Purists who hate the chevy conversion.... this car is legit.
12-01-2012, 10:49 PM
#196
12-01-2012, 11:18 PM
#197
Nordschleife Master
Honestly, if you had said this BEFORE I took delivery of the car, I might have argued the swap point more. However, even though the mileage is high, it's a Cali car, is a one owner, garaged it's whole life and has good compression. For now, I am doing the requisite maintenance and have purchased a good Y-pipe exhaust (from the headers back) I found that should help it breath better along with one of Lizards short shifters. For the foreseeable future, I am going to keep the Porsche drive train and see how deep the rabbit hole goes. What I really am interested in is the C5 Vette Transaxle 6spd swap instead at this point to be honest.........I hope this goes on sale soon as it's being discussed in another thread. Thanks for the advice.......much appreciated
Unless you have specific problems with leakdown, oil consumption, compression, or head gasket failure, then just replace the 20 year old rubber hoses, intake seals, and any failed sensors, and drive the snot out of it. Plenty of 928's are in the >200k mile range.
The fact is, its an insanely overbuilt V8 which, for street driving, spends its entire life barely being stressed with only very occasional runs north of 5k rpm's.
By all means swap the driveline if you want to - but you almost certainly don't need to.
12-01-2012, 11:23 PM
#198
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DanglerB not sure anyone can say what % of people are happy with conversions. Since this came up again, searched many sites, and found one intriguing that there are many happy 928 and 944 owners happy with their conversions. I admit, many conversions are not done or finished probably due to the owners mechanical ineptness.
Found through LKQ I can get an ls1 cheap with harness, pcm, and then exchange any brackets and pumps ac till the fit is correct.
Seems Holley makes an oil pan to fit the LS1 and porsche 928 (dont know if it includes traps or not). Seems to have a bit of high area in sealing but fixable.
Anyone who can weld alum.
can make the oil pan, if they are half way knowledgable of measurements.
Motor mounts can be made easily, cheaper if they can weld or know someone who welds.
Havent even thought about tt adaptor. But can be done.
If one is not willing to do the work to save money but buy parts, it can be done. Just do homework. Thus, many folks probably think they can do a conversion but yet they don't know how to remove an engine.
Found through LKQ I can get an ls1 cheap with harness, pcm, and then exchange any brackets and pumps ac till the fit is correct.
Seems Holley makes an oil pan to fit the LS1 and porsche 928 (dont know if it includes traps or not). Seems to have a bit of high area in sealing but fixable.
Anyone who can weld alum.
can make the oil pan, if they are half way knowledgable of measurements.Motor mounts can be made easily, cheaper if they can weld
or know someone who welds.Havent even thought about tt adaptor. But can be done.
If one is not willing to do the work to save money but buy parts, it can be done. Just do homework. Thus, many folks probably think they can do a conversion but yet they don't know how to remove an engine.
12-01-2012, 11:35 PM
#199
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DanglerB not sure anyone can say what % of people are happy with conversions. Since this came up again, searched many sites, and found one intriguing that there are many happy 928 and 944 owners happy with their conversions. I admit, many conversions are not done or finished probably due to the owners mechanical ineptness.
Which is why the project was even considered. "The Porsche's too hard to work on".
I find it no harder than most other things Ive ever worked on.
Requiring more detail in how you do things, is not part of "harder"..just you got it or not.
12-01-2012, 11:39 PM
#200
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I work on my own for so many years.
Maybe guys with knwoledge with leedes year, help logically diagnois it, maybe help with free parts. IF he agrees to sell it or trade it, so that a euro is not ruined. Thats what many folks say. But a few say its not worth anything not running.
I say help the guy, instead of saying use search button. Many folks ask questions and many are helped without being told use search button.
Thats what the forum is about helping right?
Maybe guys with knwoledge with leedes year, help logically diagnois it, maybe help with free parts. IF he agrees to sell it or trade it, so that a euro is not ruined. Thats what many folks say. But a few say its not worth anything not running.
I say help the guy, instead of saying use search button. Many folks ask questions and many are helped without being told use search button.
Thats what the forum is about helping right?
12-02-2012, 12:30 AM
#201
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190k miles isn't high for a 928. Odds are, as long as its been regularly serviced (i.e. regular coolant and oil changes) its barely worn inside. The 928 internals are extremely robust, and the alusil block is *very* hard wearing. There was a write-up by a known-good 928 workshop online with a teardown of a 213k mile 90 GT engine - with almost no wear (meany measurements within "new" tolerance). Sadly the link in that thread has gone down - but it was very interesting to have a well documented teardown by a factory-trained mechanic who's known that particular car since new.
Unless you have specific problems with leakdown, oil consumption, compression, or head gasket failure, then just replace the 20 year old rubber hoses, intake seals, and any failed sensors, and drive the snot out of it. Plenty of 928's are in the >200k mile range.
The fact is, its an insanely overbuilt V8 which, for street driving, spends its entire life barely being stressed with only very occasional runs north of 5k rpm's.
By all means swap the driveline if you want to - but you almost certainly don't need to.
Unless you have specific problems with leakdown, oil consumption, compression, or head gasket failure, then just replace the 20 year old rubber hoses, intake seals, and any failed sensors, and drive the snot out of it. Plenty of 928's are in the >200k mile range.
The fact is, its an insanely overbuilt V8 which, for street driving, spends its entire life barely being stressed with only very occasional runs north of 5k rpm's.
By all means swap the driveline if you want to - but you almost certainly don't need to.
Thanks again for the advice as the more I read and research, the more I tend to lean toward the Porsche power plant. Really, swapping the trans axle for the Z06 6spd, would be more for the benefit of things like the carbon triple cone synchros (only available from the factory with the Vette T56), double overdrives (for decent gas mileage at highway speeds), and the ability to mix/match gearing to suit (as I would like to do the occasional track day). All that being said, I also would like to retain the ability to mothball any factory parts and reverse my modifications at a later date......engine swaps generally, in my experience, don't lend to that. Anyway, I would say to anybody doing a swap to itemize the whole thing first with a spreadsheet as well.......especially to the OP. I can see there is a wealth of knowledge on this forum about this car and I already consider it an invaluable resource as I have a lot to learn about the quirks of this car. My thing though, is in the end it's really up to the owner; as it's a personal decision and should be treated as such. Were I to do it, I would go with a painless harness and F.A.S.T standalone EFI (just like my RX7) just to help cure 25+ year old wiring issues that pop up in any old car. I guess having swapped two of my other cars (one being the "hallowed" Rotary RX7.....at least that's what the "Rotards" think of it) and caught so much static for going over to "The Dark Side" that after a while feedback starts to sound like "white noise" anyway. People have to find out for themselves, although it sounds like the OP is far from being a novice mechanic and should be treated as such.
12-02-2012, 12:38 AM
#202
Three Wheelin'
The temptation for cheap fun will always out sale the high cost for superior engineering. I think the statement from the 928 Owners Manual says it all and it is featured in my signature. It's not all about having 400HP or 500HP for many 928 owners. Horsepower figures sell as people can easily relate to that. Not as many car buyers will care if their bores have an engineering advantage in place to facilitate a virtually indestructible bore or whether it has steel liners for convenient serviceability. That's not included in the sales pitch. That doesn't sound as sexy as 500hp for x dollars, I know.
The OP has more interest in the 928 for its appearance, so I don't guess he is a "purist" if I understand that stereotype by its correct definition. Does a "purist" mean that you appreciate a 928 for what makes it a 928?? Anyway, my thoughts are that if the OP wants to covert his 928 to a tractor, boat, or even a Corvette then he should go for it. It would be much harder and costlier to reshape a Corvette to look like a 928 than it would to convert the drivetrain of the 928.
The OP has more interest in the 928 for its appearance, so I don't guess he is a "purist" if I understand that stereotype by its correct definition. Does a "purist" mean that you appreciate a 928 for what makes it a 928?? Anyway, my thoughts are that if the OP wants to covert his 928 to a tractor, boat, or even a Corvette then he should go for it. It would be much harder and costlier to reshape a Corvette to look like a 928 than it would to convert the drivetrain of the 928.
12-02-2012, 01:15 AM
#203
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superior engineering ? huh ? the Texas DPS put the LS technology and versatility of the LS platform through the most serious abuse you can do for about 8 years. the platform was a huge success for DPS...
Porsche engines are ok. but, extraordinarily expensive to go really long miles. at least for what i drive. @ 150 k miles things were going pretty well.... but now in the space of just a few thousand miles, my engine turned into a full money pit.... blown AC, clutch... motor mounts, and now a failing head gasket which started the lifters clanging, and needs God knows whatever else.... it was a solid driver for a long time (w/ about $18 k in repairs and maintenance for the engine and serpentine parts)--manageable....
that was then. suppose i'd be winning this go round, since the belts need to be done again after.... **(yeah endless fun), but they all turn into serious problem cars before too long... i would also be needing to do the rod bearings about now....
anyway, the 3.0 is coming out before the end of the year for a short stroke LS7.
i'm a fan of the 928s. i'd like to think the biggest Porsche apologists aren't the guys who drive their cars 8 thousand miles a year... but it seems, (at least with the four cylinder crowd)-- they are.
Porsche engines are ok. but, extraordinarily expensive to go really long miles. at least for what i drive. @ 150 k miles things were going pretty well.... but now in the space of just a few thousand miles, my engine turned into a full money pit.... blown AC, clutch... motor mounts, and now a failing head gasket which started the lifters clanging, and needs God knows whatever else.... it was a solid driver for a long time (w/ about $18 k in repairs and maintenance for the engine and serpentine parts)--manageable....
that was then. suppose i'd be winning this go round, since the belts need to be done again after.... **(yeah endless fun), but they all turn into serious problem cars before too long... i would also be needing to do the rod bearings about now....
anyway, the 3.0 is coming out before the end of the year for a short stroke LS7.
i'm a fan of the 928s. i'd like to think the biggest Porsche apologists aren't the guys who drive their cars 8 thousand miles a year... but it seems, (at least with the four cylinder crowd)-- they are.
Last edited by odurandina; 12-02-2012 at 01:34 AM.
12-02-2012, 01:24 AM
#204
Three Wheelin'
superior engineering ? huh ? the Texas DPS put the LS technology and versatility of the LS platform through the most serious abuse you can do for about 8 years. the platform was a huge success for DPS...
Porsche engines are ok. and extraordinarily expensive to go really long miles. at least for what i drive. @ 150 k miles things were going pretty well.... but now in the space of just a few thousand miles, she turned the corner into full money pit status.... blown AC, then the clutch and now a failing head gasket, the lifters are clanging, and needs God knows whatever else.... i suppose i'd be winning since the belts need to be done again after 2 years of decent service.
all these Porsche engines are endless fun.
anyway, this one's coming out of the car before the end of the year for a short stroke LS7.
Porsche engines are ok. and extraordinarily expensive to go really long miles. at least for what i drive. @ 150 k miles things were going pretty well.... but now in the space of just a few thousand miles, she turned the corner into full money pit status.... blown AC, then the clutch and now a failing head gasket, the lifters are clanging, and needs God knows whatever else.... i suppose i'd be winning since the belts need to be done again after 2 years of decent service.
all these Porsche engines are endless fun.
anyway, this one's coming out of the car before the end of the year for a short stroke LS7.
I wonder what Steve Jobs meant when he said he wanted Apple to be the Porsche of his industry.
12-02-2012, 01:48 AM
#205
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fair enough, the LT engines were't the best... i was a happy owner of a buick regal with a '70s era 2 bolt sbc (until a co-worker begged me to sell him the car and i got an almost new 944).... the Regal ran great thanks to one of the new edelbrock carbs which let me dump the more tempermental Holley.... still, i wonder if it would have been even better with the fuel systems and engine management we have for the LS engines. i think any way you can drive a 928, 944 or 968 for endless miles on the cheap, can only be a good thing. i can't wait to finally find out for myself.
12-02-2012, 02:07 AM
#207
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DanglerB, My price to you would be $20,000 for the specification you presented. Just like Renegade or anyone else in the business with a shop, equipment, employees, overhead, and taxes. And Good for them!!!! If you want Renegade to do all of the thinking and provide a complete package....then pay up and be happy!!! But, if you are mechanically inclined, enjoy the process, and like to exercise your "thinker", then there is a less expensive path to the same result.
12-02-2012, 03:04 AM
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Who do you want pulling YOUR chariot?
Categorizing everyone who isn't turned on by these Chevy conversions as a "purist", is completely misinterpreting our sentiments. You're missing the point.
You see, the 928 is a sexy beast, and one of the sexiest parts of the car is the engine, with all its a exotic and visually appealing engineering. So maybe its not making huge horsepower stock compared to modern supercars (of course big horsepower can be had in a number of ways now, just go stroker, sc, turbo..), but its still a hot piece of engineering that greatly adds to the interest and holistic appeal of this car.
I like Chevys too, but I get tired of seeing these motors in most street rods, they do get boring. They're not boring in a classic Chevrolet mind you, but a real snooze in most anything else at the car show. Not that all engine swaps are boring either, some creative ones are very cool. And it's not that we're so horrified that its not "pure", its just a waste of good engineering that we value, and usually a downgrade. In some of the rarer 928s it shouldn't be done for historic purposes, but for your garden variety, its just plain uninspiring. With a car like a classic Porsche, or Astons, Ferraris and other exotics, it shouldn't be about what is cheaper horsepower (and as many here have pointed out that's a misconception anyway), but what is a powerful drivetrain that is as sexy and unique as the rest of the car, an integral whole.
And if you still don't get it...
Okay, so you're a gladiator and you have one of the most beautifully designed chariots in all of Rome. And this chariot has a supermodel (humor me for a moment and imagine these chariots are pulled by women) attached to the front as your power source; a perfect complement to the gorgeous chariot itself. Now maybe this supermodel has fallen slightly out of shape, but you could sign her up for Crossfit or kickboxing classes and get her back into supermodel form, where she's nicely toned and shrieks melodiously when in top shape.
But instead, you're gonna fire her because you're not quite sure you can handle a supermodel.... And bring in some homely corn-fed broad to take her place, who probably doesn't even have the same athletic potential to begin with... who's totally unrefined and looks like the fugly scanks that most of the low-life non-gladiators are hanging with, and grunts like a pig when exerting herself... All because you think she'll pull you pretty fast for cheaper.
I for one, prefer to get this hot b!tch in shape and have her sexy a$$ pulling my chariot around, as most self respecting gladiators would. We'll just sort of laugh and feel sorry for the dude that has some knuckle-dragging heffer grunting along in front of his otherwise decent chariot, while you ride along scratching your head and calling us "purists", lol...
You just don't get it!
You see, the 928 is a sexy beast, and one of the sexiest parts of the car is the engine, with all its a exotic and visually appealing engineering. So maybe its not making huge horsepower stock compared to modern supercars (of course big horsepower can be had in a number of ways now, just go stroker, sc, turbo..), but its still a hot piece of engineering that greatly adds to the interest and holistic appeal of this car.
I like Chevys too, but I get tired of seeing these motors in most street rods, they do get boring. They're not boring in a classic Chevrolet mind you, but a real snooze in most anything else at the car show. Not that all engine swaps are boring either, some creative ones are very cool. And it's not that we're so horrified that its not "pure", its just a waste of good engineering that we value, and usually a downgrade. In some of the rarer 928s it shouldn't be done for historic purposes, but for your garden variety, its just plain uninspiring. With a car like a classic Porsche, or Astons, Ferraris and other exotics, it shouldn't be about what is cheaper horsepower (and as many here have pointed out that's a misconception anyway), but what is a powerful drivetrain that is as sexy and unique as the rest of the car, an integral whole.
And if you still don't get it...
Okay, so you're a gladiator and you have one of the most beautifully designed chariots in all of Rome. And this chariot has a supermodel (humor me for a moment and imagine these chariots are pulled by women) attached to the front as your power source; a perfect complement to the gorgeous chariot itself. Now maybe this supermodel has fallen slightly out of shape, but you could sign her up for Crossfit or kickboxing classes and get her back into supermodel form, where she's nicely toned and shrieks melodiously when in top shape.
But instead, you're gonna fire her because you're not quite sure you can handle a supermodel.... And bring in some homely corn-fed broad to take her place, who probably doesn't even have the same athletic potential to begin with... who's totally unrefined and looks like the fugly scanks that most of the low-life non-gladiators are hanging with, and grunts like a pig when exerting herself... All because you think she'll pull you pretty fast for cheaper.
I for one, prefer to get this hot b!tch in shape and have her sexy a$$ pulling my chariot around, as most self respecting gladiators would. We'll just sort of laugh and feel sorry for the dude that has some knuckle-dragging heffer grunting along in front of his otherwise decent chariot, while you ride along scratching your head and calling us "purists", lol...
You just don't get it!
12-02-2012, 05:44 AM
#209
Nordschleife Master
DanglerB, My price to you would be $20,000 for the specification you presented. Just like Renegade or anyone else in the business with a shop, equipment, employees, overhead, and taxes. And Good for them!!!! If you want Renegade to do all of the thinking and provide a complete package....then pay up and be happy!!! But, if you are mechanically inclined, enjoy the process, and like to exercise your "thinker", then there is a less expensive path to the same result.
After 5 or so years of looking and watching other peoples projects I think I have a good grasp of what works, and the bang for the buck is a Euro hybrid motor. Euro S intake and heads, US 5.0L 85/86 short block, with three added cost/hp options; hot rod cam, bore to 104mm, and stroker crank. Cams cost around $1k to have a pair rewelded and ground (upgraded lifters and springs another $1k), boring is around $2500 for machine work, used pistons, and mostly the custom rods, stroker cranks vary around $4k. End result with a good exhaust system varies between the options from a bit over 300 rwhp to a bit over 400 rwhp.
The question to ask is what is it worth to you to reach or exceed those power levels, and where do you plan to apply that kind of power? The base system will spin the wheels with street tires on most any public street in both first and second at full throttle, and have a top end close to 170 mph.
***
A big lesson for me was riding in a blown Mustang, uncontrollable wheel spin on street tire in all gears. It impressed me as a really stupid use of money.
12-02-2012, 05:59 AM
#210
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