8 cylinder oilpump???
10-15-2003, 01:01 PM
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8 cylinder oilpump???
Hi fellows !
New to the 928 forum and as a 928 owner ( been in to 911,944t and 944, even 924!) i must ask for some advice !.
My newly bought 928S-83 is smokin oil(blue-ish) when driving in highway speed ( sweden=110km/h) or above and when pushing towards high revs.
It´s not smoking when i lift off and i have given it some service today with oil/filter/plugs aso, just for starting up clean. The car has some history and atleast the heads have been off recently. The old plugs showed white, all 8 !, and had som buildups on them but they where all the same and i think it´s strange if all rings and cylingers should have equal, bad, wear !.
The mileage is very insecure but since the engine has been opened recently and by a well known, highly recommended, Swedish race mecanic i find it strange that he sholud have missed any obvious errors.
Is there any another possibilities, pls...
The car has probably not been driven a lot for a couple of months and i guess it has been running a lot in the city at the same time.
I read as much as i could find on the net last night and found out that mine is not the only one smokin around and that crankcase ventilation seems to be a delicate matter on 928´s.
I red something about a GTS upgrade to put in the filler neck but didn´t understand what that is.. anybody ??
I opened up the line from the fillercap and put on a K&N filter to a hose and boy did it smoke....
There are some strange (to me anyway..) tubing on the passengerside involving vent-tubes, some vaccumvalve and maybe even water. What happens if something fails around there ??
Where is the valvecover connections for crankcaseventilation located. I wonder if everything is absolutely necessary or if it should be possible to simplyfie it a bit, and maybe put in a catch tank. How does the racers set things up ?, its not a common race car in Sweden but there seems to be some in the States.
Iám thinking that if i could take all crankcase pressure away from the intake it should´nt be able to smoke from there anyway.
I made a very unsofisticated catch-tank today and led the oil filler cap straight to it but it still smokes....
As you see, i need some serious help here.
I have tried to give you guy as good background info as possible but pls ask if iám unclear because right now i wonder if this is the last of this engine or it´s just something obvious i don´t see...
/best reg, Per from Sweden
New to the 928 forum and as a 928 owner ( been in to 911,944t and 944, even 924!) i must ask for some advice !.
My newly bought 928S-83 is smokin oil(blue-ish) when driving in highway speed ( sweden=110km/h) or above and when pushing towards high revs.
It´s not smoking when i lift off and i have given it some service today with oil/filter/plugs aso, just for starting up clean. The car has some history and atleast the heads have been off recently. The old plugs showed white, all 8 !, and had som buildups on them but they where all the same and i think it´s strange if all rings and cylingers should have equal, bad, wear !.
The mileage is very insecure but since the engine has been opened recently and by a well known, highly recommended, Swedish race mecanic i find it strange that he sholud have missed any obvious errors.
Is there any another possibilities, pls...
The car has probably not been driven a lot for a couple of months and i guess it has been running a lot in the city at the same time.
I read as much as i could find on the net last night and found out that mine is not the only one smokin around and that crankcase ventilation seems to be a delicate matter on 928´s.
I red something about a GTS upgrade to put in the filler neck but didn´t understand what that is.. anybody ??
I opened up the line from the fillercap and put on a K&N filter to a hose and boy did it smoke....
There are some strange (to me anyway..) tubing on the passengerside involving vent-tubes, some vaccumvalve and maybe even water. What happens if something fails around there ??
Where is the valvecover connections for crankcaseventilation located. I wonder if everything is absolutely necessary or if it should be possible to simplyfie it a bit, and maybe put in a catch tank. How does the racers set things up ?, its not a common race car in Sweden but there seems to be some in the States.
Iám thinking that if i could take all crankcase pressure away from the intake it should´nt be able to smoke from there anyway.
I made a very unsofisticated catch-tank today and led the oil filler cap straight to it but it still smokes....
As you see, i need some serious help here.
I have tried to give you guy as good background info as possible but pls ask if iám unclear because right now i wonder if this is the last of this engine or it´s just something obvious i don´t see...
/best reg, Per from Sweden
10-15-2003, 01:24 PM
#2
Nordschleife Master
Sounds to me like worn rings or valve stem seals.
I'd do a compression test and/or leak-down test on each cylinder.
The tubes and such you describe could be the air injection system. This has a valve near to the air cleaner and lines that run to the back of each cylinder head. The pump is on the right side of the engine front.
I'd do a compression test and/or leak-down test on each cylinder.
The tubes and such you describe could be the air injection system. This has a valve near to the air cleaner and lines that run to the back of each cylinder head. The pump is on the right side of the engine front.
10-15-2003, 02:03 PM
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Hi Glen!
I just thought that rings is one smokescenario, Valve stems another and on all cylinders ???, i just think it´s a bit too much but i guess you may be right..
/Best reg, Per
I just thought that rings is one smokescenario, Valve stems another and on all cylinders ???, i just think it´s a bit too much but i guess you may be right..
/Best reg, Per
10-15-2003, 02:52 PM
#4
Nordschleife Master
Per,
If you've searched on this, maybe you've seen my struggles with oil smoke due to the crankcase ventilation. I eliminated the smoke by using a catch tank. That was just dealing with the symptoms.
There is no crankcase breather that lets air in. I've looked, and asked, but none has been found. I believe that the engine is sealed.
Something else to check is the amount of air blowing out of the engine. Run the car with the PCV hose at the filler off and see what's happening. Some flow is expected so it is hard to judge, but it shouldn't be "blasting" out.
With the hoses connected normally, my car does not smoke in normal operation. Not at start up or in highway driving. But, run it to redline twice quickly and the smoke just explodes!
I will be rebuilding my engine this Winter. Lots of time with the cold and snowy days in my area. Lots of lakes and pine trees. (If that sounds familiar.)
If you've searched on this, maybe you've seen my struggles with oil smoke due to the crankcase ventilation. I eliminated the smoke by using a catch tank. That was just dealing with the symptoms.
There is no crankcase breather that lets air in. I've looked, and asked, but none has been found. I believe that the engine is sealed.
Something else to check is the amount of air blowing out of the engine. Run the car with the PCV hose at the filler off and see what's happening. Some flow is expected so it is hard to judge, but it shouldn't be "blasting" out.
With the hoses connected normally, my car does not smoke in normal operation. Not at start up or in highway driving. But, run it to redline twice quickly and the smoke just explodes!
I will be rebuilding my engine this Winter. Lots of time with the cold and snowy days in my area. Lots of lakes and pine trees. (If that sounds familiar.)
10-15-2003, 03:01 PM
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Same problem with my '78 euro. Oil from the filler cap hose fed into the air box at high revs. I found that the oil seperator basket was dirty and clogged which would not allow oil to drain back into the crankcase very rapidly. Hope cleaning it will help. Also wondering if there is some kind of baffle I can install under the oil fill neck to keep oil from being tossed up out of the crankcase?
10-15-2003, 03:30 PM
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Originally posted by Steve J.
............. Also wondering if there is some kind of baffle I can install under the oil fill neck to keep oil from being tossed up out of the crankcase?
............. Also wondering if there is some kind of baffle I can install under the oil fill neck to keep oil from being tossed up out of the crankcase?
10-15-2003, 03:35 PM
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Glen !
Can you describe how you routed the vaccumlines to and from the catchtank pls!. This afternoon when i did it i connected the one from the fillercap to a tank and then the tank back to the crankcase( to the tube that´s usually connected to the fillercap) !, is this correct and what does the other tube connected to the filler neck connects too?. Seems like its goimg straight down in the "v", to a sheetmetal "thing" ???
Does you catch tank eliminate all your smoke, even highrevving ??
Another thing i find strange is that the car runs so great, probably better (hard too say ofcours) than any other i test drove...??
Steve!, that kind of baffle i thought i read about the other night but wasn´t shoure if it was the baffle in the oilpan or actually something to put in the fillerneck, i.e. like the basket but with a deflectorplate in front of the intakemanifold outlet, stopping oil but not vacuum....does that made any sens to you ??
/Best, Per
/Best, Per
Can you describe how you routed the vaccumlines to and from the catchtank pls!. This afternoon when i did it i connected the one from the fillercap to a tank and then the tank back to the crankcase( to the tube that´s usually connected to the fillercap) !, is this correct and what does the other tube connected to the filler neck connects too?. Seems like its goimg straight down in the "v", to a sheetmetal "thing" ???
Does you catch tank eliminate all your smoke, even highrevving ??
Another thing i find strange is that the car runs so great, probably better (hard too say ofcours) than any other i test drove...??
Steve!, that kind of baffle i thought i read about the other night but wasn´t shoure if it was the baffle in the oilpan or actually something to put in the fillerneck, i.e. like the basket but with a deflectorplate in front of the intakemanifold outlet, stopping oil but not vacuum....does that made any sens to you ??
/Best, Per
/Best, Per
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10-15-2003, 03:54 PM
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Erik, fellow scandinavian !! i saw a pic of your catch-can-setup while "scanning" the forum last night but can´t find it tight now !!. cna you guide me or better get me a simple drawing of your system and "good to knows", pls? Where in Denmark are you?
/Per
/Per
10-15-2003, 04:06 PM
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also Eric, do you have the Devnet fix or do you know what it looks like, or any one else for that matter !, Not to be cheap but things orderd from US to Sweden for this amount tends to dubble it´s price with taxes and so on and it may not be that hard to copy, or..???
/Best reg Per
/Best reg Per
10-15-2003, 04:07 PM
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Erik - the Oil Breather Control Baffle in my printed Devek catalog lists a "new lower price" of $34.50. But on the Devek website the price is $75. If it's just a plastic or sheetmetal plate with vents, $75 seems a little pricey.
10-15-2003, 04:20 PM
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Hey Per and Steve
Send me a e-mail with your address and I will send you a photo and the sketch - saffron@worldonline.dk
No I do not have a sketch of the Devek baffle - But that is a copy of the original GTS baffle, I saw one with Porsche Centrum in Køge - so a quick Porsche stock keeper can find it for you.
But also from Devek, that's not a big deal, that can be sent in an envelope
That is a alu plate with vents and now only 34,50 $ as you said, I do not know the Porsche price
I am situated in Vejen (Between Kolding and Esbjerg)
Regards from Erik in Denmark
Send me a e-mail with your address and I will send you a photo and the sketch - saffron@worldonline.dk
No I do not have a sketch of the Devek baffle - But that is a copy of the original GTS baffle, I saw one with Porsche Centrum in Køge - so a quick Porsche stock keeper can find it for you.
But also from Devek, that's not a big deal, that can be sent in an envelope
That is a alu plate with vents and now only 34,50 $ as you said, I do not know the Porsche price
I am situated in Vejen (Between Kolding and Esbjerg)
Regards from Erik in Denmark
10-15-2003, 05:35 PM
#12
Nordschleife Master
I've got the Devek baffle. A simple piece of sheet metal with angled vents stamped into it.
Per,
Here's the routing system:
The early cars have three rubber lines attached to the filler. The one on the cap is where fumes exit the filler and are sucked into the intake. The line that runs from the bottom of the "can" down the front of the engine carries oil to the crankcase. The third line carries fumes from the crankcase into the filler. The filler can is designed to separate oil from air.
To connect the catch tank, remove the line from the cap. Connect that to the inlet of your catch tank. Connecting the outlet from the tank to the manifold hose would complete the circuit. This can be done but I found that I still had smoke with this configuration.
Apparently the gas flow rate on mine was too high and the oil was not being caught in the tank. With the catch tank outlet not connected back to the manifold hose there was no smoke. The hose is about 1 inch (25mm) and I found a plug for it. I added a breather to the outlet of the catch tank to (hopefully) reduce oil vapors escaping.
With the crankcase "exhaust" running to the catch tank, there was no smoke. When driving it at the track, I found that changing shift points from 6400 rpm to 5800 rpm on the main straight made a big difference in how much was captured. I'd still red-line in the corners.
If you have smoke without the return line connected, then I would think that it is rings or valve seals.
Hope this helps!
Per,
Here's the routing system:
The early cars have three rubber lines attached to the filler. The one on the cap is where fumes exit the filler and are sucked into the intake. The line that runs from the bottom of the "can" down the front of the engine carries oil to the crankcase. The third line carries fumes from the crankcase into the filler. The filler can is designed to separate oil from air.
To connect the catch tank, remove the line from the cap. Connect that to the inlet of your catch tank. Connecting the outlet from the tank to the manifold hose would complete the circuit. This can be done but I found that I still had smoke with this configuration.
Apparently the gas flow rate on mine was too high and the oil was not being caught in the tank. With the catch tank outlet not connected back to the manifold hose there was no smoke. The hose is about 1 inch (25mm) and I found a plug for it. I added a breather to the outlet of the catch tank to (hopefully) reduce oil vapors escaping.
With the crankcase "exhaust" running to the catch tank, there was no smoke. When driving it at the track, I found that changing shift points from 6400 rpm to 5800 rpm on the main straight made a big difference in how much was captured. I'd still red-line in the corners.
If you have smoke without the return line connected, then I would think that it is rings or valve seals.
Hope this helps!
10-15-2003, 09:56 PM
#13
The later 931's (924 turbos) have a factory "catch can" set up using a Purolator AS 902 filter. It has an internal check valve which lets the fumes go to the intake but diverts the oil back to the crankcase. I haven't measured but the hose connections appear to be the same size as the early 928's.
Dennis
Dennis
10-16-2003, 03:03 AM
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Guys!
I buy most of your comments and that the engine´s not new BUT i was, along time ago..., told that oil in the cylinders will give sooty, oily plugs and NOT white/light brown like mine are AND all eight look the same !, how is that possible if there where to be that much of a blow-by ??
This sound to me like it´s really the weak point of the construction here, just courious about the v8 beeing 2x a 944 engine and i never saw any smoke on my 951, even on rather hi load and that had 160000 ks on it, but....guess you never now..
I am not a fan of additives BUT does any of you guys have some thoughts of, for example Wynns products that sells in Sweden as professional adds, rather than K-mart stuff ???
Could it be possible to soften up stem rings with these products ??
Per
I buy most of your comments and that the engine´s not new BUT i was, along time ago..., told that oil in the cylinders will give sooty, oily plugs and NOT white/light brown like mine are AND all eight look the same !, how is that possible if there where to be that much of a blow-by ??
This sound to me like it´s really the weak point of the construction here, just courious about the v8 beeing 2x a 944 engine and i never saw any smoke on my 951, even on rather hi load and that had 160000 ks on it, but....guess you never now..
I am not a fan of additives BUT does any of you guys have some thoughts of, for example Wynns products that sells in Sweden as professional adds, rather than K-mart stuff ???
Could it be possible to soften up stem rings with these products ??
Per
10-16-2003, 04:01 AM
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Originally posted by Per Sällström
Guys!
I buy most of your comments and that the engine´s not new BUT i was, along time ago..., told that oil in the cylinders will give sooty, oily plugs and NOT white/light brown like mine are AND all eight look the same !, how is that possible if there where to be that much of a blow-by ??
Per
Guys!
I buy most of your comments and that the engine´s not new BUT i was, along time ago..., told that oil in the cylinders will give sooty, oily plugs and NOT white/light brown like mine are AND all eight look the same !, how is that possible if there where to be that much of a blow-by ??
Per
Now it sound like you do not want to listen - What is your problem? - Blue smoke! How can the engine produce blue smoke without oil into the cylinders?
- Forget all about magic products, that's only a smart way to get your money out of your pockets!
- Did you make compression test or leak down test? (My old engine made blue smoke at high RPM - There was broken rings and scratched cylinder #4)
- If your engine is not healthy, then better to renew all gaskets and eventual the rings before too late - The gaskets in these old engines gets rotten and the valve stem sealing gets brittle like glass - BTDT! See:
https://rennlist.com/forums/showthre...er+head+gasket
- Keep the RPM below 6000 RPM (I do not go above 5500)
- Install the Devek baffle and eventual my extra oil separator or similar
BTDT - On my trip to 928Euro 2003 meeting in Germany I drove 2900 Km (1800 M) including 2 laps on the ring, and several times 250 Km/h (156 M) on the highway - The oil consumption was less than 1/2 litre!