IcemanG17

Okay....I posted the lower post in one of the many blown up race 928 engine posts....Kibort never blows up a 928 engine...so I thought lets make it a challenge using scientific theory...if nobody can replicate your results...what does that make your results??

But being the nice guy that I am...you still must respect Kiborts success on well know 928-944 killer tracks...yes the fairy dust counts for something, but this is about data....pure on track time vs engine destruction....

My hypothesis is this.....any race 928 has a limited lifespan in terms of hours on track unless its a dry sump...even that has restrictions... Yes I am gonna say it....why does Kiborts engines live...LACK OF TRACK TIME....I will admit this isn't a bad thing...but a typical race weekend is a practice-qualifying-race per day....our MK doesn't run practice...and only runs all out a few laps in qual (in can understand that)...then runs the race....so we are talking about maybe 40 minutes per day on track...so a full season of 12 races is 8 hours on track per year....keep in mind Casper blew up at 27.5 hours on track...so that would be 3.5 years "racing".....but I need to test-develop my racer, so I am not content with just racing....I need an engine that can survive for many hours on track, racing or testing...its the same pace-load on the engine...what about my estate...that had 125 HOURS on track...granted most on street tires, but plenty on slicks?

So how can we answer this dilemma....what can we scientifically do to determine how this happens....and what data can we gather from it?

We are attending a track weekend at Thunderhill March 22-23...with NCRC...they run a two race format everyday...practice-qual-race-race per day...so why don't we have Kibort and Anderson drive a race each? with oil filter data cut open in between? In a pure scientific effort I will send the filters to Doc Brown for analysis...with control numbers....he can post his results....we will post the laps times???

I will protect the control numbers of filters with a select member of our community...that the community picks to insure equality....to insure there is no influence...

Granted I have no idea if Anderson is even available this weekend...I know Kibort will be there... Its all about gaining data to improve the lifespan of our engines on track under race conditions....

My goal is to determine why Kibort's engines live and everyone else blow up on well known 928 killer tracks.... The only variable that has not been factored is someone else driving Kiborts racer.... Granted both of them drove my estate TWICE....and it lived through both of their stints both days both times (it blew up after they drove it the 1st time from other issues but survived the 2nd race and third)

So am I insane...or will this theory work (if anderson can make it)



Old post follows

"Okay lets be 100% logical and scientific...even if I have been drinking heavily like always....

Kibort drives the same tracks as I do at a good pace, running the flawed (in my opinion) S4 oil system...I ran the same tracks at a similar pace, given my lower HP (by 107) and the engine died.... Only myself and Sean drove the car once I owned it...and I admit I did not take all the precautions to protect the engine that I will moving forward....so honestly the 27.5 hours on track plus all the rest previously to 1992 I would say this motor did very well by any standard...especially 928 race car standards...

So what is the answer..why does Kibort's engines that he builds live....why does everyone else blow up....why is this....there must be an answer....I ran the very best Amsoil (I am a dealer) run oil analysis every two hours and change the oil every 6....with a much better oiling system (OB pan and spacer)...Keep in mind I changed the oil at 6, but blackstone said keep running it...but I am **** so I changed it...

There must be a way to answer this ??? The current 5.0L euro going into Casper is WELL built...to exacting standards...insanely precise...I have the data....My friend Jim Morton and Sean built it, it was extremely labor intensive.... many many hours going into it.... a 5.0L euro with Euro S LH heads & cams....plus larger valves and extensive porting....I am optimistic it will make excellent power and live forever... But I can guarantee this....it won't run a stock 928 oiling system....while I respect Kiborts success it has cost me & everyone else I know thousands and thousands of $$$$ trying to replicate it....with a ZERO success rate...not one...ever...

SO I go back to my previous statement....Mark Anderson fly's' up to our race weekend March 22-23 (I'll pick you up at airport)....and runs 1 race each day....(2 per day plus practice and qualifying total) in MK's racer...to make everything fair we will pull the oil filter after each race, drain it and save it for inspection...once everyone is watching we will cut it open and document the "data" on video..... I am sure Anderson can donate a few oil filters for the cause....

Hmm...maybe a new post is in order......maybe Doc can fly up with Anderson.....Hmmm....interesting"
IcemanG17 is offline Report Post Edit/Delete Message

soltino

"So am i insane?"

Asked and answered.

tino

James Bailey

Kibort's stroker is drilled like a Chevy and has custom "chevy rods" and Chevy rod bearings.....also pretty sure it has the oil flow restrictors in the heads too...dating back to Holbert's day. Running flat out at Nardo ring it was full throttle no lift for minutes at a time on a constant sweeper of a circular track (banking limited the lateral loads somewhat) . Porsche knew the problem of packing oil in the heads already had a partial "fix" for it.
Besides IF this engine were to blow.....what does Kibort do for an engine ??? I am not seeing this test happening.

KenRudd

I can't count any outcome as official until you run it on the east coast too, say at VIR. Coriolis effect and all that...

SeanR

Just ask the community for another one?

mark kibort

Brian...... Really?

Im out in qualifying and racing ever race weekend and I usually practice too. im out there longer than anyone. SCCA doesnt have a lot of track time, but the track time i run is all out and not just crusing around like you.

Here is another thought, its not the actual hours of the engine running or racing, its the heat cycles. This is known in the engineering world to cause most of the wear. its the REASON, semi trucks run for millions of miles...... they are always runnning!

Now as far as your "contest".... I have to read it... but let me just say..... with the holbert car, i ran that car for everything it was worth. i ran SCCA, PCA, POC, World challenge, time trial, TRCAA, any place there was a battle, and rung the heck out of it. your putting around the track short shifting..... Ive spent 15 years racing at redline . NO issues, no problems, no burning oil, broken motors, etc ect. Just the issues that all racers will run into . occasional wheel bearing, broken shift lever, clutch TOB, radiator rock leaks, water pumps, etc.
Its not going to matter who drives my car, as long as the downshifts are crisp and clean. this is what I think can be an issue for bearing damage too. (read my theory for this in prior threads based on increased forces vs WOT by bad downshifts). other than that.... warm up, good oil, and at the right level, as well as smart driver RPM selection around turns, and you should have no problem with the 928 engine as long as it starts out as a good engine. (which has been a HUGE variable in this discussion)

Mk

so, a few notes:
I cut my oil filters open at each oil change.... never an issue
i shift at redline for all shifts
the holbert engine had 120 race days on it. (about 1 hour per day, min. so, about 120hours and the engine when torn apart after the wreck, looked PERFECT. all bearings looked new.)
I always run practice if possible and the entire session for qualification and races are 30 to 50 mins long.

MOST IMPORTANTLY...... YOU HAVE THE CRAPPY LITTLE OIL HOLE CRANK in the casper motor!!!!! no one has even mentioned it since i brought it up..... amazing........ what are you guys smokin? it lasted as long as it did due to the oil quality. It lasted 27hours it shouldnt have lasted 2.7 hours!

GlenL

Suspicious.

James Bailey

something just reminded me...... www.youtube.com/watch?v=b7iUKaPlBl8‎

IcemanG17

MK
You have ran for lots and lots of YEARS.....but not lots of hours.... its simple math....you typically don't practice....don't fool yourself....I have seen you too many times.... You go out for qual...and lay down one hard lap....I can respect that for saving the car..... then run the race... 40 minutes per day...

I like to run at least 2 hours per day... minimum....plus lots and lots of DE-test days developing the car.... like I said 27.5 hours on Casper since I owned it.....

So simple ??? how long does it take to get 27.5 hours of track time on your racer? My guess...3 years

Rob Edwards

DAMMIT! I was just about to post the same thing, for the same reason. Got sidetracked at Greg's and you beat me to it....

snoz

To make this test scientific, I think you need a fair and impartial driver to race each one. I would suggest that I am that man. I’ve never driven a road course and probably have little, if any, skill at doing so. I would promise that I would do my absolute best to try and nuke the motor of each car no matter how many hours it might take. Ahh, it was worth a try.

GregBBRD

Moderator.....

Please block Kibort's computer from receiving this. His ego can't take much more, without his head exploding!

For all the **** I give Kibort....

There has to be something good about Amsoil. I'm going to do as Kibort suggests and find out. I suspect that they are very "active" with anti-foaming additives....which would help a ton, in the 928 engine, and I believe from seeing results of oil testing that they "fudge" a bit on viscosity. Their 15-50 oil looks more like a 15-60 oil, to me.

And for the lap times that Mark does turn, with the crap that he seems to use for tires....he has to be pretty damn smooth.

Regardless, you don't have to have a Doctorate in Physics to know that eventually the cornering forces are going to eventually get high enough to expose the pick-up and the pick-up is going to suck air.....there simply isn't enough of anything in the 928 oil pan to keep this from happening. I, however, do not believe that the best oil on the planet is going to keep the rod bearings from touching the crankshaft, when this happens.

Which sadly means only one thing....it's just a matter of time!

The Fixer

IcemanG17

ultimately it all comes down to this...when I bought my 1st race 928 with a 32V engine....I was warned by lots of people that it will blow up....I thought, I am still learning and Kibort runs the exact same tracks much faster than I do and his doesn't.....guess what happened....it almost blew up, I caught it probably one session before it did....

928 racer 2.0..... I spent lots of $$$$ rebuilding it the right way with the right mods (at the time)...but the person that built the engine messed up and it died in under an hour....yes I was slightly pissed and lost over $7k

Sold the car...marriage suffered horribly...I also sold my pristine 928 S4 street car...marriage still suffered

928 racer 3.0...was the Estate....a 1984 automatic I bought for $256....due to time crunch for race we didn't seal enough oil leaks, plus it was turning way too many RPM..redline 6000 but it wouldn't shift until we lifted at 6500....NOT GOOD....it was leaking so much oil we (me anderson kibort) decided to run crap oil since we didn't have enough amsoil to last....the engine still lasted much longer than I thought...almost finished the race...but got rod knock that we brought in an parked...didn't stay out until it grenaded

Estate 2.0 (928 racer 4.0)....the $300 used engine was a rock star..used OB oil pan and 3/8th spacer...engine rules...ran great forever and ever...125 hours on track for me in under 2 years...another 50 for the current owner before it got leaned out too far to make power, detonated and blew up....175 hours on track...on a 117k used $300 engine...I will say that is a record

I sold the estate to buy Casper, (928 racer 5.0)....it was a $10k custom rebuilt engine in 1992....did many miles on the street (about 100k) than became a racer in 2008-ish...I bought casper in 2012....with 3 full seasons racing SCCA in the pac northwest.... I got 27.5 hours on track before the engine blew running ONLY the OB oil pan...no spacer, cooler or accusump...nothing....I still say that is a quite successful engine

Casper 2.0 (race 928 6.0) is a 5.0L euro....I am confident this engine will live....we have a solid plan in place....oil analysis, cutting filters plus preventative maintenance of rod bearings...with measurements-wear data at least once per year...probably twice given the high run time I except from my racers...

I can promise this....I will not move forward blind like I have in the past....its all about documenting everything you do, what works and what doesn't....I am tired of throwing money away...its time to seriously document my race 928....everything that is going on inside the engine...to scientifically prove what works, why and what doesn't....no more "it blew up..I dunno"...I refuse to accept that anymore...

I hope to be an open book....no smoke-mirrors, miracle oil, whatever...I want to be able to document exactly what i did, how the engine responded and what I did to keep it alive.... I want to provide an answer that can keep most race 928's alive....regardless of driver, track or oil... Pure scientific theory....we did X..results were Y....

Dave928S

Holy Kibort Batman ... now you've REALLY done it!