Sandman00747

I might add for a bit of humor (not so much for me but for you guys) the wife is giving me a bunch of trouble now about buying this car. She wanted me to get a good used Boxster. I tried to explain how if I would have done that we would have poured mucho dollars into a IMS retrofit, clutch, waterpump, A/O separator and on and on. Plus, not to bag on Boxster's whatsoever, but my son calls them a Porsche grocery getter. That's so funny to me. He 25 and appreciates the unique beauty of the 944 as opposed to all the newer Porsches. And, I'm sure you guys know that the Base Boxster's, as well as the earlier 911's want no part of an S2 at a stop light or on the track. I love this car! Kids come up and ask me all the time if that's a Ferrari looking at the front end! I guess they aren't too familiar with the logos. If I can find the source of this shudder I will drive this beauty forever. However, if I had the bucks for a new Cayman S, well..............don't get me started. Thanks again for each and all's input into this frustrating shuddering problem. I'm determined to solve this mystery!

944hal

Sandman00747. I've had my S2 for 14 years. I replaced the original clutch a year ago. It never shuddered before I replaced the clutch. If I didn't like the S2 I wouldn't have kept it so long. Like yours, it still get admiring looks. Could I be tempted to get rid of it. Well.......I did a check ride for a guy with a 2014 Cayman S at Road Atlanta last weekend. I could be mucho tempted!

boxdoc2

Wow! I just stumbled across this post. We replaced the clutch in our 1990 S2 cab a couple of years ago and now have the same issue that everyone else is describing. Weird. I have yet to dig into it so I'll be following.

944hal

No more input? I was hoping for a resolution since I haven't figured it out. I'm not discounting all the suggestions regarding transmission, transmission mounts, or CV joint, only that I didn't have the problem before the clutch job and that's the only thing that changed. Also, I did check the CV joints and repack then while they were out of the car. Not my favorite job either. Messy!

eohrnberger

People have been mentioned that this started after a clutch job. After the rubber centered clutch dried out and exploded, I also swapped up to a spring centered clutch.

Is that a common denominator that we are seeing here?

944hal

It seems to be the common denominator. Make me wonder if the new spring center clutch is the culprit. I've put two spring center clutch disks in my turbo track car and both of them shudder on take off, although not on a downshift like the S2, which also has a take off shudder. I was real annoyed with the track car shudder on take off, so when I needed to replace the rod bearings, I pulled the motor and also replaced the pressure plate, from a Sachs to a KEP, and put in a new disk. Still had the shudder on take off. So, the common denominator seems to be the disk.

Anyone have any experience with different brand clutch disks?

Ratelbadger

All, I hope I can help in this problem we all seem to be seeing in our beloved 944's.

Here is my story: 1989 944 turbo rebuilt engine-at the time of rebuild I replaced stock clutch with Spec Level 1 pressure plate bearing and disc. All hardware replaced and installed correctly to factory specs. In addition, the original transmission had a 2nd gear syncro issue (hard to engage at any speed) so a replacement trans was installed. That is when the dreaded shutter started. It only happens when engaging 1st gear with low rpm input to clutch or the same in reverse. Once the trans is engaged it would operate smoothly no issues even with down shifting. After talking with some respected Porsche people I had my transmission rebuilt from the bottom up. Synroc's/gears/bearings/races/pinion gear all of it new.

Now guess what; new trans was installed, and the shutter is still there. Shifting is smooth but shutter in 1stadn reverse take up is still there.

Before the rebuild that clutch had a stock disc and pressure plate with a spring center no rubber, and it had no take up issues.

I am going to try the cv joints next and then the spring plate bushings as they are old and OEM.

I will keep everyone up to date on what I find but I am thinking this might be a design issue with Porsche-the clutch seems to act like a Audi 4 puck racing clutch I had years ago.

Wish me luck and any help would be nice.

Regards,
Ratelbadger

944hal

Ratelbadger
Thanks for the input. Keep us updated. BTW....spring plate on my Turbo was new, not so the S2. A little confused on your comments. You said "stock disc and pressure plate with a spring center no rubber". Just to be clear, my comments refer to a stock Porsche disc with a rubber center being replaced by a disc with a spring center.

azbanks

I get the shutter if I don't properly rev match the downshift.

Sandman00747

OK guys, It's been quite awhile since I posted about the shutter but it appears that hundreds of people around the country are having this problem. One guy fixed his by finding out the exhaust at the catalytic converter on back in a couple of places was hung too loosely. so everyone might want to check that. But I think that is a fluke. I have decided the problem must be in the replacement spring-centered clutch. This seems to be the common denominator! Has anyone with a rubber-centered clutch developed this problem? And, has anyone replaced their old rubber-centered clutch with another rubber-centered clutch? If so, have you developed the shutter. I believe and a Porsche mechanic agreed with me (big deal) that the greatest force exerted is a downshift from 3rd to 2nd and somehow the newer spring-centered clutch has too much grab to it. I avoid it by rev matching of course but just to know that problem lurks in my car irritates me to no end! Does anyone else have any kind of news or solutions concerning this subject? If my clutch didn't have but 4,000 miles on it I would put a rubber-centered back in the damn thing. I might add that when I first got the spring-centered clutch it DID NOT shutter going into 2nd gear. It developed a little later on. This problem has really put a blight on this car for me. I have replaced everything from tranny mounts, motor mounts, exhaust, and on and on. I am one weary s2 owner who may have to move this car on down the line which is a shame as it's beautiful and only has 87,000 on her.

944hal

Sandman,
Thanks for the update. Nothing changed on my end. My son-in-law drove my car not too long ago and his first comment was "what's wrong with the clutch". I tend to agree with your analysis, but I'm not about to replace a brand new clutch either :-) Maybe someone else will take heed and try a rubber center disk, if they are still available.

Sandman00747

Thanks for the update Hal. No, I am not about to replace a clutch with 4,000 miles on it. My son, a Toyota mechanic, is going to put it on a lift and fire it up and go through the downshift on the lift and observe what happens underneath. I told him if it is the clutch is simply grabbing too hard going into second nothing will happen with no tire contact on the ground. I guess if it does shutter on the lift then we know it's something else. My son thinks it's a bushings problem and at this point I just don't know except that there are a lot of frustrated s2 owners out there. Well, I guess I go down to the Porsche dealership tomorrow and put in my order for either a GT3 or a Cayman S. I just can't decide!!!! Yeah, right. I wish that were the case. Actually a fairly famous friend of mine, Vivian Campbell, lead guitarist with Def Leppard has a GT3 and he gave me a ride in it last year. Wow, what a machine! He actually felt sorry for me with the shuttering problem in the s2 but he thought it was still a beautiful car! I told him I'd trade him even and we both got a big laugh out of that! I will keep you and any others informed as to what my son can diagnose. I wonder if the rubber centered clutches are still available? My son thought not as about every clutch nowadays has a spring center. Hal, did yours shutter immediately after you replaced the clutch or was it awhile afterwards? I am looking for even the smallest of hints. Thanks!

mel_t_vin

Just wondering why anyone would operate any car with a manual transmission without rev-matching the downshift? Much less a 944/968 where parts/time/labor for a clutch job is $2000?

I would never downshift my 944, or any other car, from 5th to 4th at 100 without rev-matching...same goes for downshift from 3rd to 2nd at 50.

If the problem goes away with rev-matching, so be it. Your car, your clutch, your passengers, and your wallet, will thank you for a multitude of shudder-less miles down the road.

Is this issue/shudder still prevalent with rev-matching?

Sandman00747

Thanks for your input Mel! You are correct that you should always rev match any manual downshifting. I really don't downshift mine at all. I let the brakes do the work. Actually it was my son that first discovered this problem. But the fact remains that this is some sort of major flaw as you can downshift about any other car on the road without rev matching and it won't shutter like this! I have a supercharged Miata that you can downshift all day long and it's as smooth as can be! Not that this isn't hard on any clutch. Of course replacing a Miata clutch is a piece of cake compared to a 944! And the fact that I have found hundreds of 944 owners with this problem tells me something is very wrong with this setup. I would probably buy a newer Porsche but the fact that the engines in Boxsters, Caymans, and 911s are trash from 1997-2008 makes upgrading all but impossible for me! I have considered buying one of those with a trashed engine and getting a custom engine rebuild from somewhere like Flat 6 innovations. But the cost is all but prohibitive, around 20 G's! And, I love my 944 so much except for this problem. But somehow I will find the answer to this problem! And if you rev-match the 944 Mel the problem is not there at all. But, try selling a car like this to anyone and I'm quite sure they would walk away in a heartbeat! Even tough we know downshifting is quite hard on any clutch, any manual car should not do this. Neither myself nor anyone I know has ever encountered another car of any make doing this. Regardless of how hard it is on the clutch it should not do this!

Sandman00747

I was just down at a BMW dealership talking to a friend who works there and after telling him about the shuttering problem on the 944 when downshifting we went in and talked to some senior BMW mechanics. Well, we found out that this also happens on many of the 3 series BMW's if you drop from 3rd to second (no matter what speed) and don't rev-match while doing so. The BMW mechanics agreed with the Porsche mechanics that the spring-centered clutches grab much too hard if you don't rev match on a downshift. So, there's a bit more info for you guys. I find it curious it's another German car that does this! I have had several other friends with manual trannys try this (both American made and Japanese) and their cars do not shutter when then do this. So, as hard as this is on clutches I still consider this to be abnormal and a major flaw!