 13.0 barrier needs a DIET IMO. Kind of like the M5- that car was hailed to be one of the most incredible things on the planet YEARS before it was released- it's "400HP" made it fast, but, I for one was expecting competition for 993996TT's- didn't happen did it? W/4300lbs to carry, how could it? The RS6 is the same- of course, slightly faster in most tests- the best I've seen was a 12.8IIRC- maybe a 12.6- but that E55 is now the king of the heavyweights. Funny to say that about a Mercedes IMO, but, give credit where credit is due... I've just always thought of the 951 as being heavy, & at 3150lbs, it's not exactly light, but, compared to THESE cars it's a featherweight... I guess it's all relative... |
Lenz is basically a stand alone fuel management system. It is like having a custom programed chip, but has a heck of a lot more tuning points. I can also use a lap top in the car to make minor tweeks and etc. and it records all data constantly so that it can be downloaded and checked for optimal timing, A/F and etc. It includes a larger throttle body with a Venturi. The full kit has cams, custom exhaust and etc. I already have a custom exhaust, light weight pistons, valves, titnaium springs and guides, updated connecting rods and etc. I am hitting high number very quick be getting an early drop off and am hoping that the Lenz system will basically optimize my A?F and timing to achieve maximum performance at each RPM or stroke of the engine. I have over simplified it because I am not extremely technical, but I know I will be able to hook up a lap top and be a rcier extraordinaire like the Fast and Furious guys.
Here is the website. http://www.lenzmotorentechnikusa.com/ I will be doing the full kit or the 340 hp version. My car should achieve more because of what has already been done to the motor. The 340 kit is basically what one should hope to achieve by optimzing a stock 3.6 motor. I have also driven the 3.2 with a Lenz and it was a rocket with huge amounts of torque. My 964 will actually be one of the first or the first in the USA market and Jerry Desmond will apparently assist in the installation to get it right since it will be one of their first. |
Doug I want your car's! OMG very very nice. I think if I could have any 911 it would be a 97(993) turbo s. Aside from that a nice used 996tt can be had for 70-80k. I think thats a serious bargin. I hope to have a serious porsche collection going by the time I am 30. I only have had three porsche's and all of them have been cheep to purchase. I only have about 18-20k in my current 951. Ofcourse most of that is paint, seat's,rim's ect.ect. Since that # includes the purchase price of the car I think that is seriously cheep. I like the 951's cause its the best bang for the buck. I turn 22 in june so I got a little while. I plan on staying single as long as I can so I can buy all of my toys. I am currently in the market for a nice 928 gt. I want three 911's a turbo slantnose, a 993tt, and a 996tt. Maybe some day I will have my nice Porsche collection. I could always go rob a bank hmmmm........lol. Anyways I just wanted to say from one car guy to another thats a very nice collection of porsche's you got there.
cheers |
John: I had my 944 and 928 through the college years and loved them. Just did not have enough money to keep them properly sorted. Worked my arse off in school and now I have 4 in my driveway. The Cayenne is for the wife. I living my Porsche dream after 15 years of salivating through ever issue of DuPonte registry and etc. I got lucky. Through hard work and the key is finding a good woman who does not interfer with what she has loveling called my Porsche obcession. BTW, I am in the process of building an original Ruf RCT Evo. That will be my last car for the time being or until I sell something.
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