Shawn908

1987 928 S4 5 spd. The timing belt was changed at about 90k miles - about 12 years ago. Car currently has approx. 115k miles (odometer non-functional).
Assuming odometer broke last week, if purchased am I correct that a new timing belt, water pump, tensioner + tensioner boot, clamp, gasket etc installation would be required?
Or, would it be assumed fine for another 10k miles (i.e. 35k miles interval)?

Car is very nice, well taken care of, and sparingly driven. I am thinking of a PPI: there was a fair amount of rattle from the vicinity of the shifter. Everything shifted well but it was noisy and moving the gear lever around could abate some of the rattle.

Thanks for any feedback on the timing belt change Q.

RennPartsDirect

I'd personally check the registration history to get an idea about the actual mileage. You'd be better off playing it safe and replacing the belt along with other rubber fuel related hoses and such if you do end up purchasing it...

MainePorsche

I've purchased two 928's in my history.
Didn't care what was said about their history - I serviced them both when I got them. Good thing I did on one of them.
Service it so you know what you have, and when it was really done up to snuff.

worf928

Yes. You are correct that a belt service is required.

If you don't know exactly what was done at the last belt service and - this is important - by whom it was done, then it is time for all the parts you list. It may also be time for a full set of gears (the gears that the belt touches.)

GregBBRD

At the very least, the timing belt needs to be looked at.

Most all questions about the belt are answered once the cover is off and one can see the belt.

However, you can be about 90% certain that it will need a belt and a complete set of gears.

wpgshark

The belt is just one part of the equation and as many have said probably the least likely to fail.

As Greg says you're going to have to open it up to see what you have. I say once you've opened it up you might as well renew it.

Check that the cam gears are not worn, check that the oil pump gear doesn't have micro stress cracks, check that seals on the front are tight and that all the rollers roll. Check that it is properly timed.

My 88 which had had timing service done, and had a new belt and pump the year before I bought it, roughly same mileage, had all of the above "other issues".

No better way to start enjoying the experience than tearing into a TB and WP.

Good luck.

Lance

rnixon

Would you drive on 12 year old tyres? The belt rubber deteriorates with age, just like the fuel hoses. Without evidence, I wouldn't believe that the odometer broke recently either. Given the cost of a broken belt etc, it would, IMO, be a false economy not to do the TB, WP, gears and tensioner before driving the car.

There's also the fuel hoses to do, if they haven't been (which would also be a sign of a seller that isn't that au fait with these cars).

Shawn908

To all - thanks for the feedback to my question.
I've confirmed with the owner & his mechanic no TB etc work over last 12 years.
Follow up question: would it be gauche in the community to build the cost of the work into the offer? He's asking 17.5. It's an original car and not evidently abused.

I've read here via searching that fixing "everything" TB/WP related would be $3-$4 at a reputable/expert shop. Notwithstanding the rattle in the shifter box and some oil observed on upper surface of engine (below intakes) could also need addressing. Plus brakes done 20k miles ago.

One has to have both eyes open and I've bought stupid before by squinting to see the best whilst ignoring the obvious. Trying to avoid buying on lust alone, albeit that is obviously a critical part of the equation...

Sent from my iPhone using Rennlist

hlee96

Depending on the location of the car, find a reputable 928 expert in the area and ask the seller to allow you to take the car for a PPI (you will be paying for it of course). $17,500 for a 115k mile car (likely more miles) without any recent major servicing is asking alot, even if the interior/exterior is nice or pristine or a 5 spd.

Have you purchased an Autocheck or Carfax account yet? They are

hlee96

Loss the bottom part of the message:

The carfax-autocheck accounts are worth the money b/c it does search for things the buyers would not volunteer and one service may recover things that the other one missed (quite frequent).

My '78 5 spd is on the lift with the clutches and engines out, and my '89 S4 auto is driveable. You are welcome to check out the cars since taking the time to look at different cars would give you a better idea in what to look for when inspecting a potential purchase without having the PO's eyes on your back. Details details details...

Having so recently joined the forum and enjoying these cars, there are still things I wish I would have paid more attention to when I bought my 928's. Don't be shy about asking questions, and let me know if I can be of any help.

jcorenman

Shawn,

The advantage of having someone experienced with 928's do the work is that not "everything" needs to be replaced all the time. But it takes some experience to know what is good, and what should be replaced. This can make a big difference in the cost. A TB/WP job is in the 8-10 hour range, the rest is parts.

If you haven't yet, try contacting Stan (Mrmerlin here), he is very experienced and I believe now lives in the Philly area. If the car is local then having him take a look at it would be a great help.

The shifter rattle is likely a missing/broken nylon bushing. There are two bushings at the bottom of the shift lever itself, accessible from under the boot, and a ball-cup bushing under the tunnel, accessible from beneath with some difficulty. (There is also a rubber bush under there). I would not let this go: If it is a broken/worn ball-cup bushing then the shift linkage can come loose at the front, which means you can't shift. That is rare but does happen, and is reported to be "annoying".

Prices on these cars are all over the map, but mostly depend on condition and what is needed. For $17K I would expect a very nice car with no big issues, and no immediate service needed. So certainly I think there is room to negotiate, and a 12-year-old timing belt and TMU (total miles unknown) are significant.

FredR

Shawn,

If you purchase this vehicle I personally would not drive it one mile until the belt was changed. Belt failure on these motors is catastrophic as valves and pistons will come into contact if the belt fails. That being said the usage profile needs to be factored in given the rubber of the belt needs to flex to maintain its resilience. If used regularly but on short runs- this is not good for the engine but would keep the belt rubber flexible. No one can tell you the belt will fail for sure but it is simply a question of risk mitigation. My personal recommendation for timing belts is 6 years or 60k miles which ever comes first and in my case it is invariably time unless of course a water pump fails [has happened twice in 16 years of ownership] and then I do the pump and timing belt plus whatever else I feel needs to be attended to.

There are plenty of other check items some of which will doubtless need to be replaced or at least considered for such but the timing belt is the one you really do not want to fail in service. If the water pump has not done too many miles you can consider reusing that but again it is a risk related issue requiring a cost benefit analysis - if you can do the job yourself it may be worth it but if you are paying someone $100/hr to do it another matter altogether.

There are plenty of "what to look for" lists and for a new acquisition you will get plenty of different opinions as to how far to go with this.Bottom line the usual "offenders" can easily swallow US$1k when considering fuel pumps, ignition leads, rotorcaps/arms, fuel pressure regulatators/dampers etc etc not to mention water pumps running at $500 these days.

Please do not be put off by this- just a fact of life in the 928 ownership club and wise purchasers allow for this type of unknown [I personally recommend new owners to allow for at least US$2k in deferred maintenance parts plus labout to fit them] - remember you are talking about an exclusive 28 year old vehicle and logic suggests that if the timing belt and water pump have not been touched for 12 years then chances are not much else has. The list of possibilities is extensive but chances are that only a percentage will need immediate attention and selecting the right ones is the trick bit. Thus as Jim says if you have access locally to a knowledgeable owner that is willing to help you that would be a very good start.

Good luck and kindest regards

Fred

dr bob

You came to the right place. This is probably the most knowledgeable and supporting auto forum I've ever been exposed to. The advice shared so far is spot-on. I aso recommend that you spend a bit of time reading the 'new usres' thread from start to finish, as there's a wealth of knowledge and experience shared in that thread.

---

As you look at the cars, remember that most cars are sold undermaintained. Selling is a graceful method of transferring the needed maintenance tasks on to a new owner.

That said, your car needs to have a known history of replacement of the rubber bits, including the belts (all of them), plus hoses (all of them, including pwer steering, coolant, transmission fluid, and most important -- fuel and brake hoses. The crankcase vent hoses and the intake air hoses under the intake need to be replaced too. I used to recommend a budget of $5k just for the parts for these things, but some of the costs are higher and probably need some adjustment.

The expectation on a purchased car includes some relationship with other cars in the market, and a wild assumption that those other cars are somewhere around 50% life remaining on the rubber and other wear bits. eg: 50% tire tread left, 50% tire life left (calendar chack, expecting 5-year practical life even on a non-driven car), at least half of the expected 50k or ten years life on belts and coolant hoses. Brake hoses and fuel hoses are typically good for 100k or 20 years, both of which your subject has exceeded. Any offer you make should consider those factors relative to other cars in the market, and also to your total first-year budget. The better 5-speed cars are certainly worth a bit of a premium due to rarity, but add in some factors like the loose shift ball cup you discovered, the rear shifter coupling, plus the clutch and the release parts under and in the car.

Get a PPI. You are fortunate to live near a great 928 guy, Stan, (RL: mrmerlin) who can do a full PPI, and also help you with things that need to be done. Either with advice and support if you do it, or take care of it for you. Competent 928-specific PPI is money very well spent. You have an impartial expert helping you manage expectations on your purchase. Minimizes surprises.


Good luck with your decision. There's a full spectrum of owner experiences here, from blind purcahes that turned out well (including mine) through rescues and projects, and on to nightmares that never cease. Take advantage of the local support and help available, and make the best informed purcghase decision you can.

Randy V

Not at all. This is exactly why we recommend every sale have a PPI performed prior by a 928-centric mechanic.

Use that detailed report to negotiate the final sale price.

prescott

You can get a well sorted, running, cosmetically good 928 for $17k found on this forum on rennlist classifieds. Don't overspend on a basket case.

PPI is a must. If you buy it, I bet you will buy it for $5k (after the seller sees all the things that need to be fixed). My 928 needed $13k in work over 2 years, and it was a barn find that the seller said was "pristine" and "needs nothing".

Good Luck!