Steve Drake

86.5 auto, Making good progress changing out sensors and hit a snag. After wrestling with the connections to the fuse and relay board to connect up a new O2 sensor I found a loose wire on the floor that comes from the back of the car and runs along the door edge trim. Because the connector is unusual I thought someone might have a clue what this is connects to. There are no obvious empty connectors and if I knew what is for it would help.



More importantly I now have no spark.
I did start the car with the new O2 sensor in with wire shown above disconnected just to move the car. but after tightening the fuse/relay board down and setting the MAH CO to 380 Ohms on the LH connector, the car would not start. Put a timing light on an see no spark. Did the work with the battery disconnected so I'm at a loss why no spark. The ignition relay clicks and I even switched it and still no spark. Just like when your CPS is bad. Hmmm.
Any suggestions what contact points to check for activity to narrow it down.
Am hoping to get it running good before I leave So Cal and have to let it sit for a couple of months.
Cheers, Steve

Mrmerlin

that cable looks like an antenna wire
for the running check that you have the correct relays in the correct slots,
you wouldnt be the first to install a relay in the wrong slot or position

Steve Drake

Thanks Stan, Good guess. A single shielded wire but no antenna in my car in the back. Mine are in the windshield. Maybe it is just wired for one but I don't know. I have not seen any new malfunctions but am now mostly focused on no spark.
Being I only changed the ignition relay and after the problem occurred I'm pretty sure it is OK. Could jump it I guess. I was hoping for some likely ignition failure checks to make. Been reading but the Shop manual is not a great trouble shooting guide. More a reference document.
Cheers, Steve

Mrmerlin

before you go on a wild goose chase check the parts you have worked on,
ask yourself what was the last thing that I fixed.
that cable could have been wired for a phone or the antenna in the LR quarter
drop the panel in the fender see if their is a bundle of wires then see if you have continuity

worf928

Picture of loose connection is pretty low-res and fuzzy. Sure looks like a coax antenna wire. Maybe old brick cell phone install?

If going over your steps, as Stan suggests, to find what mistake you may have made doesn't work, then break out your shop manual CDs and follow the no-start steps in the EZF-LH troubleshooting guide.

Steve Drake

Your right, I will go over the panel. I did have to remove a couple of the plastic multi plugs and their top lock tabs are not all there. Will release the panel screws and go from there. I will say there is no evidence of Corrosion in the panel area. Car has always been garaged and dry inside.
The old phone idea is a very likely old antenna connection. I found a second wire with 4 leads loose that was just cut free. I also have 2 wires with fuse connectors coming off the LH cable. I suppose the car may have been chipped at one time. The car was 5 years old when I got it. Will trace all the unconnected wires back after I get it running again. I hope to add Ken's chip set to it when I get beyond the refresh I have been working on this last year. Looking forward to not working on the electrical system and back on mechanical maintenance but still have the dash pod to refresh Uggg.
Thanks again, Steve

dr bob

Steve--

If your battery-disconnect procedure included lifting the positive battery terminal, go back to that connection and look carefully at the smaller wires there. Ignition, fuel pump and injectors have dedicated smaller feeds from the positive battery post. You would not be the first person to upset the connections there enough to lose one of those functions.

You can test at the relay socket if you wish. Add the jumper in place of the relay, and VERIFY with a meter there that you have battery voltage at the 30 terminal in the socket (where your jumper wire connects) with the jumper in place. If you have the deluxe improved luxury jumper with a switch in the middle, you'll want to make sure there is battery voltage with the switch closed (so there's some load on the connections).

GJB928

That is a broken connector for an old cell phone antenna. The screw on part is missing.

Steve Drake

GJB, Thanks for the positive ID on the mystery wire. I just remembered, 25 years ago there was an external antenna fixed to glass near the upper brake light. It came from a previous owner and was instantly removed. I'll pull the wire out when I do my next interior cleaning.

Hi Doc, I actually disconnected the main battery ground. Cleaned the positive leads there back a couple months ago. I did not get to dig into it today but tomorrow am retracing my finger prints around the main connector panel. I do have a switched jumper in the glove box per your suggestion. Will check the voltage on 30 with a load. If I can't find a problem on the panel. Then I guess I can check for output up the line to find why no spark. Let me get the panel checked first. Much too much of a coincidence unless I shorted something and blew something else to loose all Spark. I just love the fact I had to undo the panel to get to the after thought, way too short connections for the O2 sensor. Never even saw where the pig tails are actually connected. Weak for a car that cost close to 90K in '86. The wooden (excuse me, press board) floor boards are reflective of the wooden floors in 1932 Plymouth. Had one blow out about 120 MPH on highway 101 once. Way less traffic back in the 60's. Could safely nail my old 392 Hemi back then.
Thanks Much for the suggestions, Steve Will post any results.

Steve Drake

Today Looked at the panel and saw this relay and was wondering what the test function was and how it works


Next I took the panel loose and looked for plugs loose or other. Found nothing I could see. Checked the color code of the plugs I had to disconnect to get to the O2 connections and saw no errors. Tried to start the car several time along the way to see if spark returned. Dead nada nothing on the timing light.

Next I tested the IV ignition relay and got 12 volts and 11.7 with the key on. I Jumped between 86 and 85 Why I don't know but the jumper got hot and I pulled it off but as I did small amount of smoke came off the the area by the computers. Pulled the computors to open ans do the smell test and visual. Don't see any damage or smell anything. With any luck I did not fry them. Have no idea what the smoke came off of but it is never good. Tested the #30 and 87 and got 12 volts then key on 11.7 then key turned 8 volts.

Figured the battery was about dead and hooked up a changer to see it was at 12%. Wish I had some of ken's chips to drop in but will put the computers back in unless someone can suggest a test for dead shorts.
Will look over the Schematic tonight. See what part of what I got hot.
Don't usually do stupid stuff but read the wrong numbers on the relay. Oh Well I have a pen and a check book and when I F$%^*&* up I know not to give up but slow down and get some help. Help!

928NOOBIE

The relay with the green light and "test" is so you can test fuses to see if they are good. On my car it works with everything off...if you want to know if a fuse is good..stick 'er in there and if it lights up...fuse is good ...

I am also seeing what appears to be original 53 type relays in the car. They are not that expensive and in our years they run a lot of stuff..including both LH and EZF..it wouldn't hurt to refresh those...

I got an extra volt by replacing all 9 of those on my car...will cost about 50 bucks ish...

joejoe

That is the relay that caused no start on one of my '86.5's. Throw a 53 relay in its' place and see what happens. Umm..... unlike me , use an actual GOOD relay!

928NOOBIE

I love that picture of your dogs...it cracks me up every time.

Steve Drake

Thanks, So I gather the fuse test relay is the same as a 53 just with an added option. I will swap the relative ones out.

Now how can I tell if I fried my LH or EKF computers. I guess just look for any dead shorts with my ohm meter between any two connectors. They look OK and smell OK but a blown transistor will not always show or smell.
Actually it appears there is no connection to them from the mistake I made on the IV relay. I see the 85 and 86 pins on the IV Ignition relay go to Ground above the panel, the combination relay XXIII/XXIV light relay and a terminal of the lamp check. It draws power from the ignition switch at terminal 22. So I conclude I am lucky there was no connection to either computer. The small amount of smoke I saw was probably from insulation on one of the brown ground wires. Will look at those for damage tomorrow.
Will put the LH and EKF back in Tomorrow. Unless they just failed on their own I am Pretty sure they are OK.

I have charged the battery tonight and will retest pole #30 under load. The low reading when the starter was engaged was hopefully from a near dead battery.

Hopefully go back to the original No Spark issue of this morning. The car ran fine with the new O2 sensor. The next day I pushed the floor plug seal in and tightened the main electrical panel. Then No Spark. This is why I am fixated on the relays.

I will swap out the relative 53 type relays IV, XVI, XX, XXV with tested good ones.

I guess I should look to testing the CPS. if no luck swapping relays.

Cheers, Steve

Steve Drake

Tested the EZF and LH for shorts and they seemed OK. Put it back together and in doing so Looked at every part I touched the day I lost the spark. I recalled I had the EKF and LH cables off. Found a couple of the connector pins where not looking perfect and used a sewing pin to move them to their natural positions. The car started without touching the gas pedal.
I have to say I learned a valuable lesson. Those connectors are very sensitive.
I also learned taking the LH and EKF out was easy and they were easy to open. When I get back in town will try to get some of Kens chips, and the higher pressure Fuel regulator and a refreshed MAF. If you have any of those you want to sell let me know. Working to make an improvement should be a lot more fun.
I I also learned more about how the engine works thanks to you all and stuff to watch out for.
Have a great celebration on Friday. This old buzzard sure will.
Cheers, Steve