New 944S2 cab Turbo finished
08-29-2007, 01:16 AM
#1
Racer
Thread Starter
New 944S2 cab Turbo finished
HI folks, thought I should share the progress made on my 944S2 cabriolet turbo conversion, I have been able to get a lot of help in making this conversion from the web in particular the Rennlist/968 web folks. So hopefully I can share the outcome that may help others down this route.
First the goal, I wanted about 300 RWHP, keep stock driveability (I commute in Sydney traffic each day), no bling just wanted a stock look and sound. But much faster!
Outcome so far exactly that, it has also been a very low cost exercise relatively speaking to the power gain.
Approach, stage 1 was stock compression and 8 psi max boost, stage 2 9.2:1 compression and 10/11 psi boost have got a Cometic 3mm HG (not there yet)
Stage 1, I first built a new inlet manifold that would allow me to fit the turbo a T04B-60-1 HiFI, KKK#8 and stage 5 wheel, this took me ages to select this combination using a mix of calculations and feedback from turbo companies and other owners, it may not be the best, but it is pretty close i think.
The manifold took about 3 months, using a donor 951 and 944S2 manifold, a lot of time matching and grinding to make it flow, there is a lot of measurement and fabrication needed if your not handy dont attempt this, I used an external company to do the TIG welding, so all up it cost about $1,000 to do. Happy to share measurements with interested parties.
Tapped the balance shaft housing for the turbo oil supply, and built new fittings for the supply and return was quite easy but needs accuracy and care.
Now all the fab was done, I mounted the turbo, with 951 turbo engine mount, didnt connect the exhaust cross over yet. Mounted the new manifold, rebuilt 951 throttle body, intercooler, made some new custom fit alloy hard pipes. In that process removed the flapper door AFM, mounted a seperate IAT on the inlet and wired in the new standalone a 4424 from http://www.enginemanagementsystem.com/ in hindsight I should have gone for their next level up 4860, but this was a easy to use EMS and I learnt a lot from it.
So what I had then was a stock 944S2 3.0 motor with a turbo non operational, new manifold, new throttle body and new standalone EMS.
I then spent the next 3 months making sure the ignition and fuel were right, in all conditions, hot cold startup etc, well worth the effort it runs as good if not better than stock Motronic EMS. I also did the base line setting for boost with a very conservative ignition map and rich AFR under boost - theoretical at that stage, quite easy to calculate and set.
Next step fit the 951 crossover, had to do a lot of cutting and fitting to match the headers to the crossover plus some outsourced TIG welding, not much cost in this just time.
Used a Tial 44mm wastegate, this is important IMHO as the wastegate will get a lot of flow as the boost is low and it needs to bypass a lot of air from the T0B 60-1, used V band connections to mount the wastegate and then into the exhaust.
I used a company called MC Motorsports in the U.S to make me some custom flanges mc_motorsports@hotmail.com, great service and very cost effective. So I went for stage 1 a 2.75" from the stock downpipe to cat, later stage 2 I have a 3" downpipe, 4" cat and twin 2.5" exhaust planned using MC's custom flange.
Boost is set a 4.5psi using the wastegate spring, I have electronic boost control on my EMS and that is set up so I can increase boost slowly as I get the tuning and AFR right.
So right now, a low boost, high compression 944S2 cabriolet, all up so far about $4500 exluding my labour which was huge and I had a ball doing it.
It must be about 300FWHP on the low 4.5 psi boost, I expect about 370 FWHP on 8 psi and 400 FWHP on 10psi in stage 2, that is very likely at the top top limit for the stock engine - who knows it may be beyond it and may break!! Time will tell. I do run a reduced rev limit using my EMS set at 6200rpm.
Here is the car at 2 months ago it has been cleaned up since, I was working the cold start and ISV control at the time so I had the ISV temporarily mounted on top of the manifold so I could get to it. I have also got rid of the external weld marks on the manifold so it look factory now. Still a few more cosmetics to go.
Happy to share the experiences if it can help anyone.
Bottom line though - you can turbo a N/A, it will be fun, it will be very fast and it doesnt cost an arm and leg, but I will admit there are better ways to do it but the cost will go up significantly too.
rgds
mike
First the goal, I wanted about 300 RWHP, keep stock driveability (I commute in Sydney traffic each day), no bling just wanted a stock look and sound. But much faster!
Outcome so far exactly that, it has also been a very low cost exercise relatively speaking to the power gain.
Approach, stage 1 was stock compression and 8 psi max boost, stage 2 9.2:1 compression and 10/11 psi boost have got a Cometic 3mm HG (not there yet)
Stage 1, I first built a new inlet manifold that would allow me to fit the turbo a T04B-60-1 HiFI, KKK#8 and stage 5 wheel, this took me ages to select this combination using a mix of calculations and feedback from turbo companies and other owners, it may not be the best, but it is pretty close i think.
The manifold took about 3 months, using a donor 951 and 944S2 manifold, a lot of time matching and grinding to make it flow, there is a lot of measurement and fabrication needed if your not handy dont attempt this, I used an external company to do the TIG welding, so all up it cost about $1,000 to do. Happy to share measurements with interested parties.
Tapped the balance shaft housing for the turbo oil supply, and built new fittings for the supply and return was quite easy but needs accuracy and care.
Now all the fab was done, I mounted the turbo, with 951 turbo engine mount, didnt connect the exhaust cross over yet. Mounted the new manifold, rebuilt 951 throttle body, intercooler, made some new custom fit alloy hard pipes. In that process removed the flapper door AFM, mounted a seperate IAT on the inlet and wired in the new standalone a 4424 from http://www.enginemanagementsystem.com/ in hindsight I should have gone for their next level up 4860, but this was a easy to use EMS and I learnt a lot from it.
So what I had then was a stock 944S2 3.0 motor with a turbo non operational, new manifold, new throttle body and new standalone EMS.
I then spent the next 3 months making sure the ignition and fuel were right, in all conditions, hot cold startup etc, well worth the effort it runs as good if not better than stock Motronic EMS. I also did the base line setting for boost with a very conservative ignition map and rich AFR under boost - theoretical at that stage, quite easy to calculate and set.
Next step fit the 951 crossover, had to do a lot of cutting and fitting to match the headers to the crossover plus some outsourced TIG welding, not much cost in this just time.
Used a Tial 44mm wastegate, this is important IMHO as the wastegate will get a lot of flow as the boost is low and it needs to bypass a lot of air from the T0B 60-1, used V band connections to mount the wastegate and then into the exhaust.
I used a company called MC Motorsports in the U.S to make me some custom flanges mc_motorsports@hotmail.com, great service and very cost effective. So I went for stage 1 a 2.75" from the stock downpipe to cat, later stage 2 I have a 3" downpipe, 4" cat and twin 2.5" exhaust planned using MC's custom flange.
Boost is set a 4.5psi using the wastegate spring, I have electronic boost control on my EMS and that is set up so I can increase boost slowly as I get the tuning and AFR right.
So right now, a low boost, high compression 944S2 cabriolet, all up so far about $4500 exluding my labour which was huge and I had a ball doing it.
It must be about 300FWHP on the low 4.5 psi boost, I expect about 370 FWHP on 8 psi and 400 FWHP on 10psi in stage 2, that is very likely at the top top limit for the stock engine - who knows it may be beyond it and may break!! Time will tell. I do run a reduced rev limit using my EMS set at 6200rpm.
Here is the car at 2 months ago it has been cleaned up since, I was working the cold start and ISV control at the time so I had the ISV temporarily mounted on top of the manifold so I could get to it. I have also got rid of the external weld marks on the manifold so it look factory now. Still a few more cosmetics to go.
Happy to share the experiences if it can help anyone.
Bottom line though - you can turbo a N/A, it will be fun, it will be very fast and it doesnt cost an arm and leg, but I will admit there are better ways to do it but the cost will go up significantly too.
rgds
mike
Last edited by Mikes3.0cabturbo; 06-28-2014 at 08:24 PM.
08-30-2007, 01:46 AM
#3
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What would be the difference on a 968 ? I would like to turbo charge my 968 using the vario cam !!
Do you a list and since you already made the intake, what would you charge to make another, providing I supplied that parts? Thanks
Do you a list and since you already made the intake, what would you charge to make another, providing I supplied that parts? Thanks
08-30-2007, 03:03 AM
#4
Racer
Thread Starter
davepnola, the 968 is actually a better engine platform the pistons and rods are forged (year dependant), you have oil squirters on the pistons and a host of other improvements.
The downside is intercooler is harder to fit and the variocam, however variocam is quite ok with the right EMS you only need to trigger the soleniod at the right rpm and most current EMS can do that or you can switch it off totally. During my research on the 944S2 I came across a lot of 968 info - I am not an expert on 968, I know a little bit enought to say in hindsight my next car will be a 500hp 968 cab!!
But you can use just about everything I did to convert your 968.
I'm sorry I cant fabricate your manifold as I have a full life with my car. my sons car and a house I am renovating. But I am happy to provide pictures and dimensions that will make it easy for you to outsource this. Happy to even talk to your outsourcer to help him make it for you.
Please use my experience to help you, this is the reason for these boards to share and grow together.
rgds
mike
The downside is intercooler is harder to fit and the variocam, however variocam is quite ok with the right EMS you only need to trigger the soleniod at the right rpm and most current EMS can do that or you can switch it off totally. During my research on the 944S2 I came across a lot of 968 info - I am not an expert on 968, I know a little bit enought to say in hindsight my next car will be a 500hp 968 cab!!
But you can use just about everything I did to convert your 968.
I'm sorry I cant fabricate your manifold as I have a full life with my car. my sons car and a house I am renovating. But I am happy to provide pictures and dimensions that will make it easy for you to outsource this. Happy to even talk to your outsourcer to help him make it for you.
Please use my experience to help you, this is the reason for these boards to share and grow together.
rgds
mike
08-30-2007, 09:58 PM
#5
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That would be great and I would like to use the vario cam and hopefully i can find somebody to tune this baby through the motronics. The car is a 93 6speed. I have a 944 turbo spare car for parts and tons of other parts. Please make me list when u get a chance and some pics of your fabrication intake. Or I thought I read speedforce racing might be producing one ? Also did you do any modifications to your cam gears and chain ? I am wondering how the geometry of the vario cam would be affected by adding boost ? Thanks
08-31-2007, 06:21 AM
#6
Racer
Thread Starter
I dont have any mods to my cam chain other than new chain and slipper, I am a little out of depth knowledge on Variocam and boost - my understanding it that this in simplified terms Variocam is a hyrdraulic valve action of taking up slack in the cam chain that varies the cam timing, it can be set by a CPU signal.
There are also impacts to changing the intake manifolds on the 968 that impact intake ram affect. So you have some considerations over the 944S2, the combination of those two give the 30Hp gain over the stock 944 S2 power.
Under turbo power tho, I think that gain can be certainly well compensated for, although the variocam would still be a worth while consideration if you had the control via a stand alone.
Your going to find the Motronic chip tuning very expensive as unlike the 951 it is not a volume mod, and thus you will pay for the custom attention.
That is why stand alone make more sense if you have the capabilty/knowledge and by the way you do really need to kow what you are doing in that respect, I am a race car builder and also an electronics engineer.
But am totally open to sharing my fuel/ignition maps if you go that route.
rgds
mike
There are also impacts to changing the intake manifolds on the 968 that impact intake ram affect. So you have some considerations over the 944S2, the combination of those two give the 30Hp gain over the stock 944 S2 power.
Under turbo power tho, I think that gain can be certainly well compensated for, although the variocam would still be a worth while consideration if you had the control via a stand alone.
Your going to find the Motronic chip tuning very expensive as unlike the 951 it is not a volume mod, and thus you will pay for the custom attention.
That is why stand alone make more sense if you have the capabilty/knowledge and by the way you do really need to kow what you are doing in that respect, I am a race car builder and also an electronics engineer.
But am totally open to sharing my fuel/ignition maps if you go that route.
rgds
mike
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09-09-2007, 06:51 AM
#8
Racer
Thread Starter
Zoran, no , I am only running low boost at the moment on my stage 1 max 8psi around 360-380 FWHP, still tuning at thhis level right now, I expect to take a few months at this boost level.
Stage 2 will be the stock (not gas filled) Cometic MLS 3.2mm head gasket. I dont think the MLS HG will be the weak link - it is more likely pistons/rods.
I expect to keep the effective compression the same as at I am running at 10.9:1, So will run 11psi at the new lower compression. This should be around 400-430fwhp. But I am thinking this is the limit before pistons/rod change. This is purlely on personal feel based on 2 x stock being huge, who knows maybe it can go higer...or not!
rgds
mike
rgds
mike
Stage 2 will be the stock (not gas filled) Cometic MLS 3.2mm head gasket. I dont think the MLS HG will be the weak link - it is more likely pistons/rods.
I expect to keep the effective compression the same as at I am running at 10.9:1, So will run 11psi at the new lower compression. This should be around 400-430fwhp. But I am thinking this is the limit before pistons/rod change. This is purlely on personal feel based on 2 x stock being huge, who knows maybe it can go higer...or not!
rgds
mike
rgds
mike
09-09-2007, 10:09 AM
#9
Advanced
Hi Mike,
I just relaised you are from Sydney. I will be passing through sydney sometimes this week.
Your set up must be so responsive at such a compression.
The photo I am sending you will give you idea how I went about inlet manifould.
I got the specs for conrods if you need it.
Zoran
I just relaised you are from Sydney. I will be passing through sydney sometimes this week.
Your set up must be so responsive at such a compression.
The photo I am sending you will give you idea how I went about inlet manifould.
I got the specs for conrods if you need it.
Zoran
Last edited by zoran; 10-20-2007 at 11:12 AM.
09-10-2007, 05:52 AM
#10
Racer
Thread Starter
Hi Zoran, that look very nice indeed, can I get a few more pics of the manifold from some other angles. My manifold was built to get the car turboed - always the intent to build something better later - I have a spare S2 one sitting in the garage waiting for version 2, but would like to see more of yours and the rest of the engine please?
Did you go stand alone - I am trying to find someone with a 16v 3.0 turbo to compare ignitions maps with, all I had to work off was 951 maps and they are totally different.
Beast is off the road at the moment, some minor mods to the turbo, needed to add more heat wrap to the hotside and crossover.
rgds
mike
Did you go stand alone - I am trying to find someone with a 16v 3.0 turbo to compare ignitions maps with, all I had to work off was 951 maps and they are totally different.
Beast is off the road at the moment, some minor mods to the turbo, needed to add more heat wrap to the hotside and crossover.
rgds
mike
09-18-2007, 03:43 AM
#11
Racer
Thread Starter
Just an update for those S2 owners who may be interested.
Finished my first month of driving in Sydney traffic, the most amazing thing about the conversion is just how much impact the turbo has. It feels like I have a 4.0 litre engine in the car, it has got so much more power than stock even at low revs and with such low boost. (30Kpa - 4.5psi)
The turbo is spooling below 2000rpm, you can hear it!! And I can see the results when running the datalogger on my standalone.
I can use 5th gear in the traffic for overtaking, any gear pulls much harder, from 3000rpm it just goes very hard compared to stock, and so much more potential still...
The amazing thing for me as a first time turbo owner is that even at 30% throttle the turbo is working , its unreal, cant tell you how wrapped I am in the transformation.
rgds
mike
Finished my first month of driving in Sydney traffic, the most amazing thing about the conversion is just how much impact the turbo has. It feels like I have a 4.0 litre engine in the car, it has got so much more power than stock even at low revs and with such low boost. (30Kpa - 4.5psi)
The turbo is spooling below 2000rpm, you can hear it!! And I can see the results when running the datalogger on my standalone.
I can use 5th gear in the traffic for overtaking, any gear pulls much harder, from 3000rpm it just goes very hard compared to stock, and so much more potential still...
The amazing thing for me as a first time turbo owner is that even at 30% throttle the turbo is working , its unreal, cant tell you how wrapped I am in the transformation.
rgds
mike
09-25-2007, 12:47 AM
#14
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Has anyone done this to a 88 944 non turbo I mean add the 951 stuff to the high comp. non turbo motor?? And how where the results?? I am new here and really want more power from my 88 non turbo love the car it is just slow Thanks
09-25-2007, 08:44 AM
#15
Racer
Thread Starter
JakeS2, I am running a totally stock S2 3.0 litre engine at the moment, however please note that it has 55lb injectors, intercooler and fully standalone system, so I have total control over ignition/fueling/everything, this weekend I will be moving up to higher boost I expect based on current performance that 9psi will be very achieveable and around 390 - 400hp.
So far this conversion has gone perfectly, delivering superb power and driveability, IMHO the standalone is key.
gds
mike
So far this conversion has gone perfectly, delivering superb power and driveability, IMHO the standalone is key.
gds
mike