Lingering Question about S4 Engines Achieving 400HP
03-03-2016, 08:50 PM
#16
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03-03-2016, 09:07 PM
#17
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Why not 
I think you need to do so, you may be surprised, other than that N2O would be the easiest and least expensive route, however you will need to back out advance 2degs for ever 50 hp you add.
I've been spraying 150 shot for years, just flip the switch and hit the go peddle
puts a BIG GRIN on every time
Then decide if you want to spend SC or a Turbo ($), either way you will need wider tires in the back
I think you need to do so, you may be surprised, other than that N2O would be the easiest and least expensive route, however you will need to back out advance 2degs for ever 50 hp you add.
I've been spraying 150 shot for years, just flip the switch and hit the go peddle
puts a BIG GRIN on every time
Then decide if you want to spend SC or a Turbo ($), either way you will need wider tires in the back
03-03-2016, 09:37 PM
#18
Rainman
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Get a set of 85/86 or other cams ground to match stock 944S specs, or slightly hotter.
Get a real nice tune going to match the cams...
I think that's all it should take.
944S got 188hp out of (basically) the same cylinder head, from 2.5L and breathing through an AFM (coffee straw). And passed emissions.
Converting the 944S to a MAF and tweaking the tune makes an even 200HP.
You have the advantage of a MAF and tuning capability already...and twice the displacement to work with, and perhaps better exhaust scavenging potential with the X-pipe.
Get a real nice tune going to match the cams...
I think that's all it should take.
944S got 188hp out of (basically) the same cylinder head, from 2.5L and breathing through an AFM (coffee straw). And passed emissions.
Converting the 944S to a MAF and tweaking the tune makes an even 200HP.
You have the advantage of a MAF and tuning capability already...and twice the displacement to work with, and perhaps better exhaust scavenging potential with the X-pipe.
03-03-2016, 10:25 PM
#19
Nordschleife Master
A set of my new high performance cams, MSDS headers, and a mild tune will get you 350+rwhp.... That's over 400crank right there.
My cams with Xpipe would probably get you 400 crank as well and much easier to pass CA emissions.
My cams with Xpipe would probably get you 400 crank as well and much easier to pass CA emissions.
03-03-2016, 10:43 PM
#20
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My plan for more juice. I am not a wrench, total reliability is key, is this approach rational? Start point 1990 perfect condition auto S4. Add Xpipe plus high flow cats from Roger, plus Colin GT cams, springs and injector upgrade, plus chip and shark tune. Plus labor for for all, say for 60 horsepower gain, approx $7k investment total. Hero, or idiot?
03-03-2016, 11:03 PM
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My plan for more juice. I am not a wrench, total reliability is key, is this approach rational? Start point 1990 perfect condition auto S4. Add Xpipe plus high flow cats from Roger, plus Colin GT cams, springs and injector upgrade, plus chip and shark tune. Plus labor for for all, say for 60 horsepower gain, approx $7k investment total. Hero, or idiot?
03-04-2016, 02:02 AM
#22
Pro
Hey Mongo.
It's "elephant in the room time", again. ):-]
Viz Porsche's terrible intake tract/manifold design for the S4 and up. (I've not looked closely at pre '87 intake manifolds).
After much study of intake manifold aerodynamics (including Computerised Flow Dynamic modelling), I made alterations/additions to my S4 upper manifold, throttle body (TB) plenum, and pre-TB intake tract.
The performance improvement far exceeded all expectations. :-D :-D :-D
In simplest terms, the throttle response changed from "Ohhh - you mean me - ok, give me a second ... " to "Ohhh sh******t - where did that come from?"
And it only got better as the rpm's rose. A 50mph 3rd gear roll-on puts the biggest grin on yer face. Wheeeee ... :-D
I copped a lot of flack from "The Establishment", principally, as I recall, because of poor quality workmanship. Huh? This was simply "proof of concept" chuck-it-together stuff. Which really worked. LOL.
Yet despite offers of assistance, not a single Rennlist Sharkie has attempted to replicate my work for the purpose of confirming/denying its validity.
I mean, it's not difficult. Materials cost is maybe $50-$60. About 10+ hours work under my guidance.
Stock "everything", from the air filter to the tailpipe.
You will NEVER achieve so much bang-for-buck as you will with these mods. Moreover, the benefit gained from any previous performance improvements will only be magnified by the improved intake tract airflow.
Now, if I were to put my money behind any other performance improvement development, it would be with Porken's S300s chipset. Why? Because Ken has delved into the subtleties of un-equal breathing (and therefore combustion, optimum ignition timing etc) within each cylinder. A terrific piece of insight.
I would like to think that the combination of my intake flow improvements, coupled with Ken's chip design, will produce a very satisfying performance boost at very minimal cost.
I know this could be somewhat confrontational to all those who have spent many $000's on everything from air filters to headers (and don't want to think their $$$ have been spent in vain, let alone nailed their ego's to a particular performance mantra).
Anyway I'll leave all participants to decide their own responses.
In my situation, every time I drive my Shark now (a year later) I still come home with a big wide grin all over my face. The driving character has changed.
Gone is the long, slow stodgy appeal of the slow throttle response to the over '70's. Nope. No more. You want "point and shoot"? Well here it is.
Upfixen.
It's "elephant in the room time", again. ):-]
Viz Porsche's terrible intake tract/manifold design for the S4 and up. (I've not looked closely at pre '87 intake manifolds).
After much study of intake manifold aerodynamics (including Computerised Flow Dynamic modelling), I made alterations/additions to my S4 upper manifold, throttle body (TB) plenum, and pre-TB intake tract.
The performance improvement far exceeded all expectations. :-D :-D :-D
In simplest terms, the throttle response changed from "Ohhh - you mean me - ok, give me a second ... " to "Ohhh sh******t - where did that come from?"
And it only got better as the rpm's rose. A 50mph 3rd gear roll-on puts the biggest grin on yer face. Wheeeee ... :-D
I copped a lot of flack from "The Establishment", principally, as I recall, because of poor quality workmanship. Huh? This was simply "proof of concept" chuck-it-together stuff. Which really worked. LOL.
Yet despite offers of assistance, not a single Rennlist Sharkie has attempted to replicate my work for the purpose of confirming/denying its validity.
I mean, it's not difficult. Materials cost is maybe $50-$60. About 10+ hours work under my guidance.
Stock "everything", from the air filter to the tailpipe.
You will NEVER achieve so much bang-for-buck as you will with these mods. Moreover, the benefit gained from any previous performance improvements will only be magnified by the improved intake tract airflow.
Now, if I were to put my money behind any other performance improvement development, it would be with Porken's S300s chipset. Why? Because Ken has delved into the subtleties of un-equal breathing (and therefore combustion, optimum ignition timing etc) within each cylinder. A terrific piece of insight.
I would like to think that the combination of my intake flow improvements, coupled with Ken's chip design, will produce a very satisfying performance boost at very minimal cost.
I know this could be somewhat confrontational to all those who have spent many $000's on everything from air filters to headers (and don't want to think their $$$ have been spent in vain, let alone nailed their ego's to a particular performance mantra).
Anyway I'll leave all participants to decide their own responses.
In my situation, every time I drive my Shark now (a year later) I still come home with a big wide grin all over my face. The driving character has changed.
Gone is the long, slow stodgy appeal of the slow throttle response to the over '70's. Nope. No more. You want "point and shoot"? Well here it is.Upfixen.
03-04-2016, 04:48 AM
#23
Racer
making power other a N/A engines and more than that, it is a V8 engine
SO there is not a 1 and only good response to your question, why 400 HP is better than 320 HP, HP make sales, Torque make victories or something like that!
But, if the goal is to achieve A 20% gain in HP, you have to know firstly than HP is Torque X RPM, so you have to achieve 2 goals, higher torque and eventually higher RPM.
The reality of street drive, is that you need power form 3000 to 6000 RPM, and your engine is not design for higher RPM (8000 for exemple!). If your goals mean higher RPM, so you probably should think about internal change.
Then, what to do? You should think about your own goals. If you want more power in the basic RPM range of your V8 engine, so the goal is to make Higher torque a that RPM range.
So, how achieve that goal? I would say harmonic! It is to say improve then engine in 3 related subject.
Lenght and design of intake, lenght and design of exhaust and ignition timing. But I don't think that, without make engine internal improvement, you would be able to make 20% more torque!
Minor change would be the timing of the valve. but 20% more torque !!! I doubt
I did not say yet that what it makes more torque is better cylinder breathing, ie more internal airflow!
The reality is, it is so difficult to make a good answer, because the design of intake and exhaust which are related would improve torque but in a specific range of RPM and so you have first to define what is really your goal. For example : I want to burn each of you at 3000 RPM which certainly mean that you might be no where @ 6000!
SO there is not a 1 and only good response to your question, why 400 HP is better than 320 HP, HP make sales, Torque make victories or something like that!
But, if the goal is to achieve A 20% gain in HP, you have to know firstly than HP is Torque X RPM, so you have to achieve 2 goals, higher torque and eventually higher RPM.
The reality of street drive, is that you need power form 3000 to 6000 RPM, and your engine is not design for higher RPM (8000 for exemple!). If your goals mean higher RPM, so you probably should think about internal change.
Then, what to do? You should think about your own goals. If you want more power in the basic RPM range of your V8 engine, so the goal is to make Higher torque a that RPM range.
So, how achieve that goal? I would say harmonic! It is to say improve then engine in 3 related subject.
Lenght and design of intake, lenght and design of exhaust and ignition timing. But I don't think that, without make engine internal improvement, you would be able to make 20% more torque!
Minor change would be the timing of the valve. but 20% more torque !!! I doubt
I did not say yet that what it makes more torque is better cylinder breathing, ie more internal airflow!
The reality is, it is so difficult to make a good answer, because the design of intake and exhaust which are related would improve torque but in a specific range of RPM and so you have first to define what is really your goal. For example : I want to burn each of you at 3000 RPM which certainly mean that you might be no where @ 6000!
03-04-2016, 02:00 PM
#24
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making power other a N/A engines and more than that, it is a V8 engine
SO there is not a 1 and only good response to your question, why 400 HP is better than 320 HP, HP make sales, Torque make victories or something like that!
But, if the goal is to achieve A 20% gain in HP, you have to know firstly than HP is Torque X RPM, so you have to achieve 2 goals, higher torque and eventually higher RPM.
The reality of street drive, is that you need power form 3000 to 6000 RPM, and your engine is not design for higher RPM (8000 for exemple!). If your goals mean higher RPM, so you probably should think about internal change.
Then, what to do? You should think about your own goals. If you want more power in the basic RPM range of your V8 engine, so the goal is to make Higher torque a that RPM range.
So, how achieve that goal? I would say harmonic! It is to say improve then engine in 3 related subject.
Lenght and design of intake, lenght and design of exhaust and ignition timing. But I don't think that, without make engine internal improvement, you would be able to make 20% more torque!
Minor change would be the timing of the valve. but 20% more torque !!! I doubt
I did not say yet that what it makes more torque is better cylinder breathing, ie more internal airflow!
The reality is, it is so difficult to make a good answer, because the design of intake and exhaust which are related would improve torque but in a specific range of RPM and so you have first to define what is really your goal. For example : I want to burn each of you at 3000 RPM which certainly mean that you might be no where @ 6000!
SO there is not a 1 and only good response to your question, why 400 HP is better than 320 HP, HP make sales, Torque make victories or something like that!
But, if the goal is to achieve A 20% gain in HP, you have to know firstly than HP is Torque X RPM, so you have to achieve 2 goals, higher torque and eventually higher RPM.
The reality of street drive, is that you need power form 3000 to 6000 RPM, and your engine is not design for higher RPM (8000 for exemple!). If your goals mean higher RPM, so you probably should think about internal change.
Then, what to do? You should think about your own goals. If you want more power in the basic RPM range of your V8 engine, so the goal is to make Higher torque a that RPM range.
So, how achieve that goal? I would say harmonic! It is to say improve then engine in 3 related subject.
Lenght and design of intake, lenght and design of exhaust and ignition timing. But I don't think that, without make engine internal improvement, you would be able to make 20% more torque!
Minor change would be the timing of the valve. but 20% more torque !!! I doubt
I did not say yet that what it makes more torque is better cylinder breathing, ie more internal airflow!
The reality is, it is so difficult to make a good answer, because the design of intake and exhaust which are related would improve torque but in a specific range of RPM and so you have first to define what is really your goal. For example : I want to burn each of you at 3000 RPM which certainly mean that you might be no where @ 6000!
There's some amazing insight and logic above^^^^.
I think I can add a little bit to this, which will help the OP.
It's important to think about the rpm ranges that a 928 normally operates in....especially an S4. The automatic cars are "high gear" seekers. Unless you have you foot pretty well stuffed into the accelerator, they are going to find high gear pretty quickly. Driving one around town, they rarely get over 2,000 rpm. Even spirited driving rarely gets one above 3.500 rpms.
That means one needs to think about what one's goals are, because getting 400 horsepower doesn't mean you increased the torque in the rpm range that you drive in.
One always needs to keep in mind that if one trades higher rpm horsepower for lower rpm torque and drives in the lower rpms 90% of the time, they have done a negative net thing.
The only way to increase lower rpm torque in a existing naturally aspirated engine is to either improve the efficiency of the engine or increase the displacement.
As one would expect, my street strokers increase the torque in the lower rpms. These engines are fun to drive (and accelerate better) everywhere in the rpm range....from idle to redline....because they increase the torque everywhere. They are wonderful, even just cruising around town....you feel the torque change 100% of the time. They are a fantastic addition to an automatic 928. The downside is that they require major internal engine work and thus are expensive.
So, for the person looking to just add external components to the engine, what is possible and will you feel that change in the rpm range you drive?
Tuning:
Yes, this may help. Changing the amount of fuel that is delivered to the engine and changing the ignition timing may be beneficial. Generic chips tuned for one application may help...if you have the exact same engine that the chip was designed around....with the same exact modifications. If you do anything different that what that chip was designed on, it will not have optimum tuning for your engine. In this case, individual tuning is required. The "Sharktuner and Sharkplotter" are made for this application and work fantastic.
Exhaust:
Headers, x-pipes, getting rid of the cats will generally help the efficiency of the engine, even in the lower rpm ranges. If you live in states with more monitored emission standards (California) this can be a real tricky situation. It is also important to realize that there is huge pressure to decrease pollution, so it is very likely that all states will have "California Style" testing in the near future. Note that it is not necessary to create new laws, but simply enforce existing laws (and fines) to "attack" this problem. It is illegal to de-federalize (remove the cats) on any existing car, with huge "on the books" fines. The feds have "cracked down" on this before....and will absolutely crack down on it again. I think that the makers and distributors of any X-pipe that is designed to replace the cats is going to be really sorry, in the near future (last time around, the feds literally fined the people that made or distributed these pieces into either jail or bankruptcy.)
I make a complete stainless header and exhaust system, using California approved cats that makes 30-40 more horsepower. Huge increases in efficiency with legal cats still in place. Yes, this efficiency increases at lower rpms, which means one benefits from the change at low rpms. Yes, a complete hand built stainless exhaust from the front of the car to the rear of the car, with legal cats, is more expensive than removing the cats with an x-pipe.
Intake:
No doubt the stock intake is restrictive. I have not personally been able to see dyno improvements that significantly increase torque by modifying the stock manifold....and I've worked on these manifolds for literally hundreds of hours. Applying every trick I've found, I've seen gains in the 6%-8% range, which is not cost effective time spent, unless you have the ability/desire to do this work yourself.
We did bolt on one of my prototype custom intake manifold onto Jim Corenman's Gt and saw some really significant gains (about 40hp). I've been working on and testing prototypes of custom intakes for about 3 years. We are currently going into production of one of these prototypes and will be testing later this year. We have high hopes that these manifolds will be a great resource for the stock engines.
Camshafts:
I've been putting GT cams into S4 engines, for years. They work great and greatly improve both the torque and the horsepower. 80hp increase? Well, a GT didn't make 400hp, so doubtful that a set of GT cams in a S4 is going to accomplish that. I have not installed Colin's cams into a stock engine, but I have no doubt they would be an improvement, over the stock cams, also. An 80hp gain? Well, those cams have been "run" on several "dyno simulation" programs, without anywhere near those results......and dyno simulation testing is pretty refined and accurate, these days, especially when modifying an existing engine with given power output. Colin claims to have measured these kinds of gains and I have no reason to doubt him, but I'd love to see results on a totally independent dyno test.
I need to go to work....I'll add more later.
__________________
greg brown
714 879 9072
GregBBRD@aol.com
Semi-retired, as of Feb 1, 2023.
The days of free technical advice are over.
Free consultations will no longer be available.
Will still be in the shop, isolated and exclusively working on project cars, developmental work and products, engines and transmissions.
Have fun with your 928's people!
greg brown
714 879 9072
GregBBRD@aol.com
Semi-retired, as of Feb 1, 2023.
The days of free technical advice are over.
Free consultations will no longer be available.
Will still be in the shop, isolated and exclusively working on project cars, developmental work and products, engines and transmissions.
Have fun with your 928's people!
Last edited by GregBBRD; 03-04-2016 at 04:54 PM.
03-04-2016, 02:16 PM
#25
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There is a lot of good advice and knowledge on this thread I am seeing. I wish I started it earlier rather than having it in the back of my mind. I have seen so many people on here put together some amazing works of art (Greg being most well known), and Jim Morton & Dennis who have the black car screaming on the dyno in a Youtube video that still my makes my ears bleed because I love to crank the volume up to hear the shriek.
While I know there is no easy recipe for my 400HP goal, I am not looking for more RPM, but something to put it where I believe the 928's power should have always been at. Being an auto driver, torque is crucial and like Greg said, most of us don't really see high RPMs. Opening the valve covers proved this point when there was practically no wear on my chain tensioner pads.
I would love to do cams some day, which would really wake up the car. First I have to install Ken's S300s and put the x-pipe back on to at least see where the car is at power-wise before taking any additional steps. I have never established a baseline dyno for my car yet either, which should be done first and foremost while I still have the factory cats on.
While I know there is no easy recipe for my 400HP goal, I am not looking for more RPM, but something to put it where I believe the 928's power should have always been at. Being an auto driver, torque is crucial and like Greg said, most of us don't really see high RPMs. Opening the valve covers proved this point when there was practically no wear on my chain tensioner pads.
I would love to do cams some day, which would really wake up the car. First I have to install Ken's S300s and put the x-pipe back on to at least see where the car is at power-wise before taking any additional steps. I have never established a baseline dyno for my car yet either, which should be done first and foremost while I still have the factory cats on.
03-04-2016, 02:37 PM
#26
Nordschleife Master
A few notes that I would like to add for the off the line power, and bottom end power on the 928.
A GT has more lift and duration than an S4. It has more bottom end power as well.
I saw an improvement in power right from idle to redline with my cams in torque and HP.
Additionally, the 928 87-95 is tuned to 14.7:1 AFR unless the WOT switch is engaged. Even then, the ignition curve down low is very conservative.
Thankfully the ST2 and some of its software allows us to make it so that the car is no longer always following that 14.7:1 afr. By richening up the bottom end AFR when you have higher loads at lower speeds, one can then add more advance and really wake up the bottom end.
Just ask Roger Tyson how much more off the line grunt his GTS has since its been tuned. 1st and second seemed unuseable.... It would break the tires free shifting from 1st to second if at WOT.....
The stock flow that our heads have will support much more BHP than we are achieving.
Alex Popov saw 430rwhp with the GTS 5.4L my cams, headers, M5 throttle bodies, and a bump in CR to 12:1 iirc. That is numbers that the Z06 corvette puts down with 7L.
I saw 352rwhp with cams and MSDS headers. That was with an AFR of 12:1 at anything over 4k RPM. That is already well above 400crank ponies.
Think of what a proper intake, and a set of Greg's headers would do. It would be a very nice setup, with respectable numbers.
One doesn't have to be a rocket scientist to look at our intakes, and stock exhaust and see that there is power to be had.
But a custom intake to get that power would cost 4k or more, even if it gave us 80bhp, how many would spend the $$$
I know someone on this board is working on a 400hp 16V with stock heads and internals. I have no doubt they will reach it. The head numbers and CR will support it, just need the rest of the gear to go with it.
Instead of bickering and saying it's not possible, as many on here do, be creative and try new things. Adapt new technology to the engine, put time and energy in. If it doesn't increase, you will have at least learned something from it. Besides, what else would you have spent your time and money on? Football and beer? LOL, at least with the 928, it will be able to be enjoyed more than once!
A GT has more lift and duration than an S4. It has more bottom end power as well.
I saw an improvement in power right from idle to redline with my cams in torque and HP.
Additionally, the 928 87-95 is tuned to 14.7:1 AFR unless the WOT switch is engaged. Even then, the ignition curve down low is very conservative.
Thankfully the ST2 and some of its software allows us to make it so that the car is no longer always following that 14.7:1 afr. By richening up the bottom end AFR when you have higher loads at lower speeds, one can then add more advance and really wake up the bottom end.
Just ask Roger Tyson how much more off the line grunt his GTS has since its been tuned. 1st and second seemed unuseable.... It would break the tires free shifting from 1st to second if at WOT.....
The stock flow that our heads have will support much more BHP than we are achieving.
Alex Popov saw 430rwhp with the GTS 5.4L my cams, headers, M5 throttle bodies, and a bump in CR to 12:1 iirc. That is numbers that the Z06 corvette puts down with 7L.
I saw 352rwhp with cams and MSDS headers. That was with an AFR of 12:1 at anything over 4k RPM. That is already well above 400crank ponies.
Think of what a proper intake, and a set of Greg's headers would do. It would be a very nice setup, with respectable numbers.
One doesn't have to be a rocket scientist to look at our intakes, and stock exhaust and see that there is power to be had.
But a custom intake to get that power would cost 4k or more, even if it gave us 80bhp, how many would spend the $$$
I know someone on this board is working on a 400hp 16V with stock heads and internals. I have no doubt they will reach it. The head numbers and CR will support it, just need the rest of the gear to go with it.
Instead of bickering and saying it's not possible, as many on here do, be creative and try new things. Adapt new technology to the engine, put time and energy in. If it doesn't increase, you will have at least learned something from it. Besides, what else would you have spent your time and money on? Football and beer? LOL, at least with the 928, it will be able to be enjoyed more than once!
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03-04-2016, 03:28 PM
#27
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How about from a fuel injection standpoint? Ken has tuned the S4 to make more power with 24lb injectors. How about bigger injectors, like 30s? You can throw more timing at the motor and yield more power (theoretically).
How are the LS guys doing it with Vettes and GTOs? I surf LS1Tech all the time and see just amazing gains by taking some ****ty 4.8L LR4 from a Silverado, slap on an LS6 intake, pop in a cam from the ZO6 and achieve 400+HP with a tune on a motor that once put out only 285HP.
I guess I am indirectly trying to say we should all put our heads together here, and maybe this thread will allow us all to work at this. Put aside your differences about who builds a better product. Multiple heads are better than one.
How are the LS guys doing it with Vettes and GTOs? I surf LS1Tech all the time and see just amazing gains by taking some ****ty 4.8L LR4 from a Silverado, slap on an LS6 intake, pop in a cam from the ZO6 and achieve 400+HP with a tune on a motor that once put out only 285HP.
I guess I am indirectly trying to say we should all put our heads together here, and maybe this thread will allow us all to work at this. Put aside your differences about who builds a better product. Multiple heads are better than one.
03-04-2016, 03:30 PM
#28
Rennlist Member
Grunt is what you want!
I'm just a guy with a few 928s. In my opinion HP is over rated. Torque is what you want. I have an 86.5 with all the Porken goodies. I also have a V12 928 with Megasquirt, vvti and variable length intake.
The 86.5 is an impressive machine when it gets in the zone, but the V12 with over 320ft/lbs @ 1200rpm is a monster! I can fishtail down the highway at 60mph, well under full throttle.
Ask Tony77.
I love Megasquirt, its tunability and an exhaust with a little backpressure.
How often do you really drive at high rpm any way?
Design for grunt, its way more fun in the real world!
Best regards, Dins
The 86.5 is an impressive machine when it gets in the zone, but the V12 with over 320ft/lbs @ 1200rpm is a monster! I can fishtail down the highway at 60mph, well under full throttle.
Ask Tony77.
I love Megasquirt, its tunability and an exhaust with a little backpressure.
How often do you really drive at high rpm any way?
Design for grunt, its way more fun in the real world!
Best regards, Dins
03-04-2016, 04:19 PM
#29
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Yup, it's that easy.
1. Buy Colins cams
2. Buy Gregs intake & headers
3. Take it to a shop and he it tuned.
You will never achieve LS power for LS money with a 928 engine. The volume simply isn't there to justify such a production run.
Did you click on the link I posted above?
You like the power of muscle cars.
I prefer the powerband of a sports car. No right or wrong answer, just different preferences.
I've driven enough big block Corvette's that can pull your house across the street. I'll take a high revving small block any day of the week over them. One of my favorite cars to drive is the 355 Ferrari, no torque to speak of but that's why you have more than one gear...... Last time I checked the 928 isn't equipped with a 2-speed power-glide.
Every time I drive my 928, as often as possible.
Greg's post about the nature of the automatic is about the only reasonable explanation why anyone would prefer a high torque, low RPM engine in a 928 (for those with a RogerBox)
However, we are not dealing with a VTEC 4-banger here. I have yet to see any performance built 928 engine (boosted or otherwise) that didn't have enough torque for spirited daily driving.
Frankly I think this debate is over rated. I think someone would have to go out of their way to build a 400hp 928 engine with a poor torque band.
At the end of the day what are we really after? I thought it was to go faster than the next guy, which means shifting at readline.....where all the horsepower is.
1. Buy Colins cams
2. Buy Gregs intake & headers
3. Take it to a shop and he it tuned.
You will never achieve LS power for LS money with a 928 engine. The volume simply isn't there to justify such a production run.
Did you click on the link I posted above?
You like the power of muscle cars.
I prefer the powerband of a sports car. No right or wrong answer, just different preferences.
I've driven enough big block Corvette's that can pull your house across the street. I'll take a high revving small block any day of the week over them. One of my favorite cars to drive is the 355 Ferrari, no torque to speak of but that's why you have more than one gear...... Last time I checked the 928 isn't equipped with a 2-speed power-glide.
Every time I drive my 928, as often as possible.
Greg's post about the nature of the automatic is about the only reasonable explanation why anyone would prefer a high torque, low RPM engine in a 928 (for those with a RogerBox)
However, we are not dealing with a VTEC 4-banger here. I have yet to see any performance built 928 engine (boosted or otherwise) that didn't have enough torque for spirited daily driving.
Frankly I think this debate is over rated. I think someone would have to go out of their way to build a 400hp 928 engine with a poor torque band.
At the end of the day what are we really after? I thought it was to go faster than the next guy, which means shifting at readline.....where all the horsepower is.
03-04-2016, 05:05 PM
#30
Official Bay Area Patriot
Fuse 24 Assassin
Rennlist Member
Fuse 24 Assassin
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
Hey Erik, yep I definitely read it. Very interesting and really helpful in giving me ideas on what to look for, even when I begin teardown of the entire engine for rebuild (which probably won't be for a very long time since I only put 300-600 miles a year on the car).
I wasn't expecting to pay LS prices with 928 upgrades or I would have gone the Corvette route (hell I'm actually thinking of doing a swapped LS 944 as a track car later on and excited at the thought of it), but the 928 is unique and that is why I choose to put more heart and soul into this project.
I wasn't expecting to pay LS prices with 928 upgrades or I would have gone the Corvette route (hell I'm actually thinking of doing a swapped LS 944 as a track car later on and excited at the thought of it), but the 928 is unique and that is why I choose to put more heart and soul into this project.