Going to get my 85 from Texas
03-02-2017, 08:01 PM
#121
Burning Brakes
Thread Starter
I would reach out to John Speake and confirm this, if you don't have LH chips for 30lb injectors, you will be chasing your tail for a long time trying to fix this.
I would also find out if it's just the LH modified for the larger injectors, or if the EZF was also changed to reduce ignition timing under boost.
I would also find out if it's just the LH modified for the larger injectors, or if the EZF was also changed to reduce ignition timing under boost.
The thing feels heavy and held back. Hopefully I'll get it dialed in with all the help.
I have Pm'd John and Killav . If I can't get the info on the chips, should I get some of Porkens chips and start fresh?
Last edited by cpayne; 03-02-2017 at 09:10 PM.
03-02-2017, 09:05 PM
#122
Burning Brakes
Thread Starter
Mark said ignition timing was reduced to "14" , but I'll reach out and get the specifics again. It was brief conversation while prepping to load the car. Since my accident , I get confused really easily and jumble things. I wasn't a rocket surgeon before the brain injury, and it sure didn't help.
The thing feels heavy and held back. Hopefully I'll get it dialed in with all the help.
The thing feels heavy and held back. Hopefully I'll get it dialed in with all the help.
03-02-2017, 09:38 PM
#123
Administrator - "Tyson"
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That's about the worst thing you could do.
You have two brains in that car:
LH = Fuel
EZF = Ignition
LH chip needs to be dialed in for 30lb injectors. This is the bare minimum just so it will start, idle, and run at the correct mixture off boost. From there the maps need to be tuned for boost, this requires a shark tuner.
I'm inclined to think something must have been done with the chips since it would be so rich with 30lbs injectors under stock chips, I'm not even sure it would run at all.
EZF - You need less timing while the engine is on boost. The Porken chips increase timing at different areas of the map. You are already at risk of damaging the motor under boost if you are running stock chips. Porkens are designed to maximize performance for a normally aspirated engine.
If Mark & John say different chips were installed for this arrangement, then you are good to go. Just one of the things on the list I would be checking if it were my car.
You have two brains in that car:
LH = Fuel
EZF = Ignition
LH chip needs to be dialed in for 30lb injectors. This is the bare minimum just so it will start, idle, and run at the correct mixture off boost. From there the maps need to be tuned for boost, this requires a shark tuner.
I'm inclined to think something must have been done with the chips since it would be so rich with 30lbs injectors under stock chips, I'm not even sure it would run at all.
EZF - You need less timing while the engine is on boost. The Porken chips increase timing at different areas of the map. You are already at risk of damaging the motor under boost if you are running stock chips. Porkens are designed to maximize performance for a normally aspirated engine.
If Mark & John say different chips were installed for this arrangement, then you are good to go. Just one of the things on the list I would be checking if it were my car.
03-02-2017, 09:41 PM
#124
Race Car
Porken's chips aren't a good alternative at this stage.
Though I haven't seen the maps I'm confident that the ignition chip advances timing across a good part of the range, which increases risk of detonation with the forced induction and any hint of going lean.
The fuel chip manages a hybrid configuration- Porken's setup uses stock or equivalent S3 injectors, but coupled up with a higher-pressure S4 regulator. Which is pretty brilliant for the intended purpose, but not adjustable and not necessarily a good calibration for your car with the boost and the larger injectors.
I think the hope might be that John's turbo tune for S3 cars uses flashable/sharktunable chips, in which case you could overwite the stock program during a dyno tune.
Begs the question though- something still seems to be crosswise as I doubt John would put chips in the market if they didn't come nearer the mark than your running condition. Unless the intent was to just provide a run-able baseline to tune from.
The pending responses should help shed a lot of light.
Edit: Oops, what he ^^^ said.
I'd add though with the complaints about sharp odor while running it does seem likely it is running extremely rich in current state.
O2 sensor is in place and plugged in, right?
Though I haven't seen the maps I'm confident that the ignition chip advances timing across a good part of the range, which increases risk of detonation with the forced induction and any hint of going lean.
The fuel chip manages a hybrid configuration- Porken's setup uses stock or equivalent S3 injectors, but coupled up with a higher-pressure S4 regulator. Which is pretty brilliant for the intended purpose, but not adjustable and not necessarily a good calibration for your car with the boost and the larger injectors.
I think the hope might be that John's turbo tune for S3 cars uses flashable/sharktunable chips, in which case you could overwite the stock program during a dyno tune.
Begs the question though- something still seems to be crosswise as I doubt John would put chips in the market if they didn't come nearer the mark than your running condition. Unless the intent was to just provide a run-able baseline to tune from.
The pending responses should help shed a lot of light.
Edit: Oops, what he ^^^ said.
I'd add though with the complaints about sharp odor while running it does seem likely it is running extremely rich in current state.
O2 sensor is in place and plugged in, right?
03-02-2017, 10:39 PM
#125
Burning Brakes
Thread Starter
Porken's chips aren't a good alternative at this stage.
Though I haven't seen the maps I'm confident that the ignition chip advances timing across a good part of the range, which increases risk of detonation with the forced induction and any hint of going lean.
The fuel chip manages a hybrid configuration- Porken's setup uses stock or equivalent S3 injectors, but coupled up with a higher-pressure S4 regulator. Which is pretty brilliant for the intended purpose, but not adjustable and not necessarily a good calibration for your car with the boost and the larger injectors.
I think the hope might be that John's turbo tune for S3 cars uses flashable/sharktunable chips, in which case you could overwite the stock program during a dyno tune.
Begs the question though- something still seems to be crosswise as I doubt John would put chips in the market if they didn't come nearer the mark than your running condition. Unless the intent was to just provide a run-able baseline to tune from.
The pending responses should help shed a lot of light.
Edit: Oops, what he ^^^ said.
I'd add though with the complaints about sharp odor while running it does seem likely it is running extremely rich in current state.
O2 sensor is in place and plugged in, right?
Though I haven't seen the maps I'm confident that the ignition chip advances timing across a good part of the range, which increases risk of detonation with the forced induction and any hint of going lean.
The fuel chip manages a hybrid configuration- Porken's setup uses stock or equivalent S3 injectors, but coupled up with a higher-pressure S4 regulator. Which is pretty brilliant for the intended purpose, but not adjustable and not necessarily a good calibration for your car with the boost and the larger injectors.
I think the hope might be that John's turbo tune for S3 cars uses flashable/sharktunable chips, in which case you could overwite the stock program during a dyno tune.
Begs the question though- something still seems to be crosswise as I doubt John would put chips in the market if they didn't come nearer the mark than your running condition. Unless the intent was to just provide a run-able baseline to tune from.
The pending responses should help shed a lot of light.
Edit: Oops, what he ^^^ said.
I'd add though with the complaints about sharp odor while running it does seem likely it is running extremely rich in current state.
O2 sensor is in place and plugged in, right?
As far as tuning goes, I have some options, I believe. I could wait until Volla produces his replacement boards. Borrow, rent a shark tuner if that's possible, replace the current ignition system like the motosports techGT.
03-02-2017, 10:40 PM
#126
Burning Brakes
Thread Starter
That's about the worst thing you could do.
You have two brains in that car:
LH = Fuel
EZF = Ignition
LH chip needs to be dialed in for 30lb injectors. This is the bare minimum just so it will start, idle, and run at the correct mixture off boost. From there the maps need to be tuned for boost, this requires a shark tuner.
I'm inclined to think something must have been done with the chips since it would be so rich with 30lbs injectors under stock chips, I'm not even sure it would run at all.
EZF - You need less timing while the engine is on boost. The Porken chips increase timing at different areas of the map. You are already at risk of damaging the motor under boost if you are running stock chips. Porkens are designed to maximize performance for a normally aspirated engine.
If Mark & John say different chips were installed for this arrangement, then you are good to go. Just one of the things on the list I would be checking if it were my car.
You have two brains in that car:
LH = Fuel
EZF = Ignition
LH chip needs to be dialed in for 30lb injectors. This is the bare minimum just so it will start, idle, and run at the correct mixture off boost. From there the maps need to be tuned for boost, this requires a shark tuner.
I'm inclined to think something must have been done with the chips since it would be so rich with 30lbs injectors under stock chips, I'm not even sure it would run at all.
EZF - You need less timing while the engine is on boost. The Porken chips increase timing at different areas of the map. You are already at risk of damaging the motor under boost if you are running stock chips. Porkens are designed to maximize performance for a normally aspirated engine.
If Mark & John say different chips were installed for this arrangement, then you are good to go. Just one of the things on the list I would be checking if it were my car.
03-03-2017, 06:43 AM
#127
Rennlist Member
I never supply definitive chips or bin files for boosted 928s. I do sometimes supply "starter" bin files for the EZ-F/k which reduce the ignition advance progressively as the boost/revs rise.
These are supplied under the proviso that the car is going to get a custom Sharktune afterwards.
Every version of a boosted car requires a custom Sharktune.
These are supplied under the proviso that the car is going to get a custom Sharktune afterwards.
Every version of a boosted car requires a custom Sharktune.
03-03-2017, 11:23 AM
#128
Burning Brakes
Thread Starter
I never supply definitive chips or bin files for boosted 928s. I do sometimes supply "starter" bin files for the EZ-F/k which reduce the ignition advance progressively as the boost/revs rise.
These are supplied under the proviso that the car is going to get a custom Sharktune afterwards.
Every version of a boosted car requires a custom Sharktune.
These are supplied under the proviso that the car is going to get a custom Sharktune afterwards.
Every version of a boosted car requires a custom Sharktune.
Mark wrote
"Just the EZK chip was designed by me with Boostlogic and then mapped and burned by John specifically for a turbocharged (not supercharged) 928S 32v 85-86. The rough idle was never present: I think it might be a derivative of the ECU issues. I'd also pull both plenums and ensure all 10 couplers are fully seated, all 8 spark plug wire ends are fully inserted into the heads, etc. The injectors are Ford Motorsport 30# units that I've run (the same) for years. The LH is stock; this is where Sharktuning or fuel pressure trimming is required to ensure 12:1 AF on-boost."
03-03-2017, 11:36 AM
#129
Administrator - "Tyson"
Lifetime Rennlist
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There's your problem, sorry we didn't pick up on it sooner.
Running a stock LH with 30lb injectors isn't going to work properly, stock is 24lb.
The MAF is seeing "normal" air at idle while the injectors are spraying 20% more fuel than the LH is expecting. The O2 sensor is picking up on a rich condition, but the system cannot pull back the fuel this much to compensate.
Curious, does your oil level look any higher? I'd be concerned with how much fuel has been washing down your cylinders.
Running a stock LH with 30lb injectors isn't going to work properly, stock is 24lb.
The MAF is seeing "normal" air at idle while the injectors are spraying 20% more fuel than the LH is expecting. The O2 sensor is picking up on a rich condition, but the system cannot pull back the fuel this much to compensate.
Curious, does your oil level look any higher? I'd be concerned with how much fuel has been washing down your cylinders.
Last edited by hacker-pschorr; 03-03-2017 at 11:57 AM. Reason: Had the incorrect injector size for this year 928.....
03-03-2017, 12:19 PM
#130
Rennlist Member
Charles,
I received your PM and most has been covered on this thread already.
Hacker has nailed it above, you can't swap out to 30lb'rs without complete re-mapping of the LH.
The only thing you could do right now (and I don't recommend) is to install stock 24 lb injectors, (which you probably do not have anymore) and then limit your boost to MAYBE 5 PSI and then tune as detailed in this thread by slowly adjusting a rising rate fuel pressure regulator to compensate for boost. This is the cheap route for sure, and it can work, but it isn't the safest way at all to run boost on these cars.
Tuning an 85/86 with the shark tuner is not that bad, you just have to take the lids off the LH or EZK (you cannot tune them at the same time) and then attached a ribbon cable from the shark tuner to the LH or EZK. This requires a special break out box for the early shark tuners. I am not even sure if John makes/sells these anymore.
It has been about six or seven years since I helped Pele tune his 86.5 but PM me your phone number and I can at least call and share with you what I know.
I received your PM and most has been covered on this thread already.
Hacker has nailed it above, you can't swap out to 30lb'rs without complete re-mapping of the LH.
The only thing you could do right now (and I don't recommend) is to install stock 24 lb injectors, (which you probably do not have anymore) and then limit your boost to MAYBE 5 PSI and then tune as detailed in this thread by slowly adjusting a rising rate fuel pressure regulator to compensate for boost. This is the cheap route for sure, and it can work, but it isn't the safest way at all to run boost on these cars.
Tuning an 85/86 with the shark tuner is not that bad, you just have to take the lids off the LH or EZK (you cannot tune them at the same time) and then attached a ribbon cable from the shark tuner to the LH or EZK. This requires a special break out box for the early shark tuners. I am not even sure if John makes/sells these anymore.
It has been about six or seven years since I helped Pele tune his 86.5 but PM me your phone number and I can at least call and share with you what I know.
03-03-2017, 12:27 PM
#131
Burning Brakes
Thread Starter
Charles,
I received your PM and most has been covered on this thread already.
Hacker has nailed it above, you can't swap out to 30lb'rs without complete re-mapping of the LH.
The only thing you could do right now (and I don't recommend) is to install stock 24 lb injectors, (which you probably do not have anymore) and then limit your boost to MAYBE 5 PSI and then tune as detailed in this thread by slowly adjusting a rising rate fuel pressure regulator to compensate for boost. This is the cheap route for sure, and it can work, but it isn't the safest way at all to run boost on these cars.
Tuning an 85/86 with the shark tuner is not that bad, you just have to take the lids off the LH or EZK (you cannot tune them at the same time) and then attached a ribbon cable from the shark tuner to the LH or EZK. This requires a special break out box for the early shark tuners. I am not even sure if John makes/sells these anymore.
It has been about six or seven years since I helped Pele tune his 86.5 but PM me your phone number and I can at least call and share with you what I know.
I received your PM and most has been covered on this thread already.
Hacker has nailed it above, you can't swap out to 30lb'rs without complete re-mapping of the LH.
The only thing you could do right now (and I don't recommend) is to install stock 24 lb injectors, (which you probably do not have anymore) and then limit your boost to MAYBE 5 PSI and then tune as detailed in this thread by slowly adjusting a rising rate fuel pressure regulator to compensate for boost. This is the cheap route for sure, and it can work, but it isn't the safest way at all to run boost on these cars.
Tuning an 85/86 with the shark tuner is not that bad, you just have to take the lids off the LH or EZK (you cannot tune them at the same time) and then attached a ribbon cable from the shark tuner to the LH or EZK. This requires a special break out box for the early shark tuners. I am not even sure if John makes/sells these anymore.
It has been about six or seven years since I helped Pele tune his 86.5 but PM me your phone number and I can at least call and share with you what I know.
03-03-2017, 12:32 PM
#132
Administrator - "Tyson"
Lifetime Rennlist
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The only thing you could do right now (and I don't recommend) is to install stock 24 lb injectors, (which you probably do not have anymore) and then limit your boost to MAYBE 5 PSI and then tune as detailed in this thread by slowly adjusting a rising rate fuel pressure regulator to compensate for boost. This is the cheap route for sure, and it can work, but it isn't the safest way at all to run boost on these cars.
https://vortechsuperchargers.com/pro...ant=7812902593
Really simple, under no boost they do nothing. As boost is applied the diaphragm chokes off the return fuel line increasing pressure which causes the stock injectors to spray more fuel.
I'm assuming they work just as well in a turbo application, since I've only used them with superchargers.
A proper Shark Tune is the way to go. The only reason why I would go the FMU route today is with L-Jet cars since the only other option is a 3rd party ECU.
I have since converted my 81 to EuroS LH/EZF which is essentially the same as the 85/86 brains in your car. Shark Tuned and running with 42lb injectors and increased fuel pressure over the stock arrangement (using an S4 regulator).
03-03-2017, 12:44 PM
#135
Rennlist Member
^^Thanks John I wasn't sure.
Also, I just texted Pele, and he told me it was A OK to send you his phone number so you can pick his brain as well. He has MUCH more experience at fine tuning the 85/86 cars than I do.
Also, I just texted Pele, and he told me it was A OK to send you his phone number so you can pick his brain as well. He has MUCH more experience at fine tuning the 85/86 cars than I do.