928 racer challenge..kibort vs the world.. March 22-23 Thunderhill
#46
Former Vendor
Well... Doesn't that right there prove there is an issue with the pickup!? And that there's an oiling issue!?
If it were fully submerged, there shouldn't be any drop of pressure...
I guess you should rephrase this to 'the pickup and oiling issues of a 928 are not an issue for me... Yet...'
Perhaps the anti foaming and film strength qualities of Amsoil are enough to overcome the occasions that air is feed to your bearings...?
If it were fully submerged, there shouldn't be any drop of pressure...
I guess you should rephrase this to 'the pickup and oiling issues of a 928 are not an issue for me... Yet...'
Perhaps the anti foaming and film strength qualities of Amsoil are enough to overcome the occasions that air is feed to your bearings...?
Yes, it does tell you that the pick-up is uncovered......which makes Mark's claims about Amsoil even more interesting.
Imagine if that oil sender was in the head, without the restrictor in it!
#47
Former Vendor
You're a great sport Mr. Kilbort.
These new pans by Moroso address the same LS motor oiling issues while road racing and drag racing.
w/ 4-trap door assembly and anti-slosh baffle to keep oil contained around the pick-up.
one with deeper front for clearance for use of main-cap-mounted windage tray.
Greg, a similar design (the shelf which is around the pickup tube but an insert into the OB pan) would keep our oil from
sloshing away from the pickup under hard long corners.
A whole new laser cut steel pan would be ideal (you could add more depth) if the interest was there..
These new pans by Moroso address the same LS motor oiling issues while road racing and drag racing.
w/ 4-trap door assembly and anti-slosh baffle to keep oil contained around the pick-up.
one with deeper front for clearance for use of main-cap-mounted windage tray.
Greg, a similar design (the shelf which is around the pickup tube but an insert into the OB pan) would keep our oil from
sloshing away from the pickup under hard long corners.
A whole new laser cut steel pan would be ideal (you could add more depth) if the interest was there..
#48
Former Vendor
All wet sumps used in any road racing car have this oiling issue when cornering.
If Greg were to design a laser cut horizontal baffle to be weld attached to his spacer. (which i plan on buying) this would be a nice product for us.
The baffles perimeter should be louvered not drilled to allow easy oil return but when cornering the oil could not easily travel up trough the louvres because of there angle toward the center of the sump.
This laser cut aluminum part (i assume spacer is alum.) and it's 4 attachment 'ears' and louvers could then be bent to shape by hand on a form to keep production cost very, very low. Then Greg would weld the formed (10or12 ga.) sheet aluminum baffle to his spacer. Very easy.
I'd like this along with an oil accumulator, and that would be the best wet sump
set up imvho.
If Greg were to design a laser cut horizontal baffle to be weld attached to his spacer. (which i plan on buying) this would be a nice product for us.
The baffles perimeter should be louvered not drilled to allow easy oil return but when cornering the oil could not easily travel up trough the louvres because of there angle toward the center of the sump.
This laser cut aluminum part (i assume spacer is alum.) and it's 4 attachment 'ears' and louvers could then be bent to shape by hand on a form to keep production cost very, very low. Then Greg would weld the formed (10or12 ga.) sheet aluminum baffle to his spacer. Very easy.
I'd like this along with an oil accumulator, and that would be the best wet sump
set up imvho.
All of the dry sump pans that I've seen don't do exactly what I think is needed.
#49
Rennlist Member
anyway, if the oil isn't foaming as much, and the pressure is still at a constant 4.5bar, I don't see the issue, especially if the oil has some film characteristics that allows for some momentary pressure losses. Just say'n!
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#51
Archive Gatekeeper
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Hey now, let's be clear, for the record- MK has never lost an online challenge to a race. Undefeated.
#52
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Drewester
I would like to state for the record that I would never intentionally over rev or otherwise maliciously damage a 928 engine or any other engine for that matter. I drive them they break that's just the way it is.
Sean
I would like to state for the record that I would never intentionally over rev or otherwise maliciously damage a 928 engine or any other engine for that matter. I drive them they break that's just the way it is.
Sean
#53
Former Vendor
do you really think I have a restrictor in the head? can you see where it would be in the pics. I have a lot of pics from the heads, or is it something you need to measure.
anyway, if the oil isn't foaming as much, and the pressure is still at a constant 4.5bar, I don't see the issue, especially if the oil has some film characteristics that allows for some momentary pressure losses. Just say'n!
anyway, if the oil isn't foaming as much, and the pressure is still at a constant 4.5bar, I don't see the issue, especially if the oil has some film characteristics that allows for some momentary pressure losses. Just say'n!
The sender is also located in the main galley, before the bearings.
I think that a better spot for the sender is in the head, with the "restrictor" drilled out some. This would report what pressure the heads had (which is after the main bearing channel)....giving a much more accurate reading of what the engine is actually "seeing" for oil pressure.
The 924 engines had the oil pressure sender in the head. The 911 engines had the sender after the main bearing channel.....on the feed line to the cam carrier. The 944 and the 928 engines have the sender before the bearings, in the most "optimistic" position possible.
If you are seeing a drop through corners, without a corresponding drop in rpm's....you're sucking air. There simply isn't any other possible reason.
The fact that your engine is still alive speaks volumes for your oil and methods....that drop in pressure is/has been certain death for 944 and 928 engines.
Do your lifters ever clatter after you come in off the track?
#54
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the NT01s are pretty sticky, like between an RA1 and a hoosier R6. yes, the slicks will pull more gs for sure. I dont think you can kill a 928 that is good from the start. I want to see some video footage to see if i can see something you might be doing. i cant imagine you are doing anything special that could make you a 928 killer. the video should show something. as it is now, you see me hitting the rev liimiter on almost every shift. what else can you be doing diff? the only variables are downshifts and the RPM you carry in the sweepers or turns.
For the record I would never drive someone else's car a hard as I drive my own.
If we ever end up at the track at the same time I'll take you for a couple of laps.
#55
Nordschleife Master
There a spread between babying it, working it hard, and beating it. Beating the car is fun and exciting but it's not faster.
#56
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I used to do that. I'd downshift hard in the braking zone and hold the revs up to be at max power at the apex. Now I downshift after turn-in, or trailbraking, and roll on smoothly.
There a spread between babying it, working it hard, and beating it. Beating the car is fun and exciting but it's not faster.
There a spread between babying it, working it hard, and beating it. Beating the car is fun and exciting but it's not faster.
I drive my Dodge Neon ice racer, it lives.
I drive my friends 300hp Dodge Neon SRT4 on slicks it lives.
I drive my BMW 325ix rally car it lives.
I drive our Honda civic Chump car it lives, for 36 hours at Spokane last time out.
I'm semi retired and spent 100 days at a race track racing something or other last year. Not wanting to sound like Mark K but I do spend more time on track than most here. I consistently have the fastest average time when I race on an endurance team.
I drive my 928 it dies.
I borrow my buddies 928 and drive it and it dies.
That's the facts Jack!
#57
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My point being in my previous post not that I am the worlds greatest driver but I do have a pretty good idea about what is fast and what is not.
I love 928s as much or more than anyone, I own 7 of them but any one who thinks a stock 928 oiling system is a good choice for a track/ race car is delusional.
I love 928s as much or more than anyone, I own 7 of them but any one who thinks a stock 928 oiling system is a good choice for a track/ race car is delusional.
#58
Drifting
What about an updated or improved GB spacer/baffle insert kit for our wet sumps.
You can design the best baffle as you know how these cars are driven on track and how oil returns to the sump.
This sump 'insert' with silicone seals along with your windage tray would be a terrific oiling improvement kit.
You could even have a lower hinged baffle toward the rear of 'pan' to stop oil (around the pickup) from sloshing backward on hard acceleration from a dead start. That could be another version of the insert and more expensive.
This would be very easy for you to do, and i'd really like to have this type of kit.
laser cutting aluminum is real cheap these days.
Also another oiling question;
I want to use an oil accumulator on my US '83 5-speed.
It does not have oil cooler lines to the new radiator. block is plugged.
I plan to go to an air to oil cooler set up-up front above the spoiler.
I have to install the oil regulator or thermostat bits up above the sender to use a cooler i know.
I want an oil accumulator not just for occasional track use, but for their benefit of pressurizing oil in the motor while starting up. trying to wrap my feeble brain around the best install method, but new to these motors..
? Should i plumb my accumulator feed into the return line from the air to oil cooler with a tee, or into these 'sandwich' plates offered that are installed between the block and oil filter? Or some other oil galley ?
A correct do it yourself oil accumulator kit (for street or race) for the 928 would also be nice.
TIA, Matt
#59
Rennlist Member
No, there's a very tiny drilling in the oil pressure sender, so that the gauge doesn't react to every tiny little change in oil pressure, making the driver nuts. This "restrictor" slows down the oil pressure that reaches the actual electronic of the sender....think of it as a "shock absorber".
The sender is also located in the main galley, before the bearings.
I think that a better spot for the sender is in the head, with the "restrictor" drilled out some. This would report what pressure the heads had (which is after the main bearing channel)....giving a much more accurate reading of what the engine is actually "seeing" for oil pressure.
The 924 engines had the oil pressure sender in the head. The 911 engines had the sender after the main bearing channel.....on the feed line to the cam carrier. The 944 and the 928 engines have the sender before the bearings, in the most "optimistic" position possible.
If you are seeing a drop through corners, without a corresponding drop in rpm's....you're sucking air. There simply isn't any other possible reason.
The fact that your engine is still alive speaks volumes for your oil and methods....that drop in pressure is/has been certain death for 944 and 928 engines.
Do your lifters ever clatter after you come in off the track?
The sender is also located in the main galley, before the bearings.
I think that a better spot for the sender is in the head, with the "restrictor" drilled out some. This would report what pressure the heads had (which is after the main bearing channel)....giving a much more accurate reading of what the engine is actually "seeing" for oil pressure.
The 924 engines had the oil pressure sender in the head. The 911 engines had the sender after the main bearing channel.....on the feed line to the cam carrier. The 944 and the 928 engines have the sender before the bearings, in the most "optimistic" position possible.
If you are seeing a drop through corners, without a corresponding drop in rpm's....you're sucking air. There simply isn't any other possible reason.
The fact that your engine is still alive speaks volumes for your oil and methods....that drop in pressure is/has been certain death for 944 and 928 engines.
Do your lifters ever clatter after you come in off the track?
btw.... however, it did make HUGE noises when it came off the car carrier after the drive to Road America. I think all that vibration pulled all the oil out of the lifters. when I started the car up, I thought I had a rod bearing problem. it lasted as I drove to the sign up building and back and then went away! thank god..... it freaked me out. but other than that, it never happened again.
#60
Rennlist Member
I do down shift hard it's not unusual for the tach to bounce to 6,000 when I let the clutch out and I like to keep the revs up in the corners I like to be back on throttle before the apex long before if possible It's always been my philosophy that if you have to baby your equipment you have the wrong equipment.
For the record I would never drive someone else's car a hard as I drive my own.
If we ever end up at the track at the same time I'll take you for a couple of laps.
For the record I would never drive someone else's car a hard as I drive my own.
If we ever end up at the track at the same time I'll take you for a couple of laps.