Boost vs A/F
03-26-2011, 09:38 AM
#61
Race Car
Thread Starter
OK, set the FP to 39 cold; when I set it yesterday it was at 39 but the motor was warm "PK never thought the pressure would change that much when warm" but it showed 41 when tested this morning.
At idle 30 Lb's and the A/F is at 14.7 or so. When I connected B&C did some CCW adjustments I got it to 12.1 then fans kicked on and idle went all over the place.
Now at idle it still sits at 14.7 with B&C not connected should I keep adjusting or leave it alone?
At idle 30 Lb's and the A/F is at 14.7 or so. When I connected B&C did some CCW adjustments I got it to 12.1 then fans kicked on and idle went all over the place.
Now at idle it still sits at 14.7 with B&C not connected should I keep adjusting or leave it alone?
03-26-2011, 10:49 AM
#63
Race Car
Thread Starter
I just smoked it and it is pouring out of the front air box on the S/C. This should not effect anything but has anyone else seen this and if so is there a way to seal this. Seems unfiltered air will enter here or maybe the cause of surging I am not sure at this point.
03-26-2011, 02:25 PM
#64
Inventor
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Check MAF volts at idle (2.7ish)
Check for gas at each damper's vacuum line.
Swap the MAF from your '85, see what happens.
Check each terminal of the Temp II sensor to ground. (~100-300 hot, ~1000 cold)
Huh?
Check for gas at each damper's vacuum line.
Swap the MAF from your '85, see what happens.
Check each terminal of the Temp II sensor to ground. (~100-300 hot, ~1000 cold)
Huh?
03-26-2011, 03:34 PM
#65
Race Car
Thread Starter
Maf 2.48-2.52 Volts
No gas in Dampeners
Temp II new and checks Ok
It is a pain to change the Maf: I will try that less since the Maf voltage is lower then 2.7 Volts.
I did discover a small vacuum leak it seems to be coming from the TPS switch but even with mirrors I can not pin point it. I read that the TB bushings could cause this so I will order a set.
Since I can't see crap to pin point this leak I need suggestions with the intake removed finding a way to block the Intake holes and possibly the injector holes to smoke test this. Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated!
No gas in Dampeners
Temp II new and checks Ok
It is a pain to change the Maf: I will try that less since the Maf voltage is lower then 2.7 Volts.
I did discover a small vacuum leak it seems to be coming from the TPS switch but even with mirrors I can not pin point it. I read that the TB bushings could cause this so I will order a set.
Since I can't see crap to pin point this leak I need suggestions with the intake removed finding a way to block the Intake holes and possibly the injector holes to smoke test this. Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated!
03-26-2011, 04:34 PM
#66
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I just smoked it and it is pouring out of the front air box on the S/C. This should not effect anything but has anyone else seen this and if so is there a way to seal this. Seems unfiltered air will enter here or maybe the cause of surging I am not sure at this point.
03-27-2011, 11:30 AM
#69
Race Car
Thread Starter
Up Date:
I used the newly rebuilt Modified Maf that is back to factory set-up with out adjustment screws.
I did a Data log with out S/C hooked up started fine, warmed up fine A/F perfect 14.3 Voltage 2.4 Volts not 2.7
I jumped B&C and the A/F went to 12.3 which makes sense I have a leak somewhere buried in the intake possibly the Tps switch. The idle stabilized and car ran good except for the rich reading.
Car warm added John Speaks Maf it ran showing A/F high 13's A/F Voltage 2.52 not 2.7.
I jumped B&C and the A/F went crazy jumped all over the place then car died.
Can I say I have a bad JS MAF?
I used the newly rebuilt Modified Maf that is back to factory set-up with out adjustment screws.
I did a Data log with out S/C hooked up started fine, warmed up fine A/F perfect 14.3 Voltage 2.4 Volts not 2.7
I jumped B&C and the A/F went to 12.3 which makes sense I have a leak somewhere buried in the intake possibly the Tps switch. The idle stabilized and car ran good except for the rich reading.
Car warm added John Speaks Maf it ran showing A/F high 13's A/F Voltage 2.52 not 2.7.
I jumped B&C and the A/F went crazy jumped all over the place then car died.
Can I say I have a bad JS MAF?
03-27-2011, 01:41 PM
#70
Race Car
Thread Starter
Tracking down my Vacuum Leak:
Removed the TB I sealed it and smoke tested it seems to be coming from the Tps switch . I am in the process of sealing it but on the drivers side I am getting a little leak form the throttle shaft. I seems to remember these never seal completely any one have feed back on this?
Any feed back on the JS Maf?
Removed the TB I sealed it and smoke tested it seems to be coming from the Tps switch . I am in the process of sealing it but on the drivers side I am getting a little leak form the throttle shaft. I seems to remember these never seal completely any one have feed back on this?
Any feed back on the JS Maf?
03-28-2011, 09:48 PM
#71
Race Car
Thread Starter
Anyone willing to look at my Log works Data file? If so please Pm me or chime in Andrew Olsen has a copy but a few more eyes would not hurt.
I created this log today before sending out the Maf for repair. I made sure all the vacuum leaks are taken care of, I have a new ICV and Temp II sensor.
The Inj labs AF shows everything spot on while in my garage warmed up. The JS AF shows a rich condition.
I ran two sets of tests test 5 Diagnostic port B&C jumped did the same thing on both Mafs almost stalling even tried adjusting the idle but it will not remain stable.
Test 6 is with the Ox sen disconnected it went rich but did not stall.
Porken advised me to do these tests but something must still be wrong and I a running out of idears.
The S/C is disconnected and blowing into the air not at the Maf. Speaks did this crazy running last night but both Maf's did this when B&C shorted.
I can only see JS is richer then Inj labs both are set for 382 Ohms.
I created this log today before sending out the Maf for repair. I made sure all the vacuum leaks are taken care of, I have a new ICV and Temp II sensor.
The Inj labs AF shows everything spot on while in my garage warmed up. The JS AF shows a rich condition.
I ran two sets of tests test 5 Diagnostic port B&C jumped did the same thing on both Mafs almost stalling even tried adjusting the idle but it will not remain stable.
Test 6 is with the Ox sen disconnected it went rich but did not stall.
Porken advised me to do these tests but something must still be wrong and I a running out of idears.
The S/C is disconnected and blowing into the air not at the Maf. Speaks did this crazy running last night but both Maf's did this when B&C shorted.
I can only see JS is richer then Inj labs both are set for 382 Ohms.
03-28-2011, 11:10 PM
#72
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Tracking down my Vacuum Leak:
Removed the TB I sealed it and smoke tested it seems to be coming from the Tps switch . I am in the process of sealing it but on the drivers side I am getting a little leak form the throttle shaft. I seems to remember these never seal completely any one have feed back on this?
Any feed back on the JS Maf?
Removed the TB I sealed it and smoke tested it seems to be coming from the Tps switch . I am in the process of sealing it but on the drivers side I am getting a little leak form the throttle shaft. I seems to remember these never seal completely any one have feed back on this?
Any feed back on the JS Maf?
A little leaking from the TPS, throttle plate bearings, or other "small" leak will not make much difference in the running/idle of the engine.
The syntax of some of your posts make them very hard to follow, it would be a big help if you would go back and edit accordingly.
I suggest you go back and read everything that Porken has contributed because it is not clear, at least to me, that you have been following his advice/direction.
Just my opinion of course.
Last edited by Tim Murphy; 03-28-2011 at 11:44 PM.
03-29-2011, 11:05 AM
#73
Race Car
Thread Starter
Ok; I agree with it is hard to follow my thread with out reading all of it if you just jumped in. This is more of a, I am finding this issue and documenting what was found and what I am doing to diagnosis it and my results and asking for help along the way. I have a Log Works Data Logger that allows me to see every change and how it effects my car. The big picture is I am trying to get my car to run consistently, stable and enjoy my S/C. I decided after doing some fan sensor and radiator work to remove my Maf from under the fender and place it back in the stock location after loosing 2Lb' of boost and concerns about water on the Maf.
Symptoms:
My idle was over 950 Rpm's and was having cold start stability issues "idle going up and down" when cold. I thought I was having a Maf issue which was sent off for repair it was off by 20 M-volts when tested.
I sent the adjustable Maf back to have it checked and placed back to factory specification. I used the rebuilt John Speak Maf for my testing and still had issues after moving my Maf back to the stock location "injectors were cutting out like key was being turned off", while driving and idle high AO caught this.
I moved my Maf to it's stock location and recorded that my A/F rations were not correct and still was was getting a FI cut out while under partial load. Feedback from forum pointed to Temp II, fuel in dampeners or air leak issues and correct Maf voltage at idle. I checked the Temp II, fuel in dampeners and leaks all were tested good except I could never achieve 2.7v at idle still shows 2.50 or so, on either Maf. The "air box was not installed" which may have contributed to the low voltage due to Fmu in way, the S/C disconnected and running up into the air as to not blow air on the open Maf.
I adjusted my fuel pressure down from 41 to 39 to get rid of the rich at start up issue but Rpm's still did not drop and cut out and shudder was still apparent.
It was confirmed by AO looking at my Data logging is that my injectors were cutting out
At this point I got into the intake to see why my injectors were cutting out. I checked and rechecked all the grounds. During this process I found my Acv not functioning and doing my research that the 12-Volts that controls the ACV also powered the passenger side injector bank, thinking this maybe loading my injector voltage down. I replaced the ACV and all injector connectors to eliminate the possibility of injector shorting issues. What I found was the Acv was stuck in the 20% open postilion one injector had corrosion on the pins and another after opening the boot wire could be pulled out from pin.
Still with me?
After all these repairs were done and intake back together I stated my data logging again. I did everything Porken suggested set the C.O. pot to 382 shorting B&C diagnostic pins then trying disconnection the NB Ox sensor. I could not adjust the idle with B&C shorted the idle and A/F would jump all over the place and car would stall. With just the NB disconnected it would go rich but not stall. I tried this with both Maf's to see if I had a problem with one. Both Maf's had the same symptoms the only way to get the A/F ratios in line was to adjust the CO pot down to 295 Ohms. When I put everything back together the car had a hard time getting a stable idle hunting when getting off the gas with this low co setting 295 Ohms.
Feedback all indicated the other S/C cars did not require the Co pot adjustment and I still have something going on.
I smoke tested and found a good size leak off of the TB Tps switch enough in my opinion that it would cause a rich condition. My conclusion is that when B&C was shorted the Lh could not compensate for this leak causing my Rmp's and A/f to go crazy when in this test mode. I went back into the intake removed the TB and sealed it and did another smoke test. It has no leaks anywhere on the intake "except, see last paragraph".
With everything done, checked and sealed I did a data log yesterday with Inj labs Maf, started great, warmed up with A/f all good and at idle when warm 14.2 at 700 Rpm's, seems like I am done "right". Well I did the B&C bypass to base line my idle and Rpm's and A/F went crazy car eventually stalled. I disconnected the Ox NB car ran OK but was rich 11.38 A/F.
This brings me to my last step.
I data logged both Maf's JS and Inj lab's under the same conditions and same 382 ohms Co setting.
Inj lab's
14.28 A/F
Maf 2.48 Volts
700 Rpm's
JS
12.76 A/F
Maf 2.48 Volts
720 Rpm's
I can see that I could adjust the Co pot on the JS Maf but wanted to make sure I compare apples to apples before playing with any adjustment.
So it all comes back to the testing procedure, with B&C connected same Rpm and A/F fluctuations. 9.95-15.05 A/F 950-400 Rpm's.
With just the ox NB disconnected the car ran OK but the A/F went to 11.38 and stayed there.
So make this clear as mud, when I do my testing car goes nuts when left alone it looks good. So am I masking a problem that becomes apparent in the test mode, if so I don't know where else to look. That is the synopses of my thread I hope I made it clear, that is why I offered my logs for anyone to review it would be very apparent once they were reviewed!
Tim this applies to you:
One variable when I smoke tested yesterday I observed my test smoke was pouring out of the hose I use on the crank case breather that exits under my car
Could this be the issue I am running out of options; why I can't put this car in test mode.
Now waiting on the rest of the story!
Symptoms:
My idle was over 950 Rpm's and was having cold start stability issues "idle going up and down" when cold. I thought I was having a Maf issue which was sent off for repair it was off by 20 M-volts when tested.
I sent the adjustable Maf back to have it checked and placed back to factory specification. I used the rebuilt John Speak Maf for my testing and still had issues after moving my Maf back to the stock location "injectors were cutting out like key was being turned off", while driving and idle high AO caught this.
I moved my Maf to it's stock location and recorded that my A/F rations were not correct and still was was getting a FI cut out while under partial load. Feedback from forum pointed to Temp II, fuel in dampeners or air leak issues and correct Maf voltage at idle. I checked the Temp II, fuel in dampeners and leaks all were tested good except I could never achieve 2.7v at idle still shows 2.50 or so, on either Maf. The "air box was not installed" which may have contributed to the low voltage due to Fmu in way, the S/C disconnected and running up into the air as to not blow air on the open Maf.
I adjusted my fuel pressure down from 41 to 39 to get rid of the rich at start up issue but Rpm's still did not drop and cut out and shudder was still apparent.
It was confirmed by AO looking at my Data logging is that my injectors were cutting out
At this point I got into the intake to see why my injectors were cutting out. I checked and rechecked all the grounds. During this process I found my Acv not functioning and doing my research that the 12-Volts that controls the ACV also powered the passenger side injector bank, thinking this maybe loading my injector voltage down. I replaced the ACV and all injector connectors to eliminate the possibility of injector shorting issues. What I found was the Acv was stuck in the 20% open postilion one injector had corrosion on the pins and another after opening the boot wire could be pulled out from pin.
Still with me?
After all these repairs were done and intake back together I stated my data logging again. I did everything Porken suggested set the C.O. pot to 382 shorting B&C diagnostic pins then trying disconnection the NB Ox sensor. I could not adjust the idle with B&C shorted the idle and A/F would jump all over the place and car would stall. With just the NB disconnected it would go rich but not stall. I tried this with both Maf's to see if I had a problem with one. Both Maf's had the same symptoms the only way to get the A/F ratios in line was to adjust the CO pot down to 295 Ohms. When I put everything back together the car had a hard time getting a stable idle hunting when getting off the gas with this low co setting 295 Ohms.
Feedback all indicated the other S/C cars did not require the Co pot adjustment and I still have something going on.
I smoke tested and found a good size leak off of the TB Tps switch enough in my opinion that it would cause a rich condition. My conclusion is that when B&C was shorted the Lh could not compensate for this leak causing my Rmp's and A/f to go crazy when in this test mode. I went back into the intake removed the TB and sealed it and did another smoke test. It has no leaks anywhere on the intake "except, see last paragraph".
With everything done, checked and sealed I did a data log yesterday with Inj labs Maf, started great, warmed up with A/f all good and at idle when warm 14.2 at 700 Rpm's, seems like I am done "right". Well I did the B&C bypass to base line my idle and Rpm's and A/F went crazy car eventually stalled. I disconnected the Ox NB car ran OK but was rich 11.38 A/F.
This brings me to my last step.
I data logged both Maf's JS and Inj lab's under the same conditions and same 382 ohms Co setting.
Inj lab's
14.28 A/F
Maf 2.48 Volts
700 Rpm's
JS
12.76 A/F
Maf 2.48 Volts
720 Rpm's
I can see that I could adjust the Co pot on the JS Maf but wanted to make sure I compare apples to apples before playing with any adjustment.
So it all comes back to the testing procedure, with B&C connected same Rpm and A/F fluctuations. 9.95-15.05 A/F 950-400 Rpm's.
With just the ox NB disconnected the car ran OK but the A/F went to 11.38 and stayed there.
So make this clear as mud, when I do my testing car goes nuts when left alone it looks good. So am I masking a problem that becomes apparent in the test mode, if so I don't know where else to look. That is the synopses of my thread I hope I made it clear, that is why I offered my logs for anyone to review it would be very apparent once they were reviewed!
Tim this applies to you:
One variable when I smoke tested yesterday I observed my test smoke was pouring out of the hose I use on the crank case breather that exits under my car
Could this be the issue I am running out of options; why I can't put this car in test mode.
Now waiting on the rest of the story!
03-29-2011, 11:47 AM
#74
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Anyone willing to look at my Log works Data file? If so please Pm me or chime in Andrew Olsen has a copy but a few more eyes would not hurt.
I created this log today before sending out the Maf for repair. I made sure all the vacuum leaks are taken care of, I have a new ICV and Temp II sensor.
The Inj labs AF shows everything spot on while in my garage warmed up. The JS AF shows a rich condition.
I ran two sets of tests test 5 Diagnostic port B&C jumped did the same thing on both Mafs almost stalling even tried adjusting the idle but it will not remain stable.
Test 6 is with the Ox sen disconnected it went rich but did not stall.
Porken advised me to do these tests but something must still be wrong and I a running out of idears.
The S/C is disconnected and blowing into the air not at the Maf. Speaks did this crazy running last night but both Maf's did this when B&C shorted.
I can only see JS is richer then Inj labs both are set for 382 Ohms.
I created this log today before sending out the Maf for repair. I made sure all the vacuum leaks are taken care of, I have a new ICV and Temp II sensor.
The Inj labs AF shows everything spot on while in my garage warmed up. The JS AF shows a rich condition.
I ran two sets of tests test 5 Diagnostic port B&C jumped did the same thing on both Mafs almost stalling even tried adjusting the idle but it will not remain stable.
Test 6 is with the Ox sen disconnected it went rich but did not stall.
Porken advised me to do these tests but something must still be wrong and I a running out of idears.
The S/C is disconnected and blowing into the air not at the Maf. Speaks did this crazy running last night but both Maf's did this when B&C shorted.
I can only see JS is richer then Inj labs both are set for 382 Ohms.
Super busy, yesterday and today. Won't get a chance to look at the logs until tomorrow...
03-29-2011, 11:51 AM
#75
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GO back and read Porken's post(s) 46 and 57. Sounds like you are still shorting the B->C and disconnecting the NB02 at the same time, which he is telling you not to do.
If you have test smoke pouring out of the crank breather then you have communication between the intake and the crankcase. Under boost you will be trying to pressurize the crankcase and this is a bad thing, as well as make the car run like **** under boost (rich condition). The intake and crankcase need to be completely isolated from one another.
Send the data logs to info@murf928.com
If you have test smoke pouring out of the crank breather then you have communication between the intake and the crankcase. Under boost you will be trying to pressurize the crankcase and this is a bad thing, as well as make the car run like **** under boost (rich condition). The intake and crankcase need to be completely isolated from one another.
Send the data logs to info@murf928.com