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Nope, Mark all you KNOW is it looks similar but is made of a different metal....I mean given that you did not even know the size of the throttle body on an S-4 you clearly do not know what you are looking at or talking about...not that there is anything wrong with that. The runs at Nardo were much faster than any "stock" S-4 has ever been capable of and you of all people subscribe to the laws of physics They averaged 179 MPH....
you are forgettting one key element.. the engine with my holbert intake made the exact power as Ron's GT. curve was identitcal. and why wouldnt it be. plus the fact that the larger intake diameters, TB included , did nothing on the dyno with Greg brown. you are right i dont know. but its an educated guess that we shouldnt focus on that subject, because, the point is moot.
Originally Posted by jcorenman
So speaking of the Salsbury:
I'm not going to talk about my vivid dreams, other than to say that they are a LOT more interesting than that..
But I really don't get the obsession with the AM intake. That's a 4.3L motor, right? Which, after tuning, made what? 330 hp? (here and here). That's the problem when you are only making 250 ft-lbs of torque. RPM can only multiply whatever torque is available.
Is that your goal, Mark, 330 hp? Heck, any mildly tuned GT can beat that with a stock intake... Rob's 6.5L is good for ~400 rwhp with a stock intake. We did almost that with 5.9L and an intake that looks completely stock, picture here. What makes you think that an intake optimized for ~300 hp is going to help you out?
you are missing the key point and curiosity of my "obsession " with the AM intake. it got 330rwhp out of a 4.3 liter, an engine 15% smaller. SAME proportions as Robs 5.9L vs a stock 5 liter. because it got these gains, im guessing that most of the gain is due to the Intake, and by its design and dimensions, it makes sense. again, its very close in dimensions to the mustang intake that makes 450rwhp with very little mods out of a 5 liter.
im guessing that the AM intake would bolt on 30 hp to a stock S4 and 50hp to a 6.4 liter like mine.
Originally Posted by Strosek Ultra
A couple of more pictures of the Todd Tremel intake.
Åke
A couple of more pictures of the Todd Tremel intake.
Åke
I am not really supposed to divulge this as it cost me time and money, but what the heck, I never planned on getting rich by selling ITB'ed 928s...
We dyno-ed the race engine with short trumpets similar to the ones in the picture first. And it drove ****. No other way to describe it. From memory it made about 330rwhp. We tried, and I mean we really tried to make something decent out of it. We were stuck at 330-ish...
Then accidentally we knocked one of the trumpets off the ITBs and it felt underneath the car. Getting it back, meant unstrapping the car.
This forced us into attaching the BMW produced long trumpets. By then we had given up - all the fancy lightweight high CR JE Pistons, Colin's cams, 968 valves, Flowed heads, 33lb/hr injectors were in vain. We had one shot at glory....
WHAM!
60rwhp and a ton of torque
after another 2hrs - 434rwhp and shed load of torque and a proper 7000rpm screamer, which makes mince meat out of most cars...
So yes, short trumpets on our NA cars are useless...
I quite like this idea... I am in touch with somebody who will replicate this for my car, with the correct dimensions.... But it takes time - need to make the mould for the runners, then we need to figure out where to fit the filter, airbox size calculation etc
I am not really supposed to divulge this as it cost me time and money, but what the heck, I never planned on getting rich by selling ITB'ed 928s...
We dyno-ed the race engine with short trumpets similar to the ones in the picture first. And it drove ****. No other way to describe it. From memory it made about 330rwhp. We tried, and I mean we really tried to make something decent out of it. We were stuck at 330-ish...
Then accidentally we knocked one of the trumpets off the ITBs and it felt underneath the car. Getting it back, meant unstrapping the car.
This forced us into attaching the BMW produced long trumpets. By then we had given up - all the fancy lightweight high CR JE Pistons, Colin's cams, 968 valves, Flowed heads, 33lb/hr injectors were in vain. We had one shot at glory....
WHAM!
60rwhp and a ton of torque
after another 2hrs - 434rwhp and shed load of torque and a proper 7000rpm screamer, which makes mince meat out of most cars...
So yes, short trumpets on our NA cars are useless...
I quite like this idea... I am in touch with somebody who will replicate this for my car, with the correct dimensions.... But it takes time - need to make the mould for the runners, then we need to figure out where to fit the filter, airbox size calculation etc
what size engine was this? 5 liter screamer with all that good stuff on it, and only 335rwhp.... i guess the short runners are not even a possibility, right?
then, you put on the pictured intake or just a different runner attachment to it?
60 more hp and then even more with tune? wow, thats cool... also interesting how you stumbled upon it too. kind of proves the intake is EVERYTHING! (almost)
I'm coming up with about 14" for runner length for a NA engine. doe that sound about right?
If you are talking about 14" from the opening of the air horn to the intake valve
it is very well tuned for an engine having peak power at about 7500 to 8000 rpm. I think a good compromise is to tune the length of the intake duct at an rpm in the middle between peak torque and peak rpm.
Jake you have expressed your desire to have an engine with a lot of mid range torque, think you should add another three inches to the length.
Åke
If you are talking about 14" from the opening of the air horn to the intake valve
it is very well tuned for an engine having peak power at about 7500 to 8000 rpm. I think a good compromise is to tune the length of the intake duct at an rpm in the middle between peak torque and peak rpm.
Jake you have expressed your desire to have an engine with a lot of mid range torque, think you should add another three inches to the length.
Åke
since our power peaks are in the 5k to 6k range, what would be the formula for the length? seems the AM intake produces peak power at arount 6 to 6500rpm
I am not really supposed to divulge this as it cost me time and money, but what the heck, I never planned on getting rich by selling ITB'ed 928s...
We dyno-ed the race engine with short trumpets similar to the ones in the picture first. And it drove ****. No other way to describe it. From memory it made about 330rwhp. We tried, and I mean we really tried to make something decent out of it. We were stuck at 330-ish...
Then accidentally we knocked one of the trumpets off the ITBs and it felt underneath the car. Getting it back, meant unstrapping the car.
This forced us into attaching the BMW produced long trumpets. By then we had given up - all the fancy lightweight high CR JE Pistons, Colin's cams, 968 valves, Flowed heads, 33lb/hr injectors were in vain. We had one shot at glory....
WHAM!
60rwhp and a ton of torque
after another 2hrs - 434rwhp and shed load of torque and a proper 7000rpm screamer, which makes mince meat out of most cars...
So yes, short trumpets on our NA cars are useless...
Congratulation to a good result. Do you know the total intake duct length for the short trumpets and for the long BMW trumpets?
A guy over here, think he has tried to contact you, has got himself a set of BMW M5 V8 ITBs. I suppose he wants my help installing the ITBs as well as porting of the heads. Will see what we can come up with.
Åke
since our power peaks are in the 5k to 6k range, what would be the formula for the length? seems the AM intake produces peak power at arount 6 to 6500rpm
Here are the charts. Tuning to the 3rd harmonic is to prefer.
Åke
Which means Kibort needs another two inches...... That explains a lot...
Think Mark Kibort made the mistake of his life when he did not buy Mike Simards white race car when it was for sale or did he think 640 hp at the wheels is too much? The camera is sitting in a Honda race car probably putting out some 300 horses.
Åke https://vimeo.com/6460467
Remind me to take both Jim and Mark to a bar and pay for their beer tabs just so I can see where the conversation goes. Oh and let's throw IMO in there just so they have a target with their empty beer bottles.
Came across an interesting data point. If you text mine the archives for the number of times MK has said 'you missed my point', Guess how many separate instances?
Always figured you couldn't count to one, without consulting the Internet.
Because there's only one wrong detail in all of my statements:
I didn't think about the fact that making them that way on my lathe made them very slightly eliptical....I just made them and used them.
Guess I should have just read the Internet and not actually have done it, like you do.
Oh wait....then I wouldn't know that a bigger butterfly made no more horsepower on a stock manifold...which was the answer to the original question.
That one detail is quite important. Because those who know that butterfly valves aren't round, when you say you just turn round ones on the lathe, we think that there is something wrong with what you did and that's why there was no gain (although in this case at WOT round or elliptical makes zero difference). Details are important.
Originally Posted by Strosek Ultra
If you are talking about 14" from the opening of the air horn to the intake valve
it is very well tuned for an engine having peak power at about 7500 to 8000 rpm. I think a good compromise is to tune the length of the intake duct at an rpm in the middle between peak torque and peak rpm.
Jake you have expressed your desire to have an engine with a lot of mid range torque, think you should add another three inches to the length.
Åke
That's what she said....
Originally Posted by Mongo
Remind me to take both Jim and Mark to a bar and pay for their beer tabs just so I can see where the conversation goes. Oh and let's throw IMO in there just so they have a target with their empty beer bottles.
Be careful. He will catch them fill them with Slivovitz and toss them back with a burning rag in the opening.... lol
04-11-2016, 12:35 PM
They averaged 179 MPH....
