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Your racing arguments apply to a minimal number of car buyers. For the rest, you may as well argue that a bus is inferior transportation because it can't win against a Formula One car on the track.
Whoa there Nicole; you just changed the goal posts.
You asked me to drive an EV. I've driven one (my Mom's BTW) and was soundly underimpressed. But then I mentioned the endurance problem? So, it's there. I race cars. I own a 1985 928 I used to run on the track and a 1989 944 S2 I'm preparing for the track. Is there an EV I should be looking at to replace either or both? That's the playing field.
No, I won't be buying an EV soon. They don't meet my needs. They either melt or burst into flame when I try using them exactly the same way I use my evil ICE cars.
PS: My cousin asked, if I was interested to convert my 928 into an EV...
PS: I can only hope you said yes! Well, maybe. You don't have a late model manual GTR do you? Otherwise, go for it! You have nothing to lose but whatever you have to lose itself (fear, anxiety, 3 lbs. off the hips, that nasty mole under your left ear, an extra chin, etc.)
PPS: You do understand you're signed into a discussion forum dedicated to very high performance endurance racing cars? You just might have walked into the wrong room.
Is a debate over EV's appropriate here? Yes. They are profoundly changing the game. As I suggested above, once you've driven one, all ICE cars will seem vintage. We like vintage cars here, so EVs will broaden our opportunities! The price of a nice SL65 will be dropping. Gasoline prices will remain low, too.
With respect to owning an EV, the phrase "meet my needs" is important. For example, an EV may not make sense to someone with only one car who cannot charge at home. For someone or a couple with two cars kept in a warm garage, one EV probably makes a lot of sense. Home charging is a big deal - every morning you drive off with a full tank. In our case, a free tank since we have a 16kW PV system. This time of year it's especially nice not to have to stand outside at a pump, shivering, back to the wind. Will I be standing outside plugging in at a charging station? Just a few times a year, carefully chosen.
I have a friend with traditionalist (luddite) tendencies. He makes up a lot of reasons that EV's are bad. The brakes wear down quickly because the cars are so heavy (regenerative braking actually means you hardly touch the real brakes). He's told me I'll get brain cancer from the electrical fields (remember the cell phone scares?). They randomly burst into flames (occasionally, but not as often as gasoline cars - no injector clips!). It's just a silly fad (in terms of revenue, Tesla is now the #1 seller of cars in the US - it's no joke). EVs are not visceral (true, but you can whoosh! beat some punk in a Subaru WRX across an intersection before he's got his clutch engaged). Elon Musk is a lunatic (yes, but a lunatic engineer).
Someone is probably already at work transplanting a Tesla drive unit into the back of a 928. I've taken a look - remove the gas tank and the muffler, relocate the 12V battery, and it should slip right in with the half-shaft attachment points in the right spot. Some subframe cutting and welding might be required. People have already hacked the Tesla control software. It's being done so often that wrecked Teslas are not cheap, though.
Your racing arguments apply to a minimal number of car buyers. For the rest, you may as well argue that a bus is inferior transportation because it can't win against a Formula One car on the track.
I can tell you that in the US I have never experienced any power reduction in my Tesla. I plan to take my cousin's Roadster and either his S or X on the Autobahn sometime next year, so I can actually feel it. Other than in Germany, no normal driver will ever be impacted by hot batteries or electronics.
Now, EV manufacturers could limit power all the time to avoid getting into these types of situations. But that would limit the fun for most, for the benefit of very few.
PS: My cousin asked, if I was interested to convert my 928 into an EV...
Nicole,
My first drive in a Tesla was over five years ago and I knew immediately that the ICE cars were doomed to extinction like the horse and buggy. The Tesla was smooth, silent and the linear torque curve truly wowed me. Now, after having driven a bunch of EV's (including a P100 S in ludicrous mode) I simply can't wait for the next generation of automobiles.
I stand by my statement that the vast majority of us will be buying/driving EV's in the next 5-10 years. We will be able to discuss that evolution here in this forum and on this very thread, because even though I'll be driving an EV for daily use on the streets, a select few 928's will be meticulously maintained and kept beautiful in my collection of toys.
When I put the 570 hp Turbo S in Sport Plus Mode these days and it screams to life and snaps and pops between shifts I already appreciate its stunning performance with an element of nostalgia.
As for the racer boys/girls of the world, despite their protestations, racing is where the real evolution is occurring in EV technology:
Porsche has been so successful with their Hybrid racing technologies (think 919) that they are changing their entire business model from ICE to EV... Porsche is NOT investing $6 billion Euros inrace cars... Porsche IS investing $6 billion Euros in electric mobility for the street because that is where Porsche sees the future of road based transportation heading.
Racing will change! Racing will have to evolve and I do not know how race fans are going to react to a sport where the loud, visceral sensations and smells of burning hydrocarbons are replaced with the sounds of airflow, electric motor/drivetrain whine and perhaps the smell of ozone?
Automobiles are entering an entirely new stage in their evolution and I'm getting excited to experience the change...
That DB9 might make it into the "next car" space in the garage, or: I might skip a replacement cycle and wait for the wild cars that Porsche will be building in 2022!
"I stand by my statement that the vast majority of us will be buying/driving EV's in the next 5-10 years. "
I made a similar prediction about navigation systems back in 1981 when Etak went public. One of the guys I worked with jumped ship and went to work there. We had a coffee pot discussion on how long it would take for car nav systems to become common and I put a $20 bet on 10 years. That would be like a $200 bet in 2018 dollars. I bet that by 1991, "in car" nav systems would be standard on all major rental cars. Hertz, Avis, etc. Boy was I wrong.
I lost of course. Unfortunately I still knew they guy I made the bet with 10 years later. I still know him now. The problem is the technology curve only follows the adoption curve after the technology is adopted. They aren't the same thing.
When a real electric car (not a "hybrid") takes Le Mans, the Daytona 500, something along those lines, my guess is a debate over EV's won't just be appropriate, it will be necessary.
What are we waiting for? Why not talk about all the things wrong with EVs now and avoid the rush? We could be way ahead of the game. What's to lose? Start trash talking EVs now!
When a real electric car (not a "hybrid") takes Le Mans, the Daytona 500, something along those lines, my guess is a debate over EV's won't just be appropriate, it will be necessary.
What are we waiting for? Why not talk about all the things wrong with EVs now and avoid the rush? We could be way ahead of the game. What's to lose? Start trash talking EVs now!
Otto,
This thread is about cars we are thinking about or planning on buying. I doubt that any Rennlist participant is considering purchasing a racecar that wins at LeMans or Daytona. Waiting for an all electric car to win LeMans to delay debating the mass marketability/acceptance of EV's is like waiting for man to land on the moon as a prerequisite to consider Space flight.
I am high on the list at my Porsche dealer for a MissionE/Taycan, and although my excitement is waining because of the published photos of the test mules, I remain hopeful that the car will retain enough of the aesthetic of the concept car to complete the purchase...
What do you think of Porsches shift in racing focus to Formula E?
I have no interest in owning an electric vehicle or hybrid. None. Also, What are their legitimate cradle to grave environmental costs, in actuality?
I'm going to specifically address carbon because that is the single most pressing environmental factor right now (and for the next few decades). There are other things involved in producing batteries that are environmentally dangerous, but those are localized concerns, not global.
Let's say that it costs, on average, the exact same amount of carbon over the lifetime of a car to produce and drive an electric car as it does a gasoline car of the same size. The biggest difference between the two is obviously the battery, so producing the battery produces the biggest carbon footprint. For this exercise we're saying that the carbon cost of producing and powering the battery is identical to the carbon cost of burning gasoline for the same number of miles driven (There's no way that's the case, but okay.).
The point is that even a tiny incremental improvement in battery production technology immediately improves the carbon footprint for every car produced from that point forward. That's also true for every incremental change in battery efficiency, where my battery stores and delivers power more efficiently for a longer time for the same production cost. It's like every car produced going from carburetion to fuel injection in a single model year. And even better: As more and more electricity is produced with renewables, every electric car becomes more efficient. Not just every new electric car, but every electric car. Imaging if someone waved a magic wand and all your cars instantly got 10% better gas mileage. Having that battery in common is a huge advantage to electrics over IC.
I can't imaging not owning a 928. I just love them too much.
However, I can imagine owning one with a motor swap. I'm a couple years from retiring, which will give me more time to travel, and I like to drive. That's what the 928 was meant to do: cross-continental touring. However, even if I did a full engine bay and drive line tear-down and rebuild, I don't want to rely upon 40 year-old fuel injection electronics. I'm not wedded to V8s; modern V6s produce plenty of smooth power. But the LS road is well defined and the motors (and their electronics!) are widely available, completely modern, and rock solid.
So, yeah, a nice pre-86 with a motor swap? I could see driving that until I need to be buried in it.
Unless someone has figured out how to retrofit modern off-the-shelf engine electronics to early 928s?
However, I can imagine owning one with a motor swap. I'm a couple years from retiring, which will give me more time to travel, and I like to drive. That's what the 928 was meant to do: cross-continental touring. However, even if I did a full engine bay and drive line tear-down and rebuild, I don't want to rely upon 40 year-old fuel injection electronics. I'm not wedded to V8s; modern V6s produce plenty of smooth power. But the LS road is well defined and the motors (and their electronics!) are widely available, completely modern, and rock solid.
absolutely agree! the early 928, in it's simplest form, is a gorgeous design and one of my all-time favorites. i wish all the time i had my euro '78 5spd back in the garage. that said, the idea of a transplant comes to mind just about as often as the 928 itself does. if you can take that design, that experience, make it more dependable, faster, and easier to maintain, that's not a bad option. i will own another 928.
to the original question - what's a good replacement to the 928 - i have to say that i view my '13 panamera turbo as pretty much a 4-dr 928. if you go back to some of the original 4-dr 928 concepts, the first-gen Pan isn't far off. i wasn't a fan initially, but if you want a fast 4-seater, porsche dynamics, and a great driver's car, the Pan is hard to beat. the fact that both my 928 and Pan were/are white just helps the comparison. the panamera makes total sense to me as a progression from the 928.
I am high on the list at my Porsche dealer for a MissionE/Taycan, and although my excitement is waining because of the published photos of the test mules, I remain hopeful that the car will retain enough of the aesthetic of the concept car to complete the purchase...
And this was my earlier point. Regardless of any car technology and its environmental impact, I maintain that is the external aesthetics of a 'sports' car that will drive its success in the market place. Think about Hyundai and Kia. Its no coincidence that their sales went through the ceiling once they started producing good looking vehicles.
Sure the Model S is attractive (not so much the Model 3 IMO) but it is also really the only viable 4 door all electric sport sedan on the market. It will be interesting to see in 5-10 years when the big OEMs start producing legitimate competitors where Tesla stands. My guess is the best looking offerings will have the highest sales.
Sure the Model S is attractive (not so much the Model 3 IMO) but it is also really the only viable 4 door all electric sport sedan on the market. It will be interesting to see in 5-10 years when the big OEMs start producing legitimate competitors where Tesla stands. My guess is the best looking offerings will have the highest sales.
'form' and aesthetics will never go out of style. packaging is one of the most important aspects of any product - whether it's the cardboard box that carries cereal or the body of a car. an overwhelming amount of people care what something looks like as much as the functionality. i agree that the Model3 is a bit bland and that the 'best designed' (most appealing) examples will be your big sellers moving forward - assuming capabilities are on par.
My guess is the best looking offerings will have the highest sales.
When it comes to EVs, the car itself is only parrt of the bigger picture. The Tesla is by no means perfect - it has its quirks, but it is now, and will be for years, the only EV that allows easy long distance travel, thanks to the Supercharger network. There is nothing comparable for other EVs, and it will take years to build it. You may end-up with a prettier, better made car than a Tesla, but you won't be able to use it like a Tesla for a few more years.
Add the free over-the-air software updates, which make the cars better every few weeks, and the out-of-this-world service (At least based on my experience), and you have a combination that weighs higher than pretty looks. For most consumers, at least.
We do have to differentiate between continents, though. I have a feeling that certain European and Asian countries will accelerate building their charging networks with the help of local governments. In those cases, Tesla may not have as much of an advantage as they have in the US.
12-04-2018, 02:24 AM
Well, maybe. You don't have a late model manual GTR do you? Otherwise, go for it! You have nothing to lose but whatever you have to lose itself (fear, anxiety, 3 lbs. off the hips, that nasty mole under your left ear, an extra chin, etc.)
