Wintermute

I am in need of expert opinions. I am currently in the market for a car to be used as my main car. I have never owned a Porsche before and I am considering taking the plunge. I have always been a huge fan of Porsches and would love to own one, but I do not want to get one if it will not suit my current needs. I will be living in Montreal for the next year and then back to New York after that (read winter driving). I am considering getting a late model (89-91) 944. I absolutely love everything about the car except I have heard that maintenence can get a little costly if one is unable to do most of the work on their car themselves. I have read through the FAQ's and the only thing preventing a definite decision to get a 944 is the worry that it may not be well suited for use as a daily driver especially for the climate in which I live. The alternative I am considering is a BMW M3. My budget is about $17000. I think that this allows for a 944 in very good shape with enough $ to spend on an initial overhaul of required parts. I have little to no experience with either the BMW M3 or the Porsche 944 and am interested to what people here have to say. If it I wasn't going to be driving this car as my main car or if I lived in a warmer climate like Cali or Florida there wouldn't be any hesitation. I am trying to be pragmatic about this decision and not let myself get blinded by my love my for all things Porsche. My gut tells me that the M3 is probably a better idea for now even if my heart wants the Porsche.

PorscheDoc

M3. Now if you were talking turbo, S, or S2 vs. M3, then i'd go with the porsche, but that is just me. BMW is just as ****ty on snow and ice as a porsche is. If it is your only car, then i would lean against the porsche, as in my experience they are very squirrley in the rain and snow.

jim944s2

If you've got a set of good snow tires, the 944 should be good in the snow because the weight distribution is so good. -Other than low ground clearance.
944's can be very reliable, some seem to be more needy than others. For the $$ you're talking about you should be able to get a very well maintained car or a decent lower mileage car and have a good budget set aside for maintenance. I've owned 3 now; an '86 951, a '77 924 and currently an '89 944S2. Except for mechanic 'sabotage' on the 924, all were very reliable and pretty low cost to own.
My 'philosophy' is that the 944's make a better 2nd car. I drive more of a beater for everyday, which keeps the mileage way down on the nicer car. If you're putting 25k miles a year on a 944 that has, say 80k to start with, you're going to be putting some serious $$ into it within 5 years, or simply wearing it out or writing-it-off. But I suppose that's the same for the Bimmer.

PorscheDoc

The problem even with snow tires, is that the tires are so wide, and wide tires in the snow = no go But i know there are some guys driving around their 944's up in canada, so maybe with good snow tires and a sandbag or two and you might not be too bad. I have had my 951 stuck in a flat parking lot on a sheet of ice, and it took a push to get me going I agree with Jim in saying that a 944 is a better 2nd vehicle.

Jon Moeller

Wintermute,
If you're talking about the e36 M3, go with that. Especially as a high-mileage daily driver. Pick up a 951 or S2 as your second car, later.

The chain driven M3 will give you better reliability, IMHO, and handling that is almost on par with the Porsche.

Regarding snow, my 951, my e30 325is, and my gf's e36 325is have all dealt with snow in a reasonable fashion. On crappy Falkens, the 951 was the worst of the bunch. All season Dunlops on the e36 325is were decent. Hakkapelitas on the e30 were outstanding.

Without a doubt, a well balanced car on good snows will outrun any SUV in the white-stuff. AWD will help you accelerate a bit better than us RWD guys, but braking and handling aren't affected by this advantage.

For giggles, I went out in a severe storm a couple of years ago in the e30. I actually tried to get the car stuck in a parking lot. Thing became a snowplow, but wouldn't stop. Two trips through the car wash didn't get all of the ice out of the lower grill. ;-)

-J

Wintermute

Thanks for the info guys. To be a little more specific I was considering a 944 S or S2 and an E36 M3. From what you guys have said and from what I have heard from the other camp (M3 diehards) I am leaning towards the M3. My dreams of a Porsche may have to wait a few years. I do like the styling of the Porsche much more but an M3 seems to be better suited for abuse. By abuse I mean more general use driving, driving in snow, etc. I am a little concearned about racking up the miles on a Porsche. I didn't mention that there will probably be monthly trips between Montreal and New York, with the odd other road trip thrown in here and there. I know I could fly but I really like driving. For those familiar with both cars, am I right to assume that an M3 ('96-'98) would generally require less maintenance than a 944 under this sort of usage? This is of course assuming that I had both cars tuned up and brought up to optimal shape as soon as I got it. Man...this is a much more difficult decision than anticipated. In any event, thanks very much everyone for your help and any more advice you may have.

jim3

Either car give some thought to buying a cheap set of spare wheels and put 4 Blizzaks or Toyo snow tires on. You'll be in good shape. If you go for the S2, hold out for one with LSD.

jerome951

I can weigh in on this thread since I currently have an '89 Turbo which sees mostly track duty and an '98 M3, which is my daily commuter.

Maintenance and repair cost over the last 3 years (since I've owned both cars): 951 = ~$3,000 (maintenance items only, and I do some of the work myself), M3 = ~$1,000

The M3 has a better suspension, steering feel, low-end torque for driving around town, seats, reliability, interior, HVAC system, etc. It will also spank a 944NA on the track (maybe not spank an S2, but is equal or marginally faster). I keep the 951 because 1) I have too much into it to sell it, 2) it's a great high-speed track car with lots of potential, 3) the rush of boost is addictive, and 4) it's a Porsche.

For $17k you should be able to get a nice, well-maintained '95-'97 M3 with reasonable miles. Some of the E36 M3 will also have traction control.

Both of mine suck in the snow because of the tires (Firestone Firehawks and Dunlop SP8080s). Either should do well with decent snow tires.

peter_euro

I would avoid S altogether, just not worth the maintenance cost while the resale is so much lower than S2 (especially cabrio)... Between E36 (or even E30) M3 and S2, M3 is the way to go as a first or only car... If you buy used, bimmers can be very expensive to fix if not properly maintained but still they pale comparing to costs involved in S2. Face it, the car is not getting any younger, less and less people know how to work on it and parts are getting more expensive to get... Get M3, E36 is very civilized but still lots of fun to drive...

slang

Interjecting . . .

I currently own (and drive) an '83 944 and a '96 BMW 328i - not exactly the cars you were considering, but at least somewhat related.

The Porsche has taken me safely and securely thru several blizzards, with and without chains. Snow up to the window ... glare ice ... floods (well, I did have a problem once...) and hail have not been a big problem.

The BMW sat on my slightly angled driveway for two days because I could not back out following a 1/2" snow (Porsche had worn tires, but still made it). It spun on ice (3 times) at very low speeds before going off the road. The hood was dented slightly in a short, soft hailstorm, and when it overheated, the radiator nozzle cracked off just as I was leaning over it (2nd degree burns).

Also on the BMW: The A/C module failed ($500+). The radio failed ($800+). The shift **** cracked. The clear coat has come (mostly) off. I cannot buy a shop manual, and must rely on Bentley's or Chilton's or Haynes.

That said, the BMW is faster, handles better, and seats 4. The Porsche will haul more, if you're thinking of using it as an occasional truck between cities.

Therefore, unless you're into performance, I'd vote for the Porsche. Parts cost about the same. Porsche has more active enthusiasts (like this site) that are very willing to help other Porschephiles. BMW, in my opinion, does not share the exclusivity of Porsche. They make more cars, more types of cars, and more changes between model years than Porsche.

Ok, ok, I'm off my soapbox. Buy what you want and enjoy it.

. . . Steve

Pearceman3

$15,000 could get you a a amazing porsche that would not need much mechanical attention for the first few years and then you would have the 2k left over for snow tires....but i would say go with the M3. Everyday i pass a older guy in a nice m3 and we wave to each other (sorta cool seens how im only 17) Pick up an old n/a for fun if you can handle 2 cars

panzer grey

Sounds like the perfect car for you is the AUDI S4 2.7 LITER TURBO.

4wd.

Loads of power.

"The additional power provided by the turbos transforms the car. It's not just 50 more horsepower. It's really at least as much about the huge amount of torque available down low. Way down low. This engine peaks in terms of torque at 1850 rpm. And then the torque just stays there all the way to 4400 rpm. I've owned cars with turbos before, and the lag as the turbos spooled up made me want to never own one again. I didn't perceive any lag with the S4. Hit the gas, and you immediately feel the results in your lower back.

Front-wheel-drive could not handle all of this power well. All-wheel-drive does. Point the car wherever you want it to go, hit the gas, and it goes there, fast. With all of the drama you want, and none of the drama you don't want. No torque steer here. With this much power, this chassis, previously a little heavy on its feet (the S4 does weigh about 3,600 lbs.), comes alive.

All-wheel-drive continues to have some trade-offs. While the additional power does permit a little power-on oversteer, a well-tuned rear-wheel-drive chassis is still more tossable. Because the front wheels transmit some of the power, and the steering system has been damped to mask the effects of this, the steering lacks some of the precise feedback present in a BMW. What you get in return is greater stability, especially in nasty weather or when you miscalculate a turn. Unless you live where it never rains, or never make a bad move, this trade-off is probably worth it."

http://www.epinions.com/auto-review-...0-381D2030-bd1

SeattleS2

For a daily driver... Neither Porsche nor BMW were known for thier winter driving capabilities.

Between the two... an E36 M3 is a much more practical daily driver (a somewhat usefull back seat, nice sound system, better build quality and ammenities)... 944 S2 or turbo... CHEAPER and maybe better weekend fun/track car. Now, I am driving my 944S2 as a daily driver through the summer here in Seattle, but don't like driving it as much in the winter rainy season, so I've ordered a new Volvo V70R... 300 hp AWD Volvo wagon! SWEET!!!!

But, for an affordable daily driver in a winter climate like NE, Midwest or central Canada... look past the Porsches and BMW's and set your sights on an Audi Quattro!

Audi has proven it's Quattro AWD system's superiority in winter conditions time and time again. I've owned six of them! For you... I suggest a '93-'97 Audi S4 or S6 Quattro! These cars are very comfortable, pretty decent handling, and FAST! 227 hp 20V turbocharged 5-cylinder engines, Quattro AWD (Torsen centre diff, manually lockable rear diff), and 5 speed manual trasmission, 16" alloys.. AWSOME sport seats, etc.

And, this is just the tip of the iceberg! The tuning potential of these cars is limitless.. A chip and WG spring will add an extra 50 hp. Bolt on Porsche manufactured RS2 turbo, MAF and EM, and you are up to 370 hp!

Also lots of support. This group of owners is probably more fanatical than you Porschephilles! Okay, here's a link to a site with some more info. Read on. Ask questions. Drive one. Dubbed at the "four door Carrera", it's the daily choice of a lot of Porsche track drivers in our area.

http://www.urs4.com

Check out the gallery to see some owner's rides. Here's a link to my old car (BTW, I've owned two of them).

http://www.urs4.com/images/gallery/Dan_Hussey2.jpg

That's my old Europa blue 1995 Audi S6 Avant (photo taken up at Alpental last spring). If it wasn't for financial reasons, I'd still be driving her.

As for your E30 stories... I dunno. My experiences are they are lackluster in rain, and totally SUCK in snow! In Wisconsin (where I'm originally from), we do ice racing... Groups would plow a track of snow on a frozen lake... track of sheer ice! We had an event co-sponsored by the local BMW chapter. It was a joke! The E30's (even with snows) would be doing loop-de-loops... while the Quattros and Subbies were tearing up the track with a phenominal clip of speed! Nothing beats a Quattro shod with Hakkas!

http://www.urs4.com/images/gallery/Geoff_Jenkins.jpg

You just get a level of confidence in winter driving you've never had before. It's fantastic!

jim944s2

Re Quattros: My brother had an old '86 Audi 4000Q, w/ 4 studded snow tires. Absolutely amazing car in the snow, it made every snowy/icy road feel like packed gravel. We drove that to go skiing a whole lot. Some of those mid '90s 20vTurbo quattros are pretty neat too!, as well as the old S4s. Even the older non-turbo 20v cars are pretty cool (although lower hp). I understand the the Audi 5cyl motors are extremely well built.

SeattleS2

Jim... If your ever in the Seattle area, we'll have to meet up. I too have an S2, but just bought it, so I'm a newbee to the Porsche thing. I'm hopefully going to be tracking it quite a bit this summer, so you may see me at a PCA or BMWCCA event.

Contact me offlist if you want to exchange info.

As for the studded tires part... I have a sore spot about the subject. I am trying to do my part in helping the WSDOT make them illegal in the state of Washington. They are unessessary in Western Washington, ESPECIALLY on a Quattro. A good set of dedicated snows will get you anywhere you need to go, and not tear up our roads.

Try looking into a set of Blizzaks or Hakkas!