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I guess I'll start from the beginning. Last summer I bought a wrecked Guards Red 83 944 from an insurance auction. It runs, it kind of drives, and its pretty smashed up. The cool part is that it has 10,000 original miles(odometer works). It's in very good condition and is pretty much the closest you can get to brand new in a 36 year old car.
It was hit in the front left corner, destroying the fender, headlight cover, half of the header panel thing, the hood, crumpling the left a-arm, bending the left strut, and causing frame damage. I have replaced the broken suspension parts with parts from my other 944 which I'm now using as a parts car.
SO... sounds good right? Fix it up, drive it a little, and sell it for probably an $8-10k profit? uhhh, hopefully. The problem is I'm 16 and I have no idea what I'm doing. I have no experience in body work, painting, frame work, or knowledge of where to start. This is the reason I'm writing this post. I need advice on where to go with this project. My idea was to take it to a body shop and have them check it out, maybe give me an estimate on how much it would cost to fix the frame and bent metal on the fender well. If so, what body shop would be the best to go to for this type of damage? Is there a type of shop that works with crash repair on older vehicles? After fixing the body, I would have to think about paint. my options are 1. painting it myself, and 2. doing the prep work myself and taking it to a paint shop to let them do it. Definitely leaning towards the second option, because I want a professional paint job.
Please give me any advice, criticism, or ideas you have. I have put off this project for too long and I need to get rolling with it. I will update this with more pictures and information if needed, thanks for spending the time to read about my car!
Well, first of all, you do not deserve any criticism because you are trying to do something really cool. I would not have had the courage to even try this when I was your age, so good for you.
The one thing that I would caution you is your hoped-for profit from this, because a car with serious damage with a salvage title will automatically bring less than an undamaged one, and it could be by a good amount less. Also, I applaud your thoughts about doing the body work and painting yourself, but it sure looks like you may need some professional help here. And that would seriously eat into your profits as well.
I think this could be an amazing opportunity to learn a lot about this model and repair in general, but my personal opinion - which is just that, my opinion- is that making money on this particular vehicle may be a bit optimistic. But seriously, I think you have a tremendous opportunity for some great learning. Many of us have taken beat up 944s and made them into something pretty great, but as for me, I will never get the 10-12k out of my 84 that have put into it. Not to mention all of my time.
A full painting the car (properly) will alone cost you about $5000+ -- unless you do it yourself, never mind any of the bodywork.
Doing it yourself will cost you at least $1500 in equipment (proper compressor, hlvp gun, masking stuff, sanding stuff, etc etc etc. it all adds up if you don't already do this type of work)
Looks like you'll need a new strut on the drivers side, plus whatever got damaged underneath (control arm attaches, stabilizer bar, break caliper/lines, etc.) -- probably into $4k - 5k at the low end if you have it done somewhere.
Additionally, it's 36 years old. Everything rubber that hasn't been replaced, will likely need to be checked out and possibly replaced. Especially when it hasn't been driven or exercised.
(Unused rubber dies up, cracks, breaks apart. Proper OEM engine mounts are hydraulic rubber and cost ~$400 for a pair..)
Don't forget any seals, timing belt + rollers, water pump... You're into another $300-500 + labor. If you don't replace those, the engine may eat itself which costs a ton more than just replacing them due to age or wear.
If it's got the original clutch, you will eventually need to change it, because it's rubber and will fail horribly. Porsche dealers normally charge a full day+ labor on it. You can guess at the cost... To do it yourself, you need to move a lot of things (like the transmission) out of the way. Plus you'll need a transmission dolly (or similar), etc if you don't already have one. (a 300lb transmission isn't fun to drop from a car that's only a couple feet off the ground.)
That being said, I'm only guessing that you're into at least $12-15k in repair work.
Low end resale value on an NA is $4000. High end (all original oem parts, presto condition, no accidents, etc) is probably about $15,000 - $20,000...
Also, Hagerty (the company written on the window) won't insure people under ~25, and without a second car + garage, etc. Insurance on my 944 was quoted higher than my 2011 BMW thru the normal agent -- and I'm twice your age. If you go fixing it, make sure you can also afford to drive it afterwards! (That'd be a huge bummer.)
Alright thanks for the feedback so far. I realize that I was a definitely optimistic about this car but I still think I could make some profit. Being that it has 10,000 original miles (and was garage kept), all the rubber and consumable bits are in exceptional condition. I shouldn't have to replace anything engine or transmission wise although I would like to do the timing/balance belts as I have no previous info of the car.
So, assuming that I don't really have to spend much on mechanical things, I disassemble the car myself, pay a body shop to fix the sheet metal + frame, and worry about the paint later, what should I expect to pay? I realize this varies greatly with damage, but I would be taking all the labor out except for the metal straightening parts. To get an idea of the damage, the left front "frame rail" is bent inwards, the bucket area for the pop up headlights is pushed in a little, there is a fold in the sheet metal of the wheel well, and there is a small bend in the "upper frame rail" that connects to the top of the wheel well.
The more I think about this the more I realize how much of a financial pit this could be. Here are the options I'm thinking of right now: 1. Go through with the full repair, paying a body shop, and figuring out a solution for paint. 2. Get the body fixed and sell it to someone else who can paint it. 3. Just give up and sell the car(hopefully selling for more than I bought it). I don't want to go with option 3 because clearly I want to bring the car back on the road and it would be another project that I have given up on.
The whole selling point of this project is that it has incredibly low miles and is very well preserved. I want to get this car back on the road but I also want to get my money's worth out of it if possible, because it has always been my goal to buy a track/autocross/street car that I could learn to race in (I raced go-karts for a long time when I was younger and have always wanted to continue with cars). I totally get the learning experience thing btw, I used to own a 1991 Explorer that my dad helped me bring back from the dead. I learned a ton from that car but didn't really sell it for much profit in the end.
Thank you guys so much for the knowledge, as much as I want to go through with this, I now know it will be difficult to make profit off of and I'll base my decisions on that.
10K miles doesn't mean anything after a wreck. HOWEVER a 10K mile engine and transaxle may be worth more than the car. Don't know how much you paid, but you may make a profit by just parting out what you have. How is the dash? If crack free and pristine that's worth about $1500 alone.
John has a good point; Research more about the car. Check the condition of the stuff you've got and compare with e-bay. If it was indoor kept and the interior is in good shape, you may profit reasonably.
Also, check out some of the threads on this forum -- like the "what's that rattle" thread. The poster has replaced more in parts than you likely paid for the car just to resolve a ratting noise problem. Put that in context.
"Average Condition #3 (Good) values are still $11,500 across the 944 range" -- quoted from company that sold it to you via auction.
"Consumer Reports calculates that a salvage-title car is worth 50 percent of its Kelley Blue Book value, at best." -- Consumer reports.
Realistically, you're aiming to sell the car for $5,750.
You may get $1500 for the dash, $1500-2000 for the engine, $600 for the transmission in pieces.
Another reference; I paid $4500 for my '88 944 NA with 50,000 miles on it last year. Porsche dealer quoted the guy I bought it from something like ~$12k just to do the mechanical stuff.
I'm only about $7-8k in parts and weeks of my life in labor, plus at least $1500 in tools I didn't previously own. Now looks like I need engine mounts (+$400 and a couple more hours).
Rubber things look perfectly fine, then randomly there's a spot on the garage floor.. That's how these kinds of cars are. (Haven't even started to paint yet...)
I bought the car off of Copart for just over 3 grand. The engine runs amazing but has a clicky injector, dash is 90% crack free, rest of interior is also really nice aside from a couple scratches in the sport seats from the auction yard. The only things wrong with this car come from the crash. The paint is also a 9/10 everywhere but the left front.
I'm not going to part it out, so how much does everyone think I could sell a nearly pristine wrecked 944 for? I would hate to just give up now, but it could be the only smart option.
The hood struts are also aftermarket (Stabilus, no Porsche P logo), not that they wouldn't need to be replaced after 30-some years anyway. Someone's done work on it.
It may have been a windows out / masked bay paint job. (Hence the old looking paint in the engine bay, new looking paint outside and missing decals.)
Did you know odometer gears are broken simply by resetting the trip meter while the vehicle is moving..? Are you sure the odometer even works if you've never driven it?
The 1983 odometer also only has 5 digits -- Are you sure it's not at 110,000 miles?
How do you know there is only 10k miles on the car?
It looks like from the pictures that the rear stone guard decals are gone.
A 10k car should not have a cracked dash or 9/10 paint unless it was parked outside most of the time.
*This is Joe's Dad speaking*
We don't know for sure, BUT the car has tons of oem stickers under the hood that are perfect, the paint was exceptional until the crash and subsequent time spent at copart, and the dash is almost crack free. The car has the look of a vehicle that was garage stored and only driven on the weekends for fun. It does not have any tell-tale signs of abuse or restoration or odometer fraud.
By the way, he didn't mention the sport seats, or the functioning R12 AC system, nor the fact that the car just started right up after we bought it from copart. It had been sitting for quite some time, and the battery was a little low, but she fired after just a few revolutions of the starter. All electrics work inside and out. All guages work as well.
I have fixed and flipped all kinds of regular cars for a long time. I've never had anything this nice come through my hands. This car deserves a second chance. We will get it to a frame shop and see what they say. Does anyone have a frame shop recommendation in the greater Houston area? We actually live in College Station. Unfortunately the only guys I know that have body experience are old american muscle hot-rodders. I'd rather take it to a place that knows about hpw to tug a unibody.....
Can decode the option sticker if you want, that'll tell you quite a bit more about what's in it (under the carpet in the trunk on the rear panel)
R12 can be still technically be recharged if you can find it (wink wink) - stick if you plan to use it. R134 doesn't cool as well due to the system layout.
All OEM stickers are still available from dealers for repaints
The throttle response cam is an aftermarket version / has been modified (the OEM is tear-dropped shape).
People on the forum can likely tell you more if there's more photos involved.
The hood struts are also aftermarket (Stabilus, no Porsche P logo), not that they wouldn't need to be replaced after 30-some years anyway. Someone's done work on it.
It may have been a windows out / masked bay paint job. (Hence the old looking paint in the engine bay, new looking paint outside and missing decals.)
Did you know odometer gears are broken simply by resetting the trip meter while the vehicle is moving..? Are you sure the odometer even works if you've never driven it?
The 1983 odometer also only has 5 digits -- Are you sure it's not at 110,000 miles?
I've driven it in a parking lot. About 5 miles after replacing the suspension parts. The odometer went to 10,118 from 10,113. The stone guards are still there, they're paint colored (I'm assuming that's what you mean by decals). I highly doubt it was a repaint, the paint in the engine bay looks old because it's covered in limestone dust from the insurance yard. The minor cracks in the dash are likely from when the PO parked it in a parking lot under the hot Texas sun. I'm very sure it's a 10k mile car; every single part on it looks and feels new, the steering is tight, it doesn't make any strange noises, and the interior is mint. By the way, I believe the previous owner moved this car from Virginia to Texas. His name was Chris Papamichael, so if in the off chance anyone knows him, or he's a member of this forum, I would love to get in touch and ask some questions about the car.
Can decode the option sticker if you want, that'll tell you quite a bit more about what's in it (under the carpet in the trunk on the rear panel)
R12 can be still technically be recharged if you can find it (wink wink) - stick if you plan to use it. R134 doesn't cool as well due to the system layout.
All OEM stickers are still available from dealers for repaints
The throttle response cam is an aftermarket version / has been modified (the OEM is tear-dropped shape).
People on the forum can likely tell you more if there's more photos involved.
I'll get a picture of the option panel then! And yes there are some aftermarket parts like the throttle cam, head unit, and speakers. I'll definitely be buying dealer stickers if I end up repairing it, thanks for that info!
The stone guards are still there, they're paint colored (I'm assuming that's what you mean by decals).
Not my photo, but see the area in front of the rear wheel well -- Looks like that stone guard is missing from your photos. Commonly not replaced during repaint.
Here is the option sticker. It turns out several of you were right, there are no stone guards in the usual places behind and in front of the wheels. I doubt this means it was repainted, as I looked over the car again and could find no proof of a respray. It does have that strip at the bottom of the car that looks to be made of the same material however.
02-18-2019, 06:07 PM
Wrecked 10k mile 944 rebuild project
