So I bought a track car. Well, okay, two track cars.
02-04-2014, 12:12 AM
#271
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I was unaware.
Timely info as I have a 5.0L Euro hybrid currently under construction. I still think the lower horsepower cars on street tires are fairly safe to track.
Thanks
Sean
02-04-2014, 12:28 AM
#272
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Here's 1 page of an epic 6-page invoice from Greg, this'll be 20 years old next month.
I like the labor description- Engine trash. Heads good.
I like the labor description- Engine trash. Heads good.
02-04-2014, 01:03 AM
#274
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Yeah, me too. That would have been at the bottom of the real estate bust of the early '90s, no?
02-04-2014, 03:17 AM
#275
Drifting
On man Greg, in all my years here on RL, that post has to rank up towards the top in depressing me. Mainly cause it comes from someone who we all highly respect as an expert in 928s. I just cannot grasp this finality of my 928 not being able to handle being occasionally tracked. Not raced, but tracked. A car that was in production for 18 yrs & typically cost $20k more than a 911 when new. My 1985 928 had a base price of $50k, that's over $108k in today's dollars.
I understand engineering problems, like current IMS bearing failures in the M96/M97 engines. But is there no answer to make my 928 fairly durable for a few DEs a year? I also understand about oil in the intake. Mine gets it like they all do. But they have found a cure for the IMS bearing failure. In 20+ years is there still is no reasonable cost effective solution for a 928 to do a handful of track days each year?
I'm having a bit of trouble grasping that a Porsche V8, built for the supercar it was in its day, can't handle two days of four 20 minute sessions at Roebling Road Raceway, where my RogerBox rarely gets above 4500 rpm due to the configuration of the track, even when I keep it in 3rd gear. Not Thunderhill; Willow; or VIR, with the long sweepers or long straights. No weird downshifting by me & my top speed on the front straight is 115-120 tops. Heck, there are Civics out there tearing it up & I have to accept that my V8 Supercar wasn't designed to be driven hard? I know it was designed to be for the executive to drive 140mph on the Autobahn. Isn't that kinda a race track???
As much as I love 928s, you have me wondering if I shouldn't have passed on the great deal I ran across a couple weeks ago on a supercharged Roush Mustang. I couldn't imagine selling my 928 for that. Please tell me something of what I could cost effectively do to limit the risk of doom & death to my beloved 928 due to oiling issues for 2-3 DEs a year?
I understand engineering problems, like current IMS bearing failures in the M96/M97 engines. But is there no answer to make my 928 fairly durable for a few DEs a year? I also understand about oil in the intake. Mine gets it like they all do. But they have found a cure for the IMS bearing failure. In 20+ years is there still is no reasonable cost effective solution for a 928 to do a handful of track days each year?
I'm having a bit of trouble grasping that a Porsche V8, built for the supercar it was in its day, can't handle two days of four 20 minute sessions at Roebling Road Raceway, where my RogerBox rarely gets above 4500 rpm due to the configuration of the track, even when I keep it in 3rd gear. Not Thunderhill; Willow; or VIR, with the long sweepers or long straights. No weird downshifting by me & my top speed on the front straight is 115-120 tops. Heck, there are Civics out there tearing it up & I have to accept that my V8 Supercar wasn't designed to be driven hard? I know it was designed to be for the executive to drive 140mph on the Autobahn. Isn't that kinda a race track???
As much as I love 928s, you have me wondering if I shouldn't have passed on the great deal I ran across a couple weeks ago on a supercharged Roush Mustang. I couldn't imagine selling my 928 for that. Please tell me something of what I could cost effectively do to limit the risk of doom & death to my beloved 928 due to oiling issues for 2-3 DEs a year?
Most 911 derivative racing cars looked like a 911 but really were nothing like one except for the very first one used for testing.(see link)
I know my 1986 Carrera (deceased) was said t be a great track car. But they had weaknesses. if you over revved it even a little there was a good chance you could stretch con rod bolts. Their valve guides all failed premature, head stud issues, etc.. They all used a lot of oil. IIRC mine used about 1 qt. every 500 miles (or less, it ingested the stuff) which was OK according to Porsche at the time.
Point is, you had to go in and replace/upgrade components to track a 1986 911 and be competitive. But there also is a lot of good stuff available
to upgrade these Porsche for track duty from people (like Smart Racing) who have been racing them for decades.
IMO most Porsche street car motors have their weaknesses which will be brought to light if used for racing. I can't speak for their new Super cars as i know little about them.
But the 911 power plants were not trouble free to be used as track cars.
Look at these 911 derived race cars, they aren't 911 street cars at all; 4 cams, water-cooled heads in the mid 80s.
They shared the same case (block to us here) but just about everything inside was re engineered by Porsche for racing.
They were dry sump though which was a better start.
But I wouldn't sweat this info from Greg at all, use it and make these motors better.
Enjoy your 928 it's a beautifully engineered automobile!!
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...60444564,d.aWc
Last edited by The Fixer; 02-04-2014 at 03:38 AM.
02-04-2014, 01:53 PM
#276
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FWIW, I had all sorts of grandiose plans about datalogging and video capture, I'd gotten all the clamps and adapters to mount my GoPro to the harness bar, even charged its remote. But I just ran out of time- Was counting on having some time in the paddock on Saturday AM to get it all hooked up, wasn't counting on there being a novice driver's Ed chalkboard talk between each session. So it sat in the trailer. Dumb, I know. I can make excuses about the dayjob, but I won't bother. 
I will have a NUC PC, a WBO2 and the ST2 mounted safely in the car next time it steps foot on a track, I promise. Have been looking at Traqmate systems as well.
I will have a NUC PC, a WBO2 and the ST2 mounted safely in the car next time it steps foot on a track, I promise. Have been looking at Traqmate systems as well.
02-04-2014, 02:16 PM
#277
Nordschleife Master
99% of all engine and hydraulic oils reach peak efficiency at 180F. Most start to degrade above 220F.
Due to this, it would be wise to add an oil cooler and keep your oil temps between these two temperatures on the track.
Due to this, it would be wise to add an oil cooler and keep your oil temps between these two temperatures on the track.
02-04-2014, 02:31 PM
#278
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As a new owner of a dedicated 928 track car - I find this discussion particularly interesting. I'm aware of some of the inadequacies of the 928 motor but its amazing that 35 years after the car was introduced - there are still open discussions about how best to keep the motor alive on track.
02-04-2014, 02:49 PM
#279
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Well, as I've amply demonstrated, there's still occasionally a disconnect between best practices and actual practices.
02-04-2014, 04:44 PM
#281
Former Vendor
Perhaps I need to reword this....seems to be some confusion.
I have not/do not build race engines for Kibort or Colin. I've built 20 years+ of high performance engines for Mark Anderson. It's been my job to design and build these engines to survive with Mark Anderson driving....not Mark Kibort.
I am completely confident that if Mark Anderson can't break it....no one can. I am not convinced that Kibort's car would survive one day, at Willow Springs, with Mark Anderson driving.
What I build is the evolution of lessons learned from working continuously on the 928 engine for over 20 years. Stock street engines, stroker street engines, open road racing engines, and track engines.....of many different varieties. 100's of them....not one, two, or ten. Literally hundreds of 928 engines.
I do not build all engines the same. Different applications require different pieces.
You guys can do whatever you want to do, with your own engines. I've got a pretty good idea of what is required for what I do.
Sorry I waste your time sharing my ideas.
I have not/do not build race engines for Kibort or Colin. I've built 20 years+ of high performance engines for Mark Anderson. It's been my job to design and build these engines to survive with Mark Anderson driving....not Mark Kibort.
I am completely confident that if Mark Anderson can't break it....no one can. I am not convinced that Kibort's car would survive one day, at Willow Springs, with Mark Anderson driving.
What I build is the evolution of lessons learned from working continuously on the 928 engine for over 20 years. Stock street engines, stroker street engines, open road racing engines, and track engines.....of many different varieties. 100's of them....not one, two, or ten. Literally hundreds of 928 engines.
I do not build all engines the same. Different applications require different pieces.
You guys can do whatever you want to do, with your own engines. I've got a pretty good idea of what is required for what I do.
Sorry I waste your time sharing my ideas.
02-04-2014, 05:22 PM
#283
Nordschleife Master
02-04-2014, 07:01 PM
#284
02-04-2014, 08:08 PM
#285
Drifting
A good motor shouldn't build up the sort of pressure to put all this oil into the intake.
There must be a way to vent these motors better (without siphoning oil into the intake.)
Anyway, if you did a leak down test i'd be curious to know how much pressure was getting past the rings, i'd guess a lot.
As a side note, I DIG Kilbort's common sense approach to maintaining his track car's powerplants and his generally positive attitude toward the 928 model.
Without that there is no reason to tune in here.