Phoenix 928 garage? 88 S4 needs suspension work
12-15-2015, 12:25 PM
#1
Thread Starter
Phoenix 928 garage? 88 S4 needs suspension work
Hi guys
I discovered he inside edge of my front left tire was worn down almost to the core at the tire rotation (new tires with about >10k miles on them). All the other tires are ok. The car doesn't pull, shudder or have any handling problems. I have an 88 S4 manual with 67k miles.
Took it into my local exotic garage who states that all the bushings are bad, and that I need to completely "refresh" the entire suspension including: Upper A arm replacement, rear control arm bushings, Rear Upper banana link kit, Weissach bushings, high rear camber pockets, rear camber eccentric bolts, front lower swing arm, front lower ball joints, solid steering rack mounts (the steering rack was replaced 6 months ago by this garage), Bilstien suspension kit and hypercoil, and 4 strut/shock rubber mounts.
The also recommended the front sway bar kit and mounts and adjustable rear droplinks and rear sway bar bushings as "optional".
the grand total on all this for parts and labor is a whopping $9852.76.
Rip off?
Does anybody have a good shop in PHX that does this kind of work that they can recommend for a second opinion?
Thanks!
Brian
I discovered he inside edge of my front left tire was worn down almost to the core at the tire rotation (new tires with about >10k miles on them). All the other tires are ok. The car doesn't pull, shudder or have any handling problems. I have an 88 S4 manual with 67k miles.
Took it into my local exotic garage who states that all the bushings are bad, and that I need to completely "refresh" the entire suspension including: Upper A arm replacement, rear control arm bushings, Rear Upper banana link kit, Weissach bushings, high rear camber pockets, rear camber eccentric bolts, front lower swing arm, front lower ball joints, solid steering rack mounts (the steering rack was replaced 6 months ago by this garage), Bilstien suspension kit and hypercoil, and 4 strut/shock rubber mounts.
The also recommended the front sway bar kit and mounts and adjustable rear droplinks and rear sway bar bushings as "optional".
the grand total on all this for parts and labor is a whopping $9852.76.
Rip off?
Does anybody have a good shop in PHX that does this kind of work that they can recommend for a second opinion?
Thanks!
Brian
12-15-2015, 12:51 PM
#2
Rennlist Member
For everything that they're planning to do, that price doesn't sound too bad. However, I think what they're planning to do is learn how to work on a 928 on your dime. seems like a lot of unnecessary replacement going on. Solid rack bushings? Adjustable drop links?
Take your car to a 928 mechanic (someone who already knows how and is familiar with 928's) and not just an exotic car shop or a generic Porsche shop. Someone from the PHX area will chime in soon with a recommendation.
Take your car to a 928 mechanic (someone who already knows how and is familiar with 928's) and not just an exotic car shop or a generic Porsche shop. Someone from the PHX area will chime in soon with a recommendation.
12-15-2015, 01:20 PM
#5
Rennlist Member
Hi guys
I discovered he inside edge of my front left tire was worn down almost to the core at the tire rotation (new tires with about >10k miles on them). All the other tires are ok. The car doesn't pull, shudder or have any handling problems. I have an 88 S4 manual with 67k miles.
Took it into my local exotic garage who states that all the bushings are bad, and that I need to completely "refresh" the entire suspension including: Upper A arm replacement, rear control arm bushings, Rear Upper banana link kit, Weissach bushings, high rear camber pockets, rear camber eccentric bolts, front lower swing arm, front lower ball joints, solid steering rack mounts (the steering rack was replaced 6 months ago by this garage), Bilstien suspension kit and hypercoil, and 4 strut/shock rubber mounts.
The also recommended the front sway bar kit and mounts and adjustable rear droplinks and rear sway bar bushings as "optional".
the grand total on all this for parts and labor is a whopping $9852.76.
Rip off?
Does anybody have a good shop in PHX that does this kind of work that they can recommend for a second opinion?
Thanks!
Brian
I discovered he inside edge of my front left tire was worn down almost to the core at the tire rotation (new tires with about >10k miles on them). All the other tires are ok. The car doesn't pull, shudder or have any handling problems. I have an 88 S4 manual with 67k miles.
Took it into my local exotic garage who states that all the bushings are bad, and that I need to completely "refresh" the entire suspension including: Upper A arm replacement, rear control arm bushings, Rear Upper banana link kit, Weissach bushings, high rear camber pockets, rear camber eccentric bolts, front lower swing arm, front lower ball joints, solid steering rack mounts (the steering rack was replaced 6 months ago by this garage), Bilstien suspension kit and hypercoil, and 4 strut/shock rubber mounts.
The also recommended the front sway bar kit and mounts and adjustable rear droplinks and rear sway bar bushings as "optional".
the grand total on all this for parts and labor is a whopping $9852.76.
Rip off?
Does anybody have a good shop in PHX that does this kind of work that they can recommend for a second opinion?
Thanks!
Brian
WAY too many things on that list to be bad with that many miles.
You can easily swap out inner and outter tie rods yourself, and lower ball joints, and following a good writeup even the rack bushings yourself...with those being the hardest, but still very doable as a non mechanic.
Not sure ive heard of all the eccentric bolts being bad, or rarely ANY of them, or unless chunks of aluminum are missing the alignment pockets, never heard of weissach bushings bad...
$200 for a pair of inner+outter tie rods ($100/kit I get at Winchester auto), the front lower ball joints and kinda pricey..but get em, front eccentrics should be fine, they rarely wear or flat spot, rack bushings...cheap.
Upper rear arms..ya..they can go bad, but thats just a minor rear camber issue, just align both to be even on camber and its OK...
You have a shop that wants to go all in on 30yrs old car.
Do the -basic- full refresh of the front end steering system minus the rack unless it's leaking, and lower ball joints, and report back.
All of that is maybe...5hrs of work to do yourself. And it's a good time to buy a 27 and 32mm pair of wrenches, the inner ball joints need the 32mm I think (or the other)..but in the end you have a handful of uses for both of those on a 928, you only need them when you dont have them.
Wish I was there to help.
12-15-2015, 01:37 PM
#7
Chronic Tool Dropper
Lifetime Rennlist
Member
Lifetime Rennlist
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Prescott--
Sagging springs and subsequent reduced ride height can make it impossible to maintain rear camber within spec. There isn't enough adjustment range especially with the worn/tired bushings in the upper dogbone link. Verify your ride height is within spec before you panic and start throwing money at the rear suspension.
In the front, the same ride-height problem applies, but it doesn't relate directly to your wear issues. The tire scrub you are experiencing is undoubtedly caused by a some combination of alignment settings. The common cause is incorrect toe setting, toe'd out instead of slightly in as designed. But that usually scrubs the insides of both front tires the same. Instead, a combination of caster and camber settings might be the issue. No good way to tell until the ride height is correct and the whole alignment is checked.
Dan Warner at Exotic, as recommended above, is the go-to guy in the Phoenix area. He will walk through the physical inspection with you, pointing out specifically where parts are worn or damaged enough to need replacement.
----
Our cars are now just barely south of thirty years old now, with thirty year old rubber suspension bits holding the car up. Unless your car has been sitting in a carefully climate-controlled garage all its life, all those rubber bits have been hardening, cracking and delaminating as they age. At this point it's not at all unreasonable to find that there's a recommendation from a pro that those tired or failed parts need replacement. They deal in satisfied customers, and can't afford a cascade-failure claim that would certainly follow any band-aid 'solution' they might otherwise try. You'll likely get the same response from any pro repair place; the numbers will be different from a place that knows our cars better, since you aren't paying for their learning curve. But even Dan at Exotic will point out that tired or failed parts won't safely get you down the road, and those same parts won't keep the front tires pointed in the right direction well enough to avoid the scrubbing.
Most of us are in denial about the wear and deterioration of the suspension bits under the car. Ride and handling deteriorate slowly, until there is a wake-up symptom that shows up like your tire wear. Meanwhile, look around fr testimonials from owners who have driven a very low-mileage car after driving their own higher-mileage car for a few years. The difference truly is night and day. For folks looking at buying a used example, I preach that they should budget at least $5K in rubber parts needed to make the car safe and reliable. That includes hoses and belts, and all the rubber suspension bits. Mark at 928 International opined that the $5k number is somewhat low if everything under car needs replacement, so it's probably a good idea to expect a bigger parts number if everything is going to be replaced. Remember that it's a number for -all- the deteriorated parts including belts and hoses; only part of that budget is for suspension bits. Then labor costs will be additional if you aren't going to DIY.
The Good News is that Dan will inspect those parts with you, and perhaps help you with a priority list of what really needs immediate attention. There's always the caveat that any worn suspension part induces more wear on the other suspension parts, so any 'savings' you might appreciate by staging the work needed could easily be offset over time. Talk to Dan. He's a sraight shooter and knows the cars well.
Sagging springs and subsequent reduced ride height can make it impossible to maintain rear camber within spec. There isn't enough adjustment range especially with the worn/tired bushings in the upper dogbone link. Verify your ride height is within spec before you panic and start throwing money at the rear suspension.
In the front, the same ride-height problem applies, but it doesn't relate directly to your wear issues. The tire scrub you are experiencing is undoubtedly caused by a some combination of alignment settings. The common cause is incorrect toe setting, toe'd out instead of slightly in as designed. But that usually scrubs the insides of both front tires the same. Instead, a combination of caster and camber settings might be the issue. No good way to tell until the ride height is correct and the whole alignment is checked.
Dan Warner at Exotic, as recommended above, is the go-to guy in the Phoenix area. He will walk through the physical inspection with you, pointing out specifically where parts are worn or damaged enough to need replacement.
----
Our cars are now just barely south of thirty years old now, with thirty year old rubber suspension bits holding the car up. Unless your car has been sitting in a carefully climate-controlled garage all its life, all those rubber bits have been hardening, cracking and delaminating as they age. At this point it's not at all unreasonable to find that there's a recommendation from a pro that those tired or failed parts need replacement. They deal in satisfied customers, and can't afford a cascade-failure claim that would certainly follow any band-aid 'solution' they might otherwise try. You'll likely get the same response from any pro repair place; the numbers will be different from a place that knows our cars better, since you aren't paying for their learning curve. But even Dan at Exotic will point out that tired or failed parts won't safely get you down the road, and those same parts won't keep the front tires pointed in the right direction well enough to avoid the scrubbing.
Most of us are in denial about the wear and deterioration of the suspension bits under the car. Ride and handling deteriorate slowly, until there is a wake-up symptom that shows up like your tire wear. Meanwhile, look around fr testimonials from owners who have driven a very low-mileage car after driving their own higher-mileage car for a few years. The difference truly is night and day. For folks looking at buying a used example, I preach that they should budget at least $5K in rubber parts needed to make the car safe and reliable. That includes hoses and belts, and all the rubber suspension bits. Mark at 928 International opined that the $5k number is somewhat low if everything under car needs replacement, so it's probably a good idea to expect a bigger parts number if everything is going to be replaced. Remember that it's a number for -all- the deteriorated parts including belts and hoses; only part of that budget is for suspension bits. Then labor costs will be additional if you aren't going to DIY.
The Good News is that Dan will inspect those parts with you, and perhaps help you with a priority list of what really needs immediate attention. There's always the caveat that any worn suspension part induces more wear on the other suspension parts, so any 'savings' you might appreciate by staging the work needed could easily be offset over time. Talk to Dan. He's a sraight shooter and knows the cars well.
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12-15-2015, 02:05 PM
#8
Three Wheelin'
If the problem is just at that one corner, replacing everything front to back seems very excessive. Granted, new parts are better than used parts but at 67k it shouldn't need everything on that list.
Midas used to be famous for that- "we recommend changing "X" to improve
the car". Their out was always a new part is an improvement over what the car came in with.
Seems like an upsell.
Find a good independent or a shop that just does alignment / suspension work.
Find and fix the problem on that corner unless they can show you further work is necessary.
Also very important to get a proper 4 wheel alignment with the suspension settled- should be lots of articles on the proper way to align it here if you search.
Midas used to be famous for that- "we recommend changing "X" to improve
the car". Their out was always a new part is an improvement over what the car came in with.
Seems like an upsell.
Find a good independent or a shop that just does alignment / suspension work.
Find and fix the problem on that corner unless they can show you further work is necessary.
Also very important to get a proper 4 wheel alignment with the suspension settled- should be lots of articles on the proper way to align it here if you search.
12-15-2015, 02:43 PM
#9
Not the sharpest tool in the shed
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
.... Dan Warner at Exotic, as recommended above, is the go-to guy in the Phoenix area. He will walk through the physical inspection with you, pointing out specifically where parts are worn or damaged enough to need replacement....
.... The Good News is that Dan will inspect those parts with you, and perhaps help you with a priority list of what really needs immediate attention. There's always the caveat that any worn suspension part induces more wear on the other suspension parts, so any 'savings' you might appreciate by staging the work needed could easily be offset over time. Talk to Dan. He's a straight shooter and knows the cars well.
.... The Good News is that Dan will inspect those parts with you, and perhaps help you with a priority list of what really needs immediate attention. There's always the caveat that any worn suspension part induces more wear on the other suspension parts, so any 'savings' you might appreciate by staging the work needed could easily be offset over time. Talk to Dan. He's a straight shooter and knows the cars well.
Dan
12-15-2015, 05:11 PM
#11
Rennlist Member
probably all BS.... i would say, take it to an alignment shop and get it aligned .
Jack up the car an wiggle stuff. post the video here for us to analyse. if there is not excessive movement, there probably is no problem. wear? yes, but do you need to repace everything, no. if the list was a steering rack with too much play or an upper A arm that has a little click in it, i would believe him.
i had a clicking a-arm that was definitely bad (clicking.... moved a tiny bit) on the holbert car. i bought one from Mark to put in, but it never got worse. 5 more years of racing and street driving.. was it bad.. yes, worn, ,did it do anything? NO, absolutely no issues. so the moral of the story is, fix what is not alowing the alignment to be adjusted , reasonably well..... not worth replacing everything. no way!
the reason your tires are bald on the inside after 10k miles is that the alignment shop probably aligned it poorly. (jacked it up and aligned it)
it needs to be settled , totally settled and then NOT LIFTED and then aligned with a hunter machine. that will solve your tire wear issue
also, not true about the saggie springs and inability to do the right camber. LOTS of adjustment there. im at 1.7 degrees up front and easilly can get back to near stock specs (near 1 degree) very easily, the stock adjusters. Im at 108mm front ride height. not even saggie springs can drop a car that much!
Jack up the car an wiggle stuff. post the video here for us to analyse. if there is not excessive movement, there probably is no problem. wear? yes, but do you need to repace everything, no. if the list was a steering rack with too much play or an upper A arm that has a little click in it, i would believe him.
i had a clicking a-arm that was definitely bad (clicking.... moved a tiny bit) on the holbert car. i bought one from Mark to put in, but it never got worse. 5 more years of racing and street driving.. was it bad.. yes, worn, ,did it do anything? NO, absolutely no issues. so the moral of the story is, fix what is not alowing the alignment to be adjusted , reasonably well..... not worth replacing everything. no way!
the reason your tires are bald on the inside after 10k miles is that the alignment shop probably aligned it poorly. (jacked it up and aligned it)
it needs to be settled , totally settled and then NOT LIFTED and then aligned with a hunter machine. that will solve your tire wear issue
also, not true about the saggie springs and inability to do the right camber. LOTS of adjustment there. im at 1.7 degrees up front and easilly can get back to near stock specs (near 1 degree) very easily, the stock adjusters. Im at 108mm front ride height. not even saggie springs can drop a car that much!
12-16-2015, 01:57 PM
#13
Rennlist Member
let me offer you some advice here. odds are, everything is fine. its a VERY safe bet, to spend $100 and take it to wheelworks, or the mass tire shop near you, and get it aligned. you drive it there, after its been driven for 30 plus miles. and watch them NOT jack it up in anyway. drive right on the hunter machine and do a 4 wheel spec alignment. 85% sure, you will be done and the new tires you put on the front will last for 30-50k miles. (and it will continue to drive and not pull, wheel centered for the next 4 years!)
trust me on this one.
trust me on this one.
