View Poll Results: Should checking the crankshaft end play be part of a PPI?
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 68. You may not vote on this poll
Poll: should a PPI include a check for Crankshaft End Play?
08-09-2011, 03:55 PM
#31
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Sure....just like all double disc clutch cars have grinding synchros because the transmissions are junk.....
Might as well not bother inspecting any possible leaks, since well know every 928 leaks something.
The radiators are crap, might as well ignore an overheating 928 during the PPI since that is also normal.
Mileage is irrelevant since most have broken speedo gears.
Bald tires? Who cares, I mean we all know every shop does the alignments wrong so why bother caring about that?
High idle? So what.....it's asinine to expect any 928 to have all vacuum lines and seals in good shape. So might as well skip that too.
Test compression? What a waste of time that is.
I'm glad you started this thread Greg. I'm seeing what a waste of mioney a PPI is. My next car purchase just got a bit cheaper.
Thanks Greg!!!!
Might as well not bother inspecting any possible leaks, since well know every 928 leaks something.
The radiators are crap, might as well ignore an overheating 928 during the PPI since that is also normal.
Mileage is irrelevant since most have broken speedo gears.
Bald tires? Who cares, I mean we all know every shop does the alignments wrong so why bother caring about that?
High idle? So what.....it's asinine to expect any 928 to have all vacuum lines and seals in good shape. So might as well skip that too.
Test compression? What a waste of time that is.
I'm glad you started this thread Greg. I'm seeing what a waste of mioney a PPI is. My next car purchase just got a bit cheaper.
Thanks Greg!!!!
It sounds like the person who made the comment about the thrust bearing failures in the GTS cars has found a lot of them. You guys better hurry up and get over there before the impending disaster strikes. I'm guessing that he'd be happy to rebuild, replace, or inspect all of those engines that are obviously flawed... for a price.
08-09-2011, 04:39 PM
#32
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^^ Not seeing the point through the sarcasm.
Its a known failure mode.
A seller has the obligation to know its status.
Buyer should be encouraged to check for it.
A shop should insist on the check or have a waiver signed in my opinion.
If its out of spec, then the unit needs to be stabilized (patched with clamp) and disclosed, or repaired and disclosed, or left as-is and disclosed.
That's really all there is to it. Any deviation from that is an ethical breech.
Its a known failure mode.
A seller has the obligation to know its status.
Buyer should be encouraged to check for it.
A shop should insist on the check or have a waiver signed in my opinion.
If its out of spec, then the unit needs to be stabilized (patched with clamp) and disclosed, or repaired and disclosed, or left as-is and disclosed.
That's really all there is to it. Any deviation from that is an ethical breech.
08-09-2011, 05:10 PM
#33
^^ Not seeing the point through the sarcasm.
Its a known failure mode.
A seller has the obligation to know its status.
Buyer should be encouraged to check for it.
A shop should insist on the check or have a waiver signed in my opinion.
If its out of spec, then the unit needs to be stabilized (patched with clamp) and disclosed, or repaired and disclosed, or left as-is and disclosed.
That's really all there is to it. Any deviation from that is an ethical breech.
Its a known failure mode.
A seller has the obligation to know its status.
Buyer should be encouraged to check for it.
A shop should insist on the check or have a waiver signed in my opinion.
If its out of spec, then the unit needs to be stabilized (patched with clamp) and disclosed, or repaired and disclosed, or left as-is and disclosed.
That's really all there is to it. Any deviation from that is an ethical breech.
Sorry, not seeing it that way.
08-09-2011, 05:14 PM
#34
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I asked a shop I consider to be to trustworthy to add on the cost for checking endplay.
Answer: "That's 3 hours extra work" - came out to almost the same Sean charges for a whole PPI. Cost for a full PPI close to $600
I didn't bother in the end but knew it meant a looking for another engine if I got it wrong. Worked out for me but wouldn't recommend to anyone else who wants to buy to drive and not to spend the rest of their life under and in it.
Answer: "That's 3 hours extra work" - came out to almost the same Sean charges for a whole PPI. Cost for a full PPI close to $600
I didn't bother in the end but knew it meant a looking for another engine if I got it wrong. Worked out for me but wouldn't recommend to anyone else who wants to buy to drive and not to spend the rest of their life under and in it.
Last edited by oaros; 08-09-2011 at 05:21 PM. Reason: correction
08-09-2011, 05:19 PM
#35
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TBF is terminal. Complete loss of value of the vehicle, or close.
And it can be hidden if its recognized and stabilized.
Yes, your process for offering the service, with the upcharge, makes very good sense.
Potential buyer makes a choice.
Only dilemma is if you know the answer to be "out of spec" (from prior work), and don't disclose it.
08-09-2011, 05:21 PM
#36
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We check every single automatic that we do a PPI on....I assume that anyone that knows that the problem exists would check the endplay, also.
Hell, if you do nothing else, that should be the one thing that you do have checked.
Hell, if you do nothing else, that should be the one thing that you do have checked.
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greg brown
714 879 9072
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Semi-retired, as of Feb 1, 2023.
The days of free technical advice are over.
Free consultations will no longer be available.
Will still be in the shop, isolated and exclusively working on project cars, developmental work and products, engines and transmissions.
Have fun with your 928's people!
greg brown
714 879 9072
GregBBRD@aol.com
Semi-retired, as of Feb 1, 2023.
The days of free technical advice are over.
Free consultations will no longer be available.
Will still be in the shop, isolated and exclusively working on project cars, developmental work and products, engines and transmissions.
Have fun with your 928's people!
08-09-2011, 05:39 PM
#37
It becomes a risk to the mechanic too...if you only charge $325 for the full check including endplay..what happens with that east coast car..rusty header bolts/nuts, breaking the belly pan when you take it off..... lots of extra time/money for a car that may or may not be purchased...
Tough call though.....statistically..how many auto 87 and up S4's have had a thrust bearing failure to date.. ? 1%... 0.5 %... feeling lucky?
Tough call though.....statistically..how many auto 87 and up S4's have had a thrust bearing failure to date.. ? 1%... 0.5 %... feeling lucky?
08-09-2011, 05:44 PM
#38
Also... In looking at two auto 928's with thrust bearing failure.... one thing was common to both... I could smell it a mile away.... The oil from both had the most obnoxious burned oil smell ...likely due to the oil getting destroyed by the heat generated by the thrust surface being stressed... You'd know it if you smelled it....
maybe first line of attack is oil filter/smell check..? then move on to the end play as the next step
maybe first line of attack is oil filter/smell check..? then move on to the end play as the next step
08-09-2011, 05:47 PM
#39
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It becomes a risk to the mechanic too...if you only charge $325 for the full check including endplay..what happens with that east coast car..rusty header bolts/nuts, breaking the belly pan when you take it off..... lots of extra time/money for a car that may or may not be purchased...
Tough call though.....statistically..how many auto 87 and up S4's have had a thrust bearing failure to date.. ? 1%... 0.5 %... feeling lucky?
Tough call though.....statistically..how many auto 87 and up S4's have had a thrust bearing failure to date.. ? 1%... 0.5 %... feeling lucky?
If you can smell them they have all ready turned the bearing.
08-09-2011, 05:59 PM
#40
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I pretty much expect to find over limit wear on any S4 that has over 100,000 on it, and so far about half of the ones I have checked were over the limit.
08-09-2011, 06:02 PM
#41
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I didn't vote. What kind of pie?
08-09-2011, 06:04 PM
#42
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I was having a short discussion with a well known 928 person who can chime in if they want.
Any way, he said that checking the end play was not something that a normal PPI would cover and that it was as normal for a GTS to have thrust bearing failure as it is for a GTS to use oil.
We are talking about a car with less than 50,000 miles on it that had excessive end play, .005 over the wear limit .
I actually was stunned that this person would say that.
I am pretty sure what the poll will indicate, but i wanted to make sure, so vote if you would. (if I can figure out how to do a poll)
Any way, he said that checking the end play was not something that a normal PPI would cover and that it was as normal for a GTS to have thrust bearing failure as it is for a GTS to use oil.
We are talking about a car with less than 50,000 miles on it that had excessive end play, .005 over the wear limit .
I actually was stunned that this person would say that.
I am pretty sure what the poll will indicate, but i wanted to make sure, so vote if you would. (if I can figure out how to do a poll)
08-09-2011, 06:06 PM
#44
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You're never going to get any kind of accurate answer to that, especially here or in any other online forum. Out of all of the 928 engines that I've seen apart or checked the crank end play on, only one had any significant wear on the thrust bearing. That was on an all stock and original, fairly low mile, very clean, 5-speed car.
I didn't vote. What kind of pie?
I didn't vote. What kind of pie?
