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My injectors came back from Witchunter with the N-020-281-1 hose attached using oetiker clamps. I did not like how tightly the clamp was applied (1st pic), as it looked to compromise the hose. I removed the clamped hoses, and installed new N-020-281-1 hose using the factory ferrules and no clamps (2nd pic). As I recall, the injectors and rails have barbs (not a flat surface with a bulb at the end).
When installing the hose, it is important to use lube (I used glycerin), and push them straight on - twisting them on will cut the hose. I think the real concern is that the clamp will apply too much pressure and risk the barbs cutting the hose. With the correct push fit, the hose conforms to the shape of the barbs, effectively forming a one-way fit. I'm comfortable with that theory.
My car had original injector hoses, and if I recall, they had some sort of fabric-like outer layer. I now wish I hadn't tossed them.
Simon - I think you answered your own question.
This is my personal thinking and in no way at odds with GB. On my early cars with rubber injector lines I use Gates Barricade hose because it is more compatible with the **** in the gas these days unlike the old spec EFI hose. I use 5/16" with EFI clamps as I like the double redundancy. Apart from the old technology EFI hose I find the 7mm way to tight on the barbs. I am also very capable of checking them on a regular basis and tightening the clamps as needed. You make your own mind up.
Buy from Porsche and you get old technology EFI hose and EFI clamps to go with the hats. Cheaper to buy the 7mm EFI hose and add EFI clamps and reuse the hats.
Use what you feel comfortable with.
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Does it have the "Do It Yourself" manual transmission, or the superior "Fully Equipped by Porsche" Automatic Transmission? George Layton March 2014
928 Owners are ".....a secret sect of quietly assured Porsche pragmatists who in near anonymity appreciate the prodigious, easy going prowess of the 928."
I enjoyed the post about why would Porsche use something besides rubber hose with clamps or crimps, if that stuff worked. The people that owned 3.2 liter Carrera engine can tell you all about "rubber hose and crimps". Many, many of those vehicles burned from that idea!
Roger researches virtually everything he can research, whenever there is any "issue". He's certainly one of the most "moral" people I've ever met, in the parts business....he "cares" about what he sells! So when I told him that Gates said to not put their rubber hose onto barbs made originally made for plastic hose, he actually went beyond their literature and asked on a corporate level if this was true. And then when they said "absolutely not", he contacted other companies, searching for an alternative hose for his customers. NONE said that putting their rubber hose onto barbs made for plastic hose was allowable.
People are welcome to do whatever they want and do things I can't believe on a daily basis.
Here's the simplest way i can put this....you can trust the engineers that design and make probably 95% of the world's supply of rubber hose or you can trust that Carl says this is a great repair.
You choose.
To be completely honest, in an emergency, I'd use a high quality rubber hose and clamps....exactly like Carl is promoting, but I'd change that hose as soon as I got out of the middle of the Sahara!
As far as the fuel rails on the early cars with the barbs, here's a quick experiment for people to do. Install a piece of N020 281 1 rubber hose....and then try to pull it back off. I can't pull it off....and I'm a far cry from "whimpy".
Then do that same experiment with a Gates hose or any other "NAPA" hose. These hoses will fall off these barbs! Simple experiments answer many questions....
Now....how to secure the hose? Clamps, original "hats", or nothing at all? Keep in mind that these hoses are secured, in compression, between the injector and the fuel rail and the odds of these hoses "popping" off are almost zero...and we just did the experiment that the N020 281 1 hose isn't going to come off (nor likely leak, if it is that hard to remove.)
However, to be absolutely secure, I use a clamp on the injector end and suggest that people use the original Porsche "hat" on the fuel rail side.
However, those little "hats" are now over $7.00 each, from Porsche, and it is pretty difficult to convince early car owners that a $7.00 "hat" is 1000% better than a $.75 clamp. Therefore, when I sell these pieces I include 8 clamps and tell people to be "very conservative" when tightening those clamps onto the rail hoses. Literally, the clamps need to be just past the point not rotating to do the "extra safety" portion of this job (remembering that only "Mongo" can pull the bare hose off of the rail, anyway!)
As already stated in a number of posts - EFI hose (be it Wurth, Contitech, Gates, CRP or other manufactures) should NEVER be used with barbed fittings. Gates in particular state it very clearly on their literature.
Ok BUT as far as I know, none of your kits ever caused a fire. How come the predictions don't match what is happening in the real World? I've been running an EFI hose with EFI clamps on my boosted 928 that uses an FMU. An FMU that makes the fuel pressure go near 100psi at full boost. If that didn't make the hose fail on the bard fitting then what will?
Don't forget that Porsche designed the 928 to go 200,000 miles without needing a rebuild. As has been said, it was their cost-is-not-an-option flagship product. I dont know how many years that is, but we are discussing this at 30 years on many of these cars and the OEM hoses (although no longer available) are still in the field and working. So pretty damn good.
Now - faced with hoses you cannot get, you have options. One option is to use a quality EFI hose and an Oetiker clamp and take the responsibility to replace them every 5-10 years, This is a good and effective repair. But will it likely last 200,000 miles and 30 years? Not with todays fuel cocktails it wont.
But I KNOW that, and will act accordingly. It gets my 928 out of the garage and down the road safely so I can enjoy it. Just be aware of the change, and like I said, act accordingly. I have 6 years on these fuel lines and clamps on my own 1991 928 GT and no problem. No leaks. No issues. I do inspect them as a regular part of service - every oil change the fuel lines and clamps get a close looksee. No issues yet.
Don't forget that Porsche designed the 928 to go 200,000 miles without needing a rebuild. As has been said, it was their cost-is-not-an-option flagship product. I dont know how many years that is, but we are discussing this at 30 years on many of these cars and the OEM hoses (although no longer available) are still in the field and working. So pretty damn good.
Now - faced with hoses you cannot get, you have options. One option is to use a quality EFI hose and an Oetiker clamp and take the responsibility to replace them every 5-10 years, This is a good and effective repair. But will it likely last 200,000 miles and 30 years? Not with todays fuel cocktails it wont.
But I KNOW that, and will act accordingly. It gets my 928 out of the garage and down the road safely so I can enjoy it. Just be aware of the change, and like I said, act accordingly. I have 6 years on these fuel lines and clamps on my own 1991 928 GT and no problem. No leaks. No issues. I do inspect them as a regular part of service - every oil change the fuel lines and clamps get a close looksee. No issues yet.
People are free to do whatever they want...and do the most incredible things!
There's probably someone using clear plastic aquarium hose retained with rusty bailing wire sitting out there, reading this and wondering what all the fuss is about...
I'm just passing on the information that the hose manufacturers state. I figure they know their own product better than I do....and in this world of litigation, my insurance carrier would drop me like a rock, if I ignored what the people that make the hose recommend.
My customers are not mechanics. They don't want to worry or fuss with fuel lines. They dont want to expose themselves or their families to any increased chance of fire.
I make replacement fuel lines that are better than the originals....made from the best materials I can find on this planet. Billet German direct fit metric ends crimped onto PTFE lined hose. Lifetime guarantee....install and forget....forever.
Yes, they are way more expensive than rubber hose and clamps....but just like the vehicles they go onto, perfection costs more.
Very early in my career a pretty famous Porsche guy (Dennis Aase) told me something that has been one of my most basic thoughts about how I conduct my business practices:
"When you are sitting in front of a jury (and a jury includes God), no one will remember or care how much money you saved the injured party. The only thing they will want to know is if what you sold or did was not only proper for the application, but also the very best possible solution."
I've been able to locate two of the three lines under the hood of my 1985 928 S3 through 928 Intl., OEM lines, but can't locate the third line, apparently NLA? I believe the line running down the passenger side (the 3rd line) is strait rather than formed like the front and rear lines I've been able to locate.
Does anyone know the exact specs and perhaps a supplier for the correct type of line to use with my existing barb fittings? I understand that would be a plastic (maybe PTFE) rubber coated line with a specific ID? I'd like to order the parts in advance and the car is about 200 miles away from me so I can't take measurements.
I've been able to locate two of the three lines under the hood of my 1985 928 S3 through 928 Intl., OEM lines, but can't locate the third line, apparently NLA? I believe the line running down the passenger side (the 3rd line) is strait rather than formed like the front and rear lines I've been able to locate.
Does anyone know the exact specs and perhaps a supplier for the correct type of line to use with my existing barb fittings? I understand that would be a plastic (maybe PTFE) rubber coated line with a specific ID? I'd like to order the parts in advance and the car is about 200 miles away from me so I can't take measurements.
I should have mentioned I'm one of those original owners. This is a concourse quality car I'm maintaining as close to stock as possible, but I've decided I'd like to use PorKen's S300 fuel map on it. I'm upgrading the FPR to 1987 spec and need to replace the fuel lines before doing that. So it's not exactly going to be stock, but I'd like to keep it as close as possible?
Scott - Roger will have that stock line. He's on vacation right now, but will be back in a week I think. The folks at his shop may be able to help. If Sean is checking in, he can tell you the correct hose that you are looking for.
04-21-2015, 05:24 PM
George Layton March 2014
