Filling tensioner hell! (With STP - HP)
04-27-2015, 05:24 AM
#1
Drifting
Thread Starter
Filling tensioner hell! (With STP - HP)
I went from 928 hero to zero yesterday.
Was really pleased at installing new belt and gears, and at correct tension at TDC I was at LHS -2, RHS +3. Should be easy to correct with 32vR.
So I set about refilling tensioner, which turned into the most frustrating couple of hours I've had working on the car. Had STP as per MrMerlin's advice. That stuff is oily treacle! Found small plastic bottle (about 100ml) with nozzle. Widened nozzle and tried to squirt directly into fill hole with bleeder removed, but it didn't want to flow even with encouraging squeezes.
So I re-installed bleeder and filled syringe with 60ml of STP, pushed tube over fill bleeder, and was able to push in stringe-full by keeping slight pressure on plunger. But it was very slow going (think it took an hour or more to get 60ml in. It wasn't all 60 as towards end the tube was coming off end of syringe and then kept coming off the greasy end, with the odd gloop of STP going on floor or part of car (at least nothing on timing belt) or my gloves.
I had another syringe with nozzle that fit fill hole. I thought tensioner took about 100ml oil, so filled that with another 40ml of STP, took off fill bleeder and poked syringe into hole. Couldn't get much in before it was coming back out of fill hole and - worryingly - out of tensioner boot where push pin fits into hollow tube! Absolutely nothing came out of the discharge hole (bleeder removed) at any point.
So now I'm concerned that:
- the tensioner is not full (nothing from bleed hole)
- I have blown off inner clamp
Is it possible for oil to come out of front of tensioner boot without having blown the clamp? If so why does it emerge there instead of coming out bleed hole? Before I installed tensioner I checked bleed holes were clear, so I'm puzzled why nothing came out of the bleed port.
Next time I think I'll use thinner engine or gear oil, or fit a Porkensioner.
Going back into garage now and hope I don't find pile of gloop under leaking tensioner...
Was really pleased at installing new belt and gears, and at correct tension at TDC I was at LHS -2, RHS +3. Should be easy to correct with 32vR.
So I set about refilling tensioner, which turned into the most frustrating couple of hours I've had working on the car. Had STP as per MrMerlin's advice. That stuff is oily treacle! Found small plastic bottle (about 100ml) with nozzle. Widened nozzle and tried to squirt directly into fill hole with bleeder removed, but it didn't want to flow even with encouraging squeezes.
So I re-installed bleeder and filled syringe with 60ml of STP, pushed tube over fill bleeder, and was able to push in stringe-full by keeping slight pressure on plunger. But it was very slow going (think it took an hour or more to get 60ml in. It wasn't all 60 as towards end the tube was coming off end of syringe and then kept coming off the greasy end, with the odd gloop of STP going on floor or part of car (at least nothing on timing belt) or my gloves.
I had another syringe with nozzle that fit fill hole. I thought tensioner took about 100ml oil, so filled that with another 40ml of STP, took off fill bleeder and poked syringe into hole. Couldn't get much in before it was coming back out of fill hole and - worryingly - out of tensioner boot where push pin fits into hollow tube! Absolutely nothing came out of the discharge hole (bleeder removed) at any point.
So now I'm concerned that:
- the tensioner is not full (nothing from bleed hole)
- I have blown off inner clamp
Is it possible for oil to come out of front of tensioner boot without having blown the clamp? If so why does it emerge there instead of coming out bleed hole? Before I installed tensioner I checked bleed holes were clear, so I'm puzzled why nothing came out of the bleed port.
Next time I think I'll use thinner engine or gear oil, or fit a Porkensioner.
Going back into garage now and hope I don't find pile of gloop under leaking tensioner...
Last edited by StratfordShark; 04-27-2015 at 06:05 AM.
04-27-2015, 06:08 AM
#2
Rennlist Member
Adrian,
Like I said earlier it is a sod of a job to fill with STP - takes a lot of patience, time and invariably some mess. I doubt you could do anything that would cause it to come out of the inner seal and trust you positioned the seal so that the closure point on the clamp is at the 12.00 position.
I am a little puzzled at some of the terms you use- i.e "spring". The tensioner has two "nipples"- the left hand one being the fill nipple and the right hand one the level check nipple [trust my memory is correct]. The orifice in these nipples is very small. You should be able to see the oil emanate from the level check nipple and if you do like I did- remove the level nipple altogether until something starts to come out- this should help you understand when filling is near completion. When this happens I put the nipple back on with a little sleeve of clear plastic tubing, left it open by a turn or so to permit flow and sure enough shortly afterwards some STP eventually came out- game set and match!
If goo is coming out of the cap boot did you clean and carefully check the condition of the thing to ensure there were no cracks in it and that it was nice and pliable [i.e. reusable] or did you fit a new end boot?
Regards
Fred
Like I said earlier it is a sod of a job to fill with STP - takes a lot of patience, time and invariably some mess. I doubt you could do anything that would cause it to come out of the inner seal and trust you positioned the seal so that the closure point on the clamp is at the 12.00 position.
I am a little puzzled at some of the terms you use- i.e "spring". The tensioner has two "nipples"- the left hand one being the fill nipple and the right hand one the level check nipple [trust my memory is correct]. The orifice in these nipples is very small. You should be able to see the oil emanate from the level check nipple and if you do like I did- remove the level nipple altogether until something starts to come out- this should help you understand when filling is near completion. When this happens I put the nipple back on with a little sleeve of clear plastic tubing, left it open by a turn or so to permit flow and sure enough shortly afterwards some STP eventually came out- game set and match!
If goo is coming out of the cap boot did you clean and carefully check the condition of the thing to ensure there were no cracks in it and that it was nice and pliable [i.e. reusable] or did you fit a new end boot?
Regards
Fred
04-27-2015, 06:25 AM
#3
Drifting
Thread Starter
Hi Fred
Thanks very much for advice.
Sorry "spring" was auto-correct and when I spotted later changed to "syringe"!
Yes I fitted brand new boot, though the old one was still perfect (no cracks, very supple) but I'd ordered parts by then.
I did have the discharge nipple (right hand one nearer block) fully removed when I was looking for oil coming out but not a drop. I understand that orifice can be blocked by tensioner piston, but not when the tensioner has been tightened like mine has.
Yes I managed to do something right and positioned that inner seal at 12 o'clock, so max sealing force at bottom.
Best
Adrian
Thanks very much for advice.
Sorry "spring" was auto-correct and when I spotted later changed to "syringe"!
Yes I fitted brand new boot, though the old one was still perfect (no cracks, very supple) but I'd ordered parts by then.
I did have the discharge nipple (right hand one nearer block) fully removed when I was looking for oil coming out but not a drop. I understand that orifice can be blocked by tensioner piston, but not when the tensioner has been tightened like mine has.
Yes I managed to do something right and positioned that inner seal at 12 o'clock, so max sealing force at bottom.
Best
Adrian
04-27-2015, 07:02 AM
#4
Rennlist Member
Hi Fred
Thanks very much for advice.
Sorry "spring" was auto-correct and when I spotted later changed to "syringe"!
Yes I fitted brand new boot, though the old one was still perfect (no cracks, very supple) but I'd ordered parts by then.
I did have the discharge nipple (right hand one nearer block) fully removed when I was looking for oil coming out but not a drop. I understand that orifice can be blocked by tensioner piston, but not when the tensioner has been tightened like mine has.
Yes I managed to do something right and positioned that inner seal at 12 o'clock, so max sealing force at bottom.
Best
Adrian
Thanks very much for advice.
Sorry "spring" was auto-correct and when I spotted later changed to "syringe"!
Yes I fitted brand new boot, though the old one was still perfect (no cracks, very supple) but I'd ordered parts by then.
I did have the discharge nipple (right hand one nearer block) fully removed when I was looking for oil coming out but not a drop. I understand that orifice can be blocked by tensioner piston, but not when the tensioner has been tightened like mine has.
Yes I managed to do something right and positioned that inner seal at 12 o'clock, so max sealing force at bottom.
Best
Adrian
Hopefully others will have more constructive suggestions. Unfortunately the area behind the tensioner tends to be very grimy to start with.
Regards
Fred
04-27-2015, 07:34 AM
#5
Drifting
Thread Starter
Yes one bolt goes through oil galley and I used thread sealant on that. It was pretty clean behind tensioner as the old install had no leaks, at least till I removed tensioner and it dumped on floor! Should have left it in retrospect but I wanted the practice of rebuilding.
I installed gasket dry - it does have bead of factory adhesive on it in pattern of tensioner oil galley. I really hope I'm not leaking on the rear mounting! Though enough oil was obviously able to enter tensioner via check valve at bolt end and then fill enough to come out at boot end. I'll take a look.
I installed gasket dry - it does have bead of factory adhesive on it in pattern of tensioner oil galley. I really hope I'm not leaking on the rear mounting! Though enough oil was obviously able to enter tensioner via check valve at bolt end and then fill enough to come out at boot end. I'll take a look.
04-27-2015, 09:01 AM
#6
Administrator - "Tyson"
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Why STP? I must have missed past threads / posts talking about this. Not questioning, just curious the thought process behind it.
One way to speed up the flow of such a thick fluid is heat up a pot of water and place the bottle in the water to warm up the fluid. I've done this with gear oil.
One way to speed up the flow of such a thick fluid is heat up a pot of water and place the bottle in the water to warm up the fluid. I've done this with gear oil.
04-27-2015, 09:19 AM
#7
Rennlist Member
Yes one bolt goes through oil galley and I used thread sealant on that. It was pretty clean behind tensioner as the old install had no leaks, at least till I removed tensioner and it dumped on floor! Should have left it in retrospect but I wanted the practice of rebuilding.
I installed gasket dry - it does have bead of factory adhesive on it in pattern of tensioner oil galley. I really hope I'm not leaking on the rear mounting! Though enough oil was obviously able to enter tensioner via check valve at bolt end and then fill enough to come out at boot end. I'll take a look.
I installed gasket dry - it does have bead of factory adhesive on it in pattern of tensioner oil galley. I really hope I'm not leaking on the rear mounting! Though enough oil was obviously able to enter tensioner via check valve at bolt end and then fill enough to come out at boot end. I'll take a look.
If it helps I have a spare tensioner upstairs, I could try to fathom out what volume of liquid is required to fill it.
I am pretty sure you have not goofed on this one.
Rgds
Fred
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04-27-2015, 09:33 AM
#8
Team Owner
Eric I have been using and suggest to use the STP for refilling the tensioners,
this due to the fact that they all will leak at some point during the service life,
I have found that that using thinner oils make the leak start sooner,
the STP takes longer to leak out since its a thicker oil.
NOTE I also suggest to Hondabond 4 on the tensioner gasket,
this to increase the sealing service life of the gasket before it begins leaking.
To refill the tensioner remove both bleeders,
put the tip of the bottle into the hole thats furthest from the crank,
put some paper towels under both holes,
when you see fluid bubbling out the hole closest to the crank then it is full.
Gently squeeze the bottle, the oil will flow into the tensioner ,
it will hold about 1.5 OZ or less, using the small bottle of visene this equates to 2.5 bottle refills
I have done more than a few belt swaps,
and they seem to stay dry way longer,
than the ones that have not had these precautions done.
YMMV.
OP if you see oil coming from the boot then,
either the inner clamping ring has been dislodged or incorrectly positioned,
or the outer clamp isnt tight enough.
That said the reason I suggest to use the Visene bottle is so you dont blow the inner clamp off the boot.
The small bottle will not let you develop a lot of pressure.
Yes I did use the hand pump method using engine oil,
and yes I did blow the ring off the inner boot .
Yes I had to take the whole thing apart and refit the ring.
That said this is why I offer up info like this so others wont have the same issues arise.
As this isnt a job most owners will do many times,
thus they wont have much experience to see what works for them.
this due to the fact that they all will leak at some point during the service life,
I have found that that using thinner oils make the leak start sooner,
the STP takes longer to leak out since its a thicker oil.
NOTE I also suggest to Hondabond 4 on the tensioner gasket,
this to increase the sealing service life of the gasket before it begins leaking.
To refill the tensioner remove both bleeders,
put the tip of the bottle into the hole thats furthest from the crank,
put some paper towels under both holes,
when you see fluid bubbling out the hole closest to the crank then it is full.
Gently squeeze the bottle, the oil will flow into the tensioner ,
it will hold about 1.5 OZ or less, using the small bottle of visene this equates to 2.5 bottle refills
I have done more than a few belt swaps,
and they seem to stay dry way longer,
than the ones that have not had these precautions done.
YMMV.
OP if you see oil coming from the boot then,
either the inner clamping ring has been dislodged or incorrectly positioned,
or the outer clamp isnt tight enough.
That said the reason I suggest to use the Visene bottle is so you dont blow the inner clamp off the boot.
The small bottle will not let you develop a lot of pressure.
Yes I did use the hand pump method using engine oil,
and yes I did blow the ring off the inner boot .
Yes I had to take the whole thing apart and refit the ring.
That said this is why I offer up info like this so others wont have the same issues arise.
As this isnt a job most owners will do many times,
thus they wont have much experience to see what works for them.
04-27-2015, 09:59 AM
#9
Administrator - "Tyson"
Lifetime Rennlist
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04-27-2015, 10:10 AM
#10
Drifting
Thread Starter
Thanks Fred that would be useful, but I have seen references in past posts to around 3 fl oz. If oil has roughly same density as water that would be about 85mL. I'm not sure how you would measure as you need to take account of the volume in the oil galleys where the gasket mates!
04-27-2015, 10:25 AM
#11
Drifting
Thread Starter
Eric I have been using and suggest to use the STP for refilling the tensioners,
this due to the fact that they all will leak at some point during the service life,
I have found that that using thinner oils make the leak start sooner,
the STP takes longer to leak out since its a thicker oil.
NOTE I also suggest to Hondabond 4 on the tensioner gasket,
this to increase the sealing service life of the gasket before it begins leaking.
To refill the tensioner remove both bleeders,
put the tip of the bottle into the hole thats furthest from the crank,
put some paper towels under both holes,
when you see fluid bubbling out the hole closest to the crank then it is full.
Gently squeeze the bottle, the oil will flow into the tensioner ,
it will hold about 1.5 OZ or less, using the small bottle of visene this equates to 2.5 bottle refills
I have done more than a few belt swaps,
and they seem to stay dry way longer,
than the ones that have not had these precautions done.
YMMV.
OP if you see oil coming from the boot then,
either the inner clamping ring has been dislodged or incorrectly positioned,
or the outer clamp isnt tight enough.
That said the reason I suggest to use the Visene bottle is so you dont blow the inner clamp off the boot.
The small bottle will not let you develop a lot of pressure.
Yes I did use the hand pump method using engine oil,
and yes I did blow the ring off the inner boot .
Yes I had to take the whole thing apart and refit the ring.
That said this is why I offer up info like this so others wont have the same issues arise.
As this isnt a job most owners will do many times,
thus they wont have much experience to see what works for them.
this due to the fact that they all will leak at some point during the service life,
I have found that that using thinner oils make the leak start sooner,
the STP takes longer to leak out since its a thicker oil.
NOTE I also suggest to Hondabond 4 on the tensioner gasket,
this to increase the sealing service life of the gasket before it begins leaking.
To refill the tensioner remove both bleeders,
put the tip of the bottle into the hole thats furthest from the crank,
put some paper towels under both holes,
when you see fluid bubbling out the hole closest to the crank then it is full.
Gently squeeze the bottle, the oil will flow into the tensioner ,
it will hold about 1.5 OZ or less, using the small bottle of visene this equates to 2.5 bottle refills
I have done more than a few belt swaps,
and they seem to stay dry way longer,
than the ones that have not had these precautions done.
YMMV.
OP if you see oil coming from the boot then,
either the inner clamping ring has been dislodged or incorrectly positioned,
or the outer clamp isnt tight enough.
That said the reason I suggest to use the Visene bottle is so you dont blow the inner clamp off the boot.
The small bottle will not let you develop a lot of pressure.
Yes I did use the hand pump method using engine oil,
and yes I did blow the ring off the inner boot .
Yes I had to take the whole thing apart and refit the ring.
That said this is why I offer up info like this so others wont have the same issues arise.
As this isnt a job most owners will do many times,
thus they wont have much experience to see what works for them.
1.5oz is half what I thought the tensioner held! Sounds like I may have blown off the inner clamp as I got about 50mL in which is a little over 1.5oz (=43mL using water density). Your 2.5 small bottles = 38mL so less than 1.5oz. There was leakage from boot but I had clamped it using the correct hose clamps, and positioned the inner ring at 12 o'clock as you look directly at boot. I don't have centre cover on yet so I may be able to put some more tension on the outer clamp, or the tensioner arm may now be too much in the way. Still puzzled why I never got any oil out of the discharge hole even with bleeder removed. If it had flowed out there than it would have prevented me blowing inner clamp if that is what I've managed to do.
04-27-2015, 02:28 PM
#12
Drifting
Thread Starter
I've been working on car all day and it stood overnight. No oil drips from nose of tensioner in that time or from gasket. If I take out the fill bleeder then oil will ooze from there which suggests oil has remained in and it's full. I've replaced the bleeders with a little thread sealant.
I still have no idea why I'm not getting any oil out of bleeder!
I still have no idea why I'm not getting any oil out of bleeder!
04-27-2015, 02:54 PM
#13
Rennlist Member
those passages inside are pretty small, if you really want to use STP, I'd suggest you heat it up first 
Also don't be surprised to see some oil blooping out after the first time you run her up to speed.
Also don't be surprised to see some oil blooping out after the first time you run her up to speed.
04-27-2015, 03:05 PM
#14
Rennlist Member
Would a heat gun to warm up the body of the tensioner help it flow within the tensioner..and fill it out quicker/easier?
Not a ton of heat of course..but within the range of normal engine operating temp?
Then once it is full, and cools, top it off from cool contraction/volume?
Not a ton of heat of course..but within the range of normal engine operating temp?
Then once it is full, and cools, top it off from cool contraction/volume?
04-27-2015, 05:21 PM
#15
Rennlist Member
Adrian,
Considering all you have done I would be inclined to consider just boxing it up and call it quits now before you do more harm than good.
Remember the tensioner is a bit quirky and works to a large extent with no oil in it whatsoever- the oil being to help compensate for different temperature conditions [as I understand].
Regards
Fred
Considering all you have done I would be inclined to consider just boxing it up and call it quits now before you do more harm than good.
Remember the tensioner is a bit quirky and works to a large extent with no oil in it whatsoever- the oil being to help compensate for different temperature conditions [as I understand].
Regards
Fred