Ladybug83

Hi folks,
A couple months ago I got an '85 ROW with the 4.7L M28/22 engine. The car is Ca BAR inspected and I had no problems registering it and transferring the title after the back-fees were paid. However, the registration is incomplete until I get it to pass the emissions inspection (smog check). The car is a non-runner and will need a lot of work to get it back on the road but Im up to the challenge and Im off to a good start.

This week Ive been picking away at WSM Chapter 10 (Removing engine) and I've been surprised at some of the smog/exhaust equipment I've discovered, although Im still kinda new here and I haven't seen a whole lot of 928 variations yet, at least from underneath.

Ive been doing some searching but I haven't found many threads addressing Euro cars in California. I've read about 30 or so threads now about Ca smog tests (and there are infinitely more to read) but not many regarding Euros, so I thought Id start a thread dedicated to Euro emission testing in Ca and other states with similar emissions standards. The idea being to share ideas, experiences, knowledge and solutions about the topic. Im hoping that this thread can serve as a guide to future Euro owners in Ca and other states, as emissions testing I suspect, will inevitably become mandatory everywhere.

Here are links to a couple short threads I found regarding one ROW car in CA. I didn't continue my search farther back than 2006 because it seems as though the regulations have "evolved".

Richard S. had good results. Twice

https://rennlist.com/forums/928-foru...o-s-motor.html

https://rennlist.com/forums/928-foru...-s-engine.html

I also contacted a local fella I met with an '85 Euro and Im hoping he will allow me to check out (and maybe take some photos of) his set-up in hopes of gaining some more knowledge and mimicking a successful smog/exhaust package. Ill post back on that when/if I can.

Here's what I've found on my '85. I'd love to hear suggestions, ideas, experiences, solutions, etc.

Here's the exhaust system as unbolted from the manifolds.



The cat has no markings or branding that I can see, but the little forward "mini mufflers" are branded. WTH!?






This valve, Im not sure what it is (EGR?), but it screws into the right-side Ford mini muffler. The metal tube runs up to the right side of the intake manifold where someone tapped and installed a male-male connector between runners 3 & 4.



The metal tube coming off the right side of the cat is attached to a rubber hose that runs up to the diverter valve on the right side of the engine bay.

The tentative plan for this engine is to disassemble top end. Service heads, new gaskets, seals, hoses, plugs. Service injectors. Rebuild MAF and LH. New coils and wires. Service bottom half of engine. Service engine bay wiring.

Trying to get a game plan together for exhaust and emissions. Some of the original equipment is present (smog pump, filter, etc)

Questions that immediately come to mind:

1) I have a pretty new Porsche cat that I've been using on my US '83 4.7L with a Borla single pipe muffler back end. Maybe not the best option for extracting Euro ponies, but Im hoping to at least be able to run that with the stock exhaust manifolds for clean smog checks.

2) The Porsche cat on the US '83 uses an O2 sensor, this Euro car doesn't. I don't see wiring for an O2 sensor plug but I also haven't removed the CE panel to see if the plug is hiding back there. Seems like Richard S. (thread referenced above) passed emissions without O2 sensor.

3) The Porsche cat has a connector leading to EGR on the US '83, would that serve the same purpose as the oily valve pictured above?

4) Is the tapped line to the intake manifold really necessary? I'd love to delete it if possible.

Thanks in advance everyone. Any info/experiences would be helpful and appreciated.

V2Rocket

can't help on the euro/smog stuff but I am not surprised at the discovery of the "blue oval".

when i replaced the original (from 1984) heater core hoses on my 944, one of the hoses had the Ford logo stamped into the rubber next to the printed Porsche part number and triangle-P.

dr bob

The '85 Euro that went to James M's collection in Texas had Cali plates, but the seller wasn't able to get it to pass smog. There were a few little electro boxes added that weren't really doing anything, and it has an oxy sensor but none of the controllers or brains needed to make it work in closed-loop mode. LH injection, EZF ignition, so it may not have been a big issue for someone who knows what they are doing.

Resources include Greg Brown relatively local to you, and also Stan (mr merlin) in Pa who has very recent experience with an '85 ROW car.

Were it mine, I'd be scrounging as many US-model parts as I could from Mark & Tom, and do everything practical to make it look like a new, US, factory-fitted car. Passing the visual is a challenge since the inspector/referee doesn't have a great feel for what the car came with. I can sell a neat clean factory-looking plumbing setup, and can generally find settings that will get the car to pass the tailpipe sniff if the cats are working.

My last several Cali inspections included "changed anything?" Visuals were great, and it passed the sniff test OK so not that much concern. Make yours look like it rolled off the assembly line and you are well on your way. In my limited experience anyway.

Ladybug83

Thanks Dr Bob. Most of the equipment is present, just needs to be tidied up and everything else I can hopefully swipe from my US '83. I'm gonna meet up with another local '85 euro owner and check out his set-up. I've already been offered to borrow a Sharktuner (thx Rob) but I still have along way to go till then. Just trying to make a rough list of parts to obtain, and what to toss out. Seems like euro cars were not all federalized the same so I'm hoping to see what others have found and used successfully on their cars and build a reference thread for future Euro owners.

This particular car has a mixed history of passing/failing emissions so one would think that the equipment present was working at some point, unless it was installed later as an attempt to pass.

Thanks again Dr Bob. I'll keep this thread updated as I find info and progress with my project.

soontobered84

Different state, I know, but the first time I took the Schwartz car to the Texas state inspection station, the inspector initially spoke very little to me. He plugged into the tailpipe and began the emissions portion of the test. It passed emissions and he looked over at me and told me that he would have bet money that this car would have never passed. I was ecstatic.

You will not find an O2 sensor plug on your 85. Mine has a non-functional O2 sensor in the bunghole, but the wires are cut short to the sensor.

I did install new cats when I initially got the car drivable, but my understanding is that these engines are normally pretty clean emission-wise.

All told, you live in a much different state than I, and your requirements may be much different than mine, but I thought I would pass along my experiences.

Ladybug83

That's great info soontobered84 thank you

dr bob

Having spent a little time with folks with an Italian company trying to get their US cars to pass Cali's stricter requirements, I can safely say that the federalization efforts just to get Euro versions into the US were all over the map. Cali certification is another ballgame altogether, especially when things looked at all cobbled together. Combinations of carburetor adjustments/tuning, along with changes in ignition mapping (think springs and weights, limit pins and vacuum restrictors and delay valves), sometimes EGR, and always running hotter thermostats were the basic things needed to pass. Plus Cali had more strict HC tolerances from non-tailpipe sources even after the engine was shut off. On carbureted cars that means low-speed shut-off valves in very tight vapor-recovery systems so fugitive tank vapors couldn't waft back out from under the air cleaners.

Lots of things possible with getting a car to pass. The Good News for you is that the car has already been "certified", so all you need to do is get it back to the configuration it was in when it first passed. Whatever that was...

For quite a few decades, real mechanics and certainly dealer techs in Cali weren't even allowed to open the hoods of ROW cars that had the slightest hint of needing emissions compliance work. Once the hood opens, you could be liable for whatever is in there working or not. And while I agree that "these engines are normally pretty clean emissions-wise" they can still be a chore to get right for a serious test. Cats are amazingly sensitive to incoming CO and HC levels, but a typical ROW car that never was intended to have cats won't have the electronics in place to use an oxy sensor for closed-loop CO (functionally mixture) control. Getting NOx to line up with typically higher compression and still without active mixture control is virtually impossible without a set of very good cats, and those won't last very long if mixture is moving around a lot.

I no longer have a go-to resource for more friendly emissions testing in SoCal. Someone who would work with you to get the car tuned on the rollers to get it to pass. Greg may know someone, certainly worth the inquiry.

Ladybug83

That is good news. BAR cert plate/sticker is still in the door jamb. So just have to get it looking stock and running clean and take it through the smog check. No referees hopefully. Ill definitely check in with Greg when the time comes and see if he has the time to fit me in the schedule but Im still a long way off from that stage. Im hoping to take the transmission to him for inspection/repair before then. Get some of his fuel lines, maybe a wire harness, etc.

My smog check experience with my US '83 was similar, the technician asked if everything was stock, and it was, sans the electric fan kit, but he had that glossy eye look when he was mentally sorting through the hood sticker and the vacuum lines. He did visually check for a catalytic and also could not check the gas cap for functionality.

Off topic: Got a dial gauge today so Im going to check/release the flex plate and check the crank end play. I've been told that is more of an '87+ thing, but I figure for me its a fun learning exercise anyways. The motor turns smooth by hand so thats encouraging, Im dying to get it apart to see the condition of things before moving forward. My business tends to slow in the winter months so Im looking forward to spending some more time in the garage and this time around the projects are much less scary than a couple years ago when I had absolutely no clue what I was doing. Now I have just a hint of a clue, really just a smidgen, but hey, that's something.

Thanks again Bob, John, Spencer and all other future contributors. Hoping this thread will become a good future resource for the expanding community and maybe save a few more Euros from the grave.

Richard S

My smog experience was unique...the 84 Euro S engine is in an 80 US car. The smog technicians would treat it as a 1980 car, and expect to see a 1980 US engine. 10-15 years ago most techs didn't really know anything about Porsche 928 engines, so they would hook it up, scratch their heads, see good numbers and let it pass. However it should never have passed a visual inspection. About 5 years ago the smog shops started cracking down on the visual portion. My car is no longer registered in California....

Here's some background on my 84 Euro engine: it was originally from an 84 Euro which was registered in California. The importer installed a small box from a company called Neutronics which basically allowed an O2 sensor to be spliced into the Euro LH computer. The box would allow you to adjust the fuel mixture thru the LH computer.

I never used the Neutronics box, and never installed an O2 sensor. I tested the exhaust without it, and since it passed I never saw the need to hook it up. The results in my previous thread are simply measured thru a stock 1980 US cat.

If you find that your car has a Neutronics box, let me know and I can email a copy of the instructions for it.

Good luck!

Rich

dr bob

Richard, I'm curious what pieces the inspectors took exception with. James M's car, 85 Euro with '85 Euro engine, had some basic running issues that were likely the result of folks fiddling with stuff trying to get it to pass in California. I did some basic stuff to get it to run decently, along with some deferred maintenance (plugs, hoses, timing belt and PKensioner, fuel injectors flushed, etc), but James had the rest done near home on his own schedule after it was shipped. Nothing overt about the euro engine except to a knowing eye, with twin dizzies and all. So what should someone prepare of prepare for when they nned a Euro engine to pass.

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Taking my '89 for the biannual testing there was a lot easier once the tester gained some comfort with me and the car. The first time his new trainee started to look under the car for cats, I alerted him that they were there but hidden by the metal tray. He glanced at the tray and looked no further. he was further confused by the vacuum diagram, since it's a mirror of what's below it. Trainee also gave up after the air pump and filter, plus the plumbing for that was highlighted for him. I firmly believe that I could have smoked almost anything past him, so long as it all looked like something Porsche had supplied. He really really really wanted to find the MIL/check-engine light, and plug in an OBD diagnostic tool too. I need to invent an OBD module that will respond with clean diagnostics even when there is no car attached.

Ladybug83

Good stuff Richard thanks for posting.

I wonder do they have a list of required smog equipment (from the original BAR or federalization) that is associated with each car or model when they run the VIN? Or do they just, like Bob says, go with it if it looks factory and similar to the hood sticker and runs clean. I feel like my smog guy, again like Bob says, just kinda went along with it cuz (1) he asked me, (2) everything looked complete per hood sticker, (3) didn't go as far as checking for O2 sensor, diagnostic plug, etc. But again, that was a US car and it was complete.

Gonna have to find a hood sticker for this car since it's missing. Roooogggeeeeeeeerrrrrrrr!!??

soontobered84

Dr. Bob,

If you designed one, you could probably get very rich........just before the feds came to get you.

Ladybug83

Bob I think VW beat you to it

dr bob

The VW diesel emissions debacle was a clever "solution" to their problem. A long-time friend is now retired from VW/Audi, drove a diesel Passat wagon (when only a few came into the country) that regularly delivered 50+ highway MPG. He upgraded from that to a Toureg with the big TDI diesel for towing, and after some fiddling was able to get some pretty impressive mileage from that too. That was pre- blue amine "exhaust fluid" time. So few of those were produced that no active enforcement action has been applied to them.

To the best of my knowledge, the settlement applies to the 2-liter TDI cars only at this point. Whether the V6 TDI (Toureg, Q7 and Cayenne) is affected I don't know, although it looks like sales of those is still suspended. I foresee an interesting conundrum for the VW companies, where they will have a pretty significant inventory of NOS diesel cars to dispose of. Will they try to retrofit exhaust reactors and filters, then sell them? Lots of tons of expensive metal sitting dormant right now.

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At that Italian company, the cats were completely bypassed whenever the engine load exceeded a certain amount or engine RPM's were up above the "normal" seen on the rollers. The testing protocol was updated following that to include a nore typical drive cycle and the standards changed to grams-per-mile for that portion of the test. Prior to that the cat bypass did meet the Cali requirements but not the federal, so certification became a two-step process.

The fugitive HC emissions test was tough, since the cars, um, 'seeped' a lot of fuel vapors from float-bowl vents into the air cleaner housings.

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At our new location in central Oregon, there are no regular testing requirements. A measurable percentage of the cars and trucks here are gross polluters by accident or on purpose. On the downwind slopes of the Cascades, gross pollution doesn't accumulate here but does of course continue on to be an accumulating problem somewhere else. We do get some interesting haze layers when the wind is stagnant for a day or two. Part of that is natural "emissions" from all the pine and spruce trees, part is automobiles, and part is wood-burning in fireplaces/stoves. The forest around us gets regular "controlled burns" to mitigate wildfire risk a bit, so there are days when the air is pretty thick and brown/yellow with SO2 and PM's of various sizes. The vast majority of the days include air that's been scrubbed for us by the rains on the west side of the mountains, crystal clear and wonderful.

dr bob

I'm not sure that inventing such a module would violate any current laws. Installing it with the sole purpose of evading testing would be a lot closer to criminal intent though. Otherwise, at least on the 928, it's a relatively inert module that does nothing, bypasses nothing, and is connected to nothing. That's my client's story, yer onner.


I probably won't make any.