Todays quandry.....HP vs Torque race 928 comparo
10-15-2011, 01:23 AM
#32
Not the sharpest tool in the shed
Rennlist Member
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TQ and HP are usually only talked about in term of peak numbers. So, you can have 2 cars with identical numbers, but the shapes of the curves can be vastly different, and one may have much higher over all average numbers also described as area under the curve. Frankly, I think the whole HP vs. TQ controversy is kinda dumb as both number are directly related to each other. One is calculated from the other. If one car has higher TQ in one part of the RPM range, its HP numbers have to be higher there too.
10-15-2011, 01:30 AM
#33
Rennlist Member
If a car has higher torque at a given RPM, by definition, it also has higher HP at that RPM. This isn't subjective and is what Bill was pointing out in that statement.
10-15-2011, 01:32 AM
#34
Rennlist Member
TQ and HP are usually only talked about in term of peak numbers. So, you can have 2 cars with identical numbers, but the shapes of the curves can be vastly different, and one may have much higher over all average numbers also described as area under the curve. Frankly, I think the whole HP vs. TQ controversy is kinda dumb as both number are directly related to each other. One is calculated from the other. If one car has higher TQ in one part of the RPM range, its HP numbers have to be higher there too.
10-15-2011, 01:32 AM
#35
Gezus guys,
The YELLOW one should be the fastest because there wasn't a BLUE one on the track. RED ones are the slowest of all.
The YELLOW one should be the fastest because there wasn't a BLUE one on the track. RED ones are the slowest of all.
10-15-2011, 01:37 AM
#36
Nordschleife Master
The whole argument shows a lack of clarity on what torque and horsepower are.
Some people are attracted to "power" because of its appeal. We all want power!
Looking at a dyno chart, however, it is the torque line that shows much more about an engine's performance, health and usefulness.
Some people are attracted to "power" because of its appeal. We all want power!
Looking at a dyno chart, however, it is the torque line that shows much more about an engine's performance, health and usefulness.
10-15-2011, 07:31 AM
#38
Nordschleife Master
Aha, we need a new TV show like PinkSlips, except its called DynoCharts. Each car is tested on a precision DynoJet, one contestant gets a torque chart and the other gets a HP chart and they argue about who would win on various imaginary tracks.
10-15-2011, 10:11 AM
#39
Racer
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I respectfully disagree. For those who think cars with superior torque is the advantage, we should all be racing diesels. Those hp/tq curves are nothing like a gasoline engine. How does hp/tq compare in electric powered cars? I think track layout also makes for various advantages for certain hp/tq biased vehicles.
Not really anything to argue about there... unless you are redefining the measurment of horsepower.... Kiborts perhaps??.....
10-15-2011, 11:27 AM
#40
Burning Brakes
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Look at a GT3 RS 4.0 being 2998lbs in weight 500hp
500 hp 8,250
Max. torque at rpm
339 lb.-ft. 5,750
Curb weight
2,998 lbs
997TT 500 hp
500hp@ rpm 6,000 - 6,500 rpm
Torque
480 lb.-ft. (with overboost 516 lb.-ft.)
@ rpm
1,950 - 5,000 rpm (with overboost 2,100 - 4,000 rpm)
997TT is 500lbs heavier and torque & hp comes in way earlier the car accelerates quicker
Getting both the HP and torque in the earlier RPM range is the most important if you have the traction like all AWD TT car.
They both have same HP but maximum torque is different!
I look at it as the cars are built for their use.
997TT High torque for heavier car AWD has the traction
GT3 RS 4.0 Lower torque needs less traction and needs the HP on top to pull.
500 hp 8,250
Max. torque at rpm
339 lb.-ft. 5,750
Curb weight
2,998 lbs
997TT 500 hp
500hp@ rpm 6,000 - 6,500 rpm
Torque
480 lb.-ft. (with overboost 516 lb.-ft.)
@ rpm
1,950 - 5,000 rpm (with overboost 2,100 - 4,000 rpm)
997TT is 500lbs heavier and torque & hp comes in way earlier the car accelerates quicker
Getting both the HP and torque in the earlier RPM range is the most important if you have the traction like all AWD TT car.
They both have same HP but maximum torque is different!
I look at it as the cars are built for their use.
997TT High torque for heavier car AWD has the traction
GT3 RS 4.0 Lower torque needs less traction and needs the HP on top to pull.
Last edited by inactiveuser1; 10-15-2011 at 06:28 PM.
10-16-2011, 02:50 PM
#43
Rennlist Member
You guys done yet?? Bill is dead on right here. HP is related to torque, its calcuated FROM toruqe. HP is a term that contains more information. If you have more "torque" at some part of an otherwise identical peak HP curve in a comparison it just means that you would have more HP! and as Brian mentioned, it goes back to Hp-seconds. the raw measure of work. (a unit measure of work) . The net forces at the rear wheels are created by torque (but we are talking TORQUE AT THE WHEELS, NOT AT THE ENGINE), we all know that, but when comparing two cars, if either one of the two cars hs more HP at any point on a track, (i.e. out of a turn, down a straight, etc) then it has more torque at the rear wheels. (i.e. rear wheel forces).
The entire marketing mish mash of "torque wins races, HP sells cars" is beyond stupid! HP is torque and more. its torque AT engine speed, and power is force at vehicle speed. all it does, since it incorporates another factor , is reduce the caculations when trying to determine/compare ANYTHING related to the performance of two cars.
I love the example of the two vehicles , one being a GT3RS vs a viper.
3.6 liter vs 8.2 liter. 540t/lbs vs 270ft/lbs, and near the same 500hp.
the ONLY difference is the shape of the HP curves. the viper is broader. its broader because it has more torque/hp at lower rpm. So, since the name of the game in ANY part of racing, is HP-seconds (applied over all partsof the track), you need both cars to be at Max HP for the longest time period.
SIMPLY, the porsche then just uses a close ratio gear box to match the vipers broad HP curve, and in the end, they will accelerate at all parts of the track, exactly the same all the time. (assuming all other things are the same)
Now, the cars are not the same, so the advantages might be in other areas, like driver, tire size, set up, geometry, etc. But I think you get the point.
>>>>>>>>>Originally Posted by Bill Ball TQ and HP are usually only talked about in term of peak numbers. So, you can have 2 cars with identical numbers, but the shapes of the curves can be vastly different, and one may have much higher over all average numbers also described as area under the curve. Frankly, I think the whole HP vs. TQ controversy is kinda dumb as both number are directly related to each other. One is calculated from the other. If one car has higher TQ in one part of the RPM range, its HP numbers have to be higher there too.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
The entire marketing mish mash of "torque wins races, HP sells cars" is beyond stupid! HP is torque and more. its torque AT engine speed, and power is force at vehicle speed. all it does, since it incorporates another factor , is reduce the caculations when trying to determine/compare ANYTHING related to the performance of two cars.
I love the example of the two vehicles , one being a GT3RS vs a viper.
3.6 liter vs 8.2 liter. 540t/lbs vs 270ft/lbs, and near the same 500hp.
the ONLY difference is the shape of the HP curves. the viper is broader. its broader because it has more torque/hp at lower rpm. So, since the name of the game in ANY part of racing, is HP-seconds (applied over all partsof the track), you need both cars to be at Max HP for the longest time period.
SIMPLY, the porsche then just uses a close ratio gear box to match the vipers broad HP curve, and in the end, they will accelerate at all parts of the track, exactly the same all the time. (assuming all other things are the same)
Now, the cars are not the same, so the advantages might be in other areas, like driver, tire size, set up, geometry, etc. But I think you get the point.
>>>>>>>>>Originally Posted by Bill Ball TQ and HP are usually only talked about in term of peak numbers. So, you can have 2 cars with identical numbers, but the shapes of the curves can be vastly different, and one may have much higher over all average numbers also described as area under the curve. Frankly, I think the whole HP vs. TQ controversy is kinda dumb as both number are directly related to each other. One is calculated from the other. If one car has higher TQ in one part of the RPM range, its HP numbers have to be higher there too.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
I respectfully disagree. For those who think cars with superior torque is the advantage, we should all be racing diesels. Those hp/tq curves are nothing like a gasoline engine. How does hp/tq compare in electric powered cars? I think track layout also makes for various advantages for certain hp/tq biased vehicles.
10-16-2011, 03:09 PM
#45
Rennlist Member
just use a different unit. . however, i know what you mean. what you are talking about is a broader HP curve. (not torque curve). traditionally, beafy torque engines with the same HP as another engine, are broader HP engines. they will put out more HP-seconds for each gear shift.you mean shorter gears?
I liked that discsussion too. the 3.09 on a GTS making an almost identical S4 2.2 gear box in the end! (except for a super low first gear, which would be useless unless on the drag strip with big drag slicks 
). I also liked all the testimonials of how the 3.09 was faster on the track. 
Its not a time element , its a vehicle speed (force) or engine speed, (torque). time gets into energy , or unit measures of work, (AKA HP-seconds)
To that point...it depends on the track.
The torque car will win an autox type course, where you dont need the HP end of the stick to go FASTER, you just need to get to point A to B quicker, before you fall out of the torque curve.
The HP car will win on long tracks, where SPEED makes up for coming out of a corner a little less lively...ya..dudes is 2 cars ahead of you leaving a corner, but you have 15mph on him halfway down the straight.
The torque car will win an autox type course, where you dont need the HP end of the stick to go FASTER, you just need to get to point A to B quicker, before you fall out of the torque curve.
The HP car will win on long tracks, where SPEED makes up for coming out of a corner a little less lively...ya..dudes is 2 cars ahead of you leaving a corner, but you have 15mph on him halfway down the straight.
The less gears you have, the fatter you want your torque curve to be because when you shift even at redline, the RPMs will drop a lot more. If a car had only one gear, the car's acceleration would exactly follow the engine's torque curve (assuming the tires stayed hooked up all the time).
Dan
'91 928GT S/C 475hp/460lb.ft
Dan
'91 928GT S/C
475hp/460lb.ft
