Red Flash

Someday, we will all have to replace our water pumps (again and again). I have lost the overview, and thought I would ask some feedback from some of the authorities what the status really is nowadays.

What is an authority? Anybody who buys/installs/sells multiple water pumps per year.

It seems there are several pump types available:

1.) Factory
2.) Laso
3.) Guardian
4.) Geba
5.) Chinese eBay (Hamburg-Technic, et. al.)
6.) Autopac
7.) ?

What appears to be the failure trends on these different pumps? Are they all with plastic impellers now?

NOTE: this might not be a very fun thread, because I am not looking for anecdotal evidence. (Like I have only one pump which has worked well, but this is not useful statistically speaking.) To give a useful to answer, you really have to be seeing multiple pumps per year. This topic is so important for our vehicles, I thought it would be useful to solicit some information for all.

hacker-pschorr

Call Roger:

https://rennlist.com/forums/928-foru...p-special.html

If you do a search for "water pump" in the subject line, you will find dozens threads asking the same thing.

Part of the problem is this has been a moving target. The water pumps many trusted 3-4 years ago that are coming due for replacement, may not be available anymore so any evidence from that time frame isn't necessarily relevant.

Bottom line:
1. Buy new (compared to rebuilt, which were reliable about 15 years ago)
2. Get a plastic impeller so if / when it does fail, your block doesn't get damaged.

Which new one? Whichever one Roger is selling, he spends countless hours researching this and keeping up on what is available.

worf928

My $0.928: I'm putting Guardian or new Porsche pumps in. I have one S4 'extra bush' Laso on the shelf for a rainy day.

20+ Guardian/Porsche/Laso installs in the last few years. No failures to date.

Red Flash

And the problem with those threads is the statement, "Well, I have a Laso pump and it works great." This is one sample only.

The moving target idea is appreciated and that's why I also put the year 2016 in the title of the thread thinking that that would kind of narrow it down.

Worf's answer was the kind of answer I thought might be possible. Thanks!

jcorenman

...per thread, times dozens of threads But your point is valid, statistics requires numbers.

Another pump for your list is Geba. They are a German company and an OE supplier to Porsche, but not for 928 pumps. They do use cast-iron impellers which is a disqualifier for many or most folks here.

Hamburg-Technic is another brand that pops up on eBay and elsewhere attached to Chinese-built water pumps of dubious quality.

The fundamental problem with your question is that any insight into pump failures has to also factor in time. If we expect water pumps to be trouble-free for 60K miles over ten years (the life-expectancy of a timing belt for example), then we currently have good answers for what worked and didn't work for vintage-2006 water pumps.

Even the "authorities" have no idea what the future statistics will be for a pump installed in 2016. We all have theories and opinions, but there won't be any real data for many years.

Given the costs associated with a WP/TB failure we've chosen to use factory pumps for our cars. Overpriced certainly, but seems to me like the safest bet and $800 in the grand scheme of things doesn't seem unreasonable.

Red Flash

Thanks Jim! I'll add those to the list.

I appreciate what you are saying about the time-element here. The insight + time factor is also what Hacker-Pschorr mentioned. This could be simply availability or even "quite" design changes.

As an example, I heard that Laso was formerly not so good but has improved in the mean time. No way to substantiate this though, unless you are talking to people that see some of them.

hacker-pschorr

I did a lot of research on rebuilds a few years ago, for a Ferrari I was working on and that led me to a gentlemen that was well know for rebuilds of all makes / models. His pumps went on many 928's 10-15+ years ago, until a major supplier stopped using his and switched to an inferior source. IMO this is where the bad name for rebuilds came from.
His units were still available from places like Zims and 928 International until he retired 3-4 years ago. I found a stash of 8 pumps by him, and they are currently in my basement.

Anyway - reason for this long story I'm telling again, I spent many hours on the phone with him learning about pumps and bearings. Long story short, the quality of the bearing is key as is the condition of the housing being rebuilt. Since most have sworn off ever using a rebuild, ever...focus on the first part.

The bearing, that is why I'm not "sold" on the super expensive Porsche pump. A problem that has plagued other brand pumps in the past is with the blink of an eye they could change bearing sources, one batch is fine, the next batch is.....good luck!! I have zero faith in the people behind the "Porsche Pump" to guarntee the bearing is of the up-most quality and will never change. Per Roger, the number sold is so low, it's impossible to get any real data to compile on their reliability.

I feel really bad for not mentioning the Guardian pump in my first post, complete brain fart - the #1 thing I like about that pump is I trust he will always use the best known bearing he can get his hands on. Quality control is there, since it's just him - kind of like the re-builder that retired. He was very particular about what bearings to use and where they came from. He said (at that time) those made in Japan were the best.

After he retired I called a couple companies "known" to rebuild water pumps. None of them had ever seen a 928 pump, and one was have a major difficulty taking a 944 pump apart someone sent them (on the same search I was, trying to replace the former re-builder). When I mentioned Japanese bearings to this guy he said: "Nobody would ever pay that much for a rebuilt pump" I said "Try me" but he refused to quote me a price.....

So, bottom line (amended from above)
1. Buy a guardian pump
2. Buy whatever Roger recommends with a plastic impeller

Every pump will eventually fail, at least with a plastic impeller your block won't be shredded. I'm a rebel, the rebuilds I have in my basement all have metal impellers and the retired pump builder said he would never touch a pump with a plastic one.......

I know there are some outfits working on replacing the void of that rebuilder. "Rumor" has it his apprentice has opened shop and is doing 944 & 928 pumps again. The next time I need a pump I'll probably seek him out and once again have a conversation about bearings......

GregBBRD

I'm a proponent of the factory Porsche pump and use them in probably 75% of my installs.....and I do a boatload of timing belts and water pump jobs every year.

Zero failures....over many, many years of working on 928s.

I've seen failures of every single other option on your list...

Because these are cars, people's tolerance for failures is higher and more dependent on price.

I'm going to guess that if these were airplanes, their tolerance for failures would be much lower....and virtually everyone would use a factory Porsche pump.

antlee928

Roger seems pretty satisfied with the GEBA. Yes metal impeller but when I recently replaced my pump (along with many other service items) my pup that had been in the car since at least the last TB change back in 2005/2006 and with at least 90,000km on it certainly looked ok. Anyway wnet with Roger's recommendation and installed a GEBA. Looked to be very god quality and no instal issues.

Cheers