cali4sun

An engine fire perhaps? Just sayin!!!

'89 928 S4 GP White/Black
'80 911SC Targa Black/Tan Sold (2016)
'76 912E Silver/Black Sold (2015)

GT6ixer

I think you may have missed my point. So let's say it costs $50K to rebuild an engine due to a fire. Very "uneconomical" for you and me as the owner to repair. But if you are Bill Gates and the car has sentimental value then $50K is not uneconomical at all. Now let's say it only costs $5K to repair and we value the car at $20K. Not so uneconomical. However if the insurance company values the car at $9800 then a $5000 engine repair is 51% of the overall value and they deem the repair "uneconomical" and tell you to go pound sand. Just sayin.

FLT951

For all intents and purposes the "uneconomical" term is undefinable on purpose and the people who wrote the law did it that way probably on purpose. It was not written to favor Ins. Cos but for owners who, in some cases, are the Ins. Cos.

The $ factor is not the driving force. Logical safety and legal issues are the major issue. Then the financial issues and they all make sense.

Hurricane Katrina created a record # of fraud cars that were unscrupulously repaired and ebay or Cl'ed to the stupid public.

Bent frames and fires that destroy more than is just visible are huge problems as well. Would you like to have one of these cars in your fleet? What if you had one because an Insurance Company ignored your safety and allowed one in your garage with no warning?

They have a huge responsibility or two. 1.) Help keep risky cars off the road. 2.) Provide a reasonable opportunity for their stockholders to make a $1. #2 is involved in two obvious ways. Avoid liability from those who may buy a death car allowed back on the highway by being extra diligent. And…do not pay for cars to be restored but do allow for them to be repaired to their pre damage condition.
Anybody have issue with any of that? If so, start an insurance company and give away your money.

As a consumer you have an obligation to yourself that only you are responsible for. If you want cheap insurance go for it. If you want effective insurance go for that. Sometimes you can find both. But probably not. Vent your carrier like you would your used car, your lawyer, your barber or your President. SMIRK!

Read the policy and follow the rules. You want to get started today on the repairs and not allow the carrier to see it. Great? But be willing to suffer the consequences as you would if you didn't do a PPI or make sure the barber wasn't blind.

You want to take this opportunity to restore the car? Great get the carriers cooperation to help but don't expect to do it surreptitiously and get away with it. I have actually engaged carriers to help me restore or substantially improve 3 cars of mine and several cars of others just by talking the talk. Also don't expect them to ignore their moral and legal responsibility because you don't want to share the responsibility or the same moral obligation.

"Uneconomical" is almost an unfortunate term because it can't be defined but it is effective in allowing carriers to justify the destiny of a claim and it actually works to your benefit.

Only mentioned Carfax because it can show "totaled" or "salvage" which is a kiss of death which may not even appear on a title.

Hey Cali4sun, is that an Eichler?

vanster

To Nate
On the economic side one has to bank on the appreciation end. Two meanings to this 1) Appreciate owning and driving the car = value 2) Good 928's will go up in value as we are seeing annually

FLT951

Vanster, I wanna come back to the hills.

cali4sun

I was having a little fun with you. Point well taken

No, I do not believe it's an Eichler or in California, however I believe it is a owned by a Rennlist member?


To the OP - Vanster, here is a link that might be of some interest.

https://scholar.google.com/scholar_c...=2006&as_vis=1



'89 928 S4 GP White/Black
'80 911 SC Targa Black/Tan Sold (2016)
'76 912E Silver/Black Sold (2015)

hacker-pschorr

This is an interesting thread. A lot of people posting theories, laws, other oddities they claim is fact....

Until you've spent time at a wholesale insurance dealer only auction you have no idea how messed up this system really is.

Doing a quick search, all of these are currently for sale with clear titles by insurance companies, with fire damage:

https://www.iaai.com/Vehicle?itemID=23729803
https://www.iaai.com/Vehicle?itemID=22540684
https://www.iaai.com/Vehicle?itemID=23267104
https://www.iaai.com/Vehicle?itemID=23490115
https://www.iaai.com/Vehicle?itemID=22632020

Just to list a few....

I've seen cars rolled up into a ball and wrecked so bad the only way you knew it was a vehicle is because on tire was visible, sold with a 100% free and clear title by an insurance company.

This will probably be purchased by a body shop and the VIN used to repair a different vehicle without a clear title. In many states, as long as the ODO and VIN stay together, it's legal:
https://www.iaai.com/Vehicle?itemID=23880622

Clear title means no requirement by the dealer to disclose the damage to this Porsche:
https://www.iaai.com/Vehicle?itemID=23367431

Imo000

And that's' the reason why branding a heavily damaged vehicle is important. This way it isn't up the the seller to disclose if they feel like it.

Would you buy a 928 that was in a fire that melted the fender off? How would you feel if you ended up with it and didn't' know?

docmirror

I stand by every sentence, word and letter I wrote. I've been through it several times. Like the weld two different ends together and have clear title. Seen it done.

OBTW, that Cayenne likely won't go out as clear. TX DMV has it in suspense right now, which is a precursor to either salvage leading to rebuilt, or destroyed. The insurer put the flag on it, and generally it's a one way trip(which is kinda where Van is stuck right now).

hacker-pschorr

Not sure what I posted insinuated anything you said was incorrect. In fact, I was reinforcing your post(s). I've seen body shops cutting up multiple cars purchased from insurance auctions to produce one car for a used car lot, with a clean and clear title.

One example of thousands (I was looking for a Porsche of some kind). I've seen vehicle in much worse shape leaving the auctions with clear titles.

Guy

Not to beat a dead horse but to reiterate, State laws play a major role in determining what gets a salvage title. Some states have little to no legislation in this regard. So you will see ashtrays with a clean title.

Another scenario is timing. I have seen clean title cars with nothing salvageable like the examples posted above. Many times this happens when an insurance company assumes ownership prior to recovery of a theft vehicle which is later burned, wrecked, flooded etc.

Another example is the self insured. Most if not all Enterprise rental cars are sold clean title regardless of the damage since they are self insured and under most states laws, the salvage title provisions don't kick in since there is no insurance company payment in the traditional sense.

State law matters and in the end, it's all down to math. Do too good a job of negotiating for a fair value payout and you may just cross the line into the percentage of value that triggers a salvage title.

hacksaw

The Property and Casualty insurance industry has made a little less than half a trillion dollars in the past 10 years according to "Insurance Journal." The reason law related to the industry is different from state to state is the insurance company lobbyists would rather deal with 50 monkeys (read state insurance commissioners) than one gorilla (read federal government). After my state was ravaged by Katrina these beneficent multinationals came in and low-balled and refused payment to thousands of their customers making arcane differentiation between "wind" and "water" damage. They got caught falsifying and replacing structural engineering reports in order to deny payments. I have seen this kind of behavior first hand in my law practice and watched their political strong arm tactics in the state legislature. Don't feel too sorry for them.

FLT951

Hacksaw. You are right. I don't think anybody has any sympathy for insurance companies. As to Katrina you said it too softly. The crimes by carriers were deserving of prison time and they are still going on. That is a different thread. If you start it I will throw on some outrageous examples. Also, these crimes won't end until there is some sort of legislation or overseer created with some teeth. Can you see that happening? Legislate big business? SMIRK!

Guy, you have probably ended the debate. Very astute, well said, cuts to the chase and pretty well ends the discussion. Nice post.

Vanster. What remains is our hope that your car ends up exactly how you want it, stays off the scrap heap, keeps a clean title and that the dollars exchanged are to your satisfaction.

hacksaw

Amen

vanster

WOOO WHOOOO

The insurance company came around. They obviously did their homework and realized that the car had value and the first estimate that they wrote put the project upside down. The adjuster ball parked the replacement parts, which many are NLA so he made up a number.
I am more than pleased with the settlement and I get to keep a clean title. It just took a long time but now I will get my car back!